The things that lead to the Rams offensive woes (a lot of hindsight in this thread)

[fearsomefour]

Quick (who?!?) was a head scratcher for me. Shoulda been AJeffery. Seriously, I was having Deaean Jackson flashbacks.

Pead was a head scratcher, shoulda been BWagoner or Kendricks (and getting Rok Watkins in the 5th didn't make up for it).

2014 shoulda taken Garaopolo in the 2nd or some QB in the 4th (Mettenberger?) instead of Mo Alexander. If memory serves, if we'd stayed put with our 2nd, we'd have had an extra 5th. Don't even remember what QB we wasted that 6th round pick on.

Mason coulda been Trai Turner or Gabe Jackson.

Whiff on Barrett Jones, including the continued faith in him. I guess it was just a 4th but... still... WHIFF.

----------------------------

I unearthed these gems for another thread... we loved Bulger so much that we skipped...
Jay Cutler to pick Tye Hill
Matt Ryan to pick Chris Long
Mark Sanchez to pick Jason Smith
Aaron Rodgers to pick Alex Barron

This is interesting now that we have historical perspective. We loved Bradford so much that we skipped
Blake Bortles to pick Greg Robinson.

History will tell on that one. Rams might go a long time before having another shot at an elite qb.

We had so much faith in Bradford's health that we didn't bother with Garaopolo or Mettenberger (or Kirk Cousins or Russell Wilson).

That is called drafting for need.
Bulger was a great QB for a bit (don't want to get into a Bulger debate)....when you need a LT and can draft a highly rated one like Barron was why draft a QB that is going to sit?
I understand what you are saying but looking at things like this in a vacuum serves no purpose really. Every team could do it and every team could put together a team a Pro-Bowlers they by passed.
Every team could say they could have Brady starting now with Russell Wilson as their backup.

 

[fearsomefour]

The only pick that REALLY bothers me is the Brian Quick pick. I just didn't think a team coming off a 2 win season and an offense that ranked last in the league could afford to draft a project WR that high.

I'm concerned with the Robinson pick.

I contend that overall they've drafted well, better than most, and i spelled it out comprehensively and with an out-of-the-box view HERE a couple weeks ago. So many teams miss badly, or fail to consistently draft impact players or even solid starters. One has to look at the big picture around the league instead of focusing in on the Peads, Quicks, Tavon trade-ups, and who we passed on. Unfortunately the point was lost on most, amidst all the myopic torches and pitchforks.

I liked the Quick pick.
I still think Quick should be resigned going forward.

 

[Merlin]

What were the Texans thinking there. Look at Fitz's 2014 numbers and tell me how they could reasonably think Hoyer and Mallet would do better. Houston is a playoff team with a bad QB. Their fans have to be upset. Good move by the Jets to get a solid QB. Fitz ain't a star and is a fringe starter, but I would love to have him over Foles.

Sadly, I believe Fitz would look just like Foles in this offense. Foles has just fallen apart, dude has zero confidence and his fundamentals are garbage. He is about equivalent to Fitz with the right pieces around him.

 

[Merlin]

The only pick that REALLY bothers me is the Brian Quick pick. I just didn't think a team coming off a 2 win season and an offense that ranked last in the league could afford to draft a project WR that high.

I'm concerned with the Robinson pick.

I think Fish and Snead learned an important lesson with both of those guys in terms of taking raw players high. It just isn't worthwhile to use draft capital of that value when you don't get return on the player until year 3 or 4. If you look at this past draft, they seemed to correct that and if they are kept by Kroenke I genuinely hope that is a trend they stick to.

 

[dieterbrock]

Well I always felt that the Rams did a lousy job in bringing in a Vet QB to be a backup/mentor to Bradford. I cant remember who was available when, but the revolving door of backup QB doesnt help a young WR/TE core.
Talk about lack of continuity. Heck, I would have been fine had they kept Kellen Clemens around.
Lots of veterans on D, C-Long and JL55 but on the o side the closest thing was/is Rodger Saffold.
Look at Matt Hasselbeck in Indy for instance. Sure it helps the team this year on the field, but look what it does for Luck to watch while hes out

 

[LACHAMP46]

is that almost nothing Snisher have done to attempt to improve the offense has worked........I almost feel sorry for the guy. It's not like he hasn't addressed the offensive side of the ball...even if they didn't address it in ways a lot of fans agree with.

Kinda a tough spot for Snisher....They have drafted well...but some of the offensive misses stand out...If they only had targeted some O-Line earlier...just one or two key pieces (added every year)...and a QB...just one good one...I'd still keep the skilled position players, as is...

we still aren't far from fixing this....

 

[FRO]

For my money and in order of importance:

1. OC hires. Fisher undoubtedly thought Schotty was on the verge of being the next great OC in this league and at the time was thought very highly of in league circles. So it is hard to question the hire even though I loathed it. But the real issue is Cigs let him down when he had an opportunity to get it right. And who knows, maybe he makes things hard on Cigs too with his defensive mindset, however I do think Fish can be a great head coach if he'd just get the effin OC hire right. That has been (outside of Dinger) and continues to be his biggest weakness as a head coach.

2. Injuries. It sounds like an excuse but Fish suffered significant injuries to QB and OL that adversely affected the team's ability to win. Many of them are self inflicted from signing and relying on guys like Jake Long and Roger Saffold, not to mention not drafting or bringing in a better backup QB option after Bradford missed that first half-year. But I gotta be fair and say that injuries to those two position groups have been significant.

3. Offensive identity. Gonna lump some different stuff in here in regards to pieces being added that don't fit. Cook, for starters, does not fit a power offense which Fisher has said he wants. Signing him to that big a contract based on upside was ridiculous when he cannot even take out a DB on a run play, plus he's got some of the worst hands I've ever seen for a guy who retains a roster spot due to his speed and athleticism. Just terrible man and even worse they still start the dude. Austin was a pick I loved, but he isn't really a fit for a power offense either. Only guy they brought in on offense prior to this last draft who was an actual fit was Quick and he was so raw that it was a ridiculous stretch to take him in round 2. Gurley clearly was a great fit, but it hurts that they couldn't have made that good a pick prior to year 4 for this offense.

4. Not starting earlier on the OL. Burning the occasional pick on guys like Rok Watkins in round 4 is not really addressing the OL. If I were starting somewhere as a head coach with a QB that I think is a franchise guy the first thing I do is burn some draft real estate surrounding him with big uglies. This allows for you to benefit from the OL picks while you're still the head coach, as they settle in over their first couple years. It's a "GM 101" type thing IMO. Even if you don't have the QB it is wise to draft some OL pieces to ensure the line has what they need first. Going with old FA types is very risky, and Fish got burned by it.

Point number 3 is the root cause of the offensive woes. A power run team picks linemen over playmakers. We picked playmakers over linemen.

 

[Athos]

Point number 3 is the root cause of the offensive woes. A power run team picks linemen over playmakers. We picked playmakers over linemen.

The O problems are many fold. Maybe Fisher wanted a power run scheme, hence the Shotty hire...

But nothing made sense. Looking at it, drafting Quick, Pead, Givens, Austin and bringing in Cook seemed designed to run a scheme Bradford would excel at. Shot gun.

But those picks flamed out or didn't work. And then Fisher gives up on the shotgun O entirely after a few games. Doesn't really give it a have to work.

But then, what does he expect after signing a LT superior in run protection than pass pro.

He's compounded the issue by vascillating between schemes until seemingly deciding on a power run with Gurely and guys better at run blocking than pass blocking.

Should have picked a scheme, gotten the right players and coaches for it, and stuck with it. Shotty and modern O don't go hand in hand. Now we have parts that don't gel in the scheme he wants.

Probably another reason OC don't wanna come here. Fisher will freak out if a new system doesn't work right away and take the reigns away. Not an env to be in.

 

[junkman]

That is called drafting for need.
Bulger was a great QB for a bit (don't want to get into a Bulger debate)....when you need a LT and can draft a highly rated one like Barron was why draft a QB that is going to sit?
I understand what you are saying but looking at things like this in a vacuum serves no purpose really. Every team could do it and every team could put together a team a Pro-Bowlers they by passed.
Every team could say they could have Brady starting now with Russell Wilson as their backup.

My point isn't so much the 20/20 pro bowler hindsight thing. At every position, you need your starter and the next guy up. At QB, this needs to be a pretty darn good guy, 'cuz you'll set your team back by years if you don't have a next guy ready.

IE

Martz had Bulger waiting behind Warner, and the transition was solid. Bulger was ready to step in and performed admirably. Kudos to Martz for that. But nobody drafted / developed anyone behind Bulger. So in 2007 when Bulger was already starting to do his battered QB thing, Rams had nobody to step in. Bradford was the emergency starter when he replaced Bulger. No time to develop. No other choice. Same thing with Foles, no safety net (Keenum?). It's possible we could have Mannion starting at some point, but he would not have benefited from player development time.

But look at the Aaron Rogers pick for instance. Green Bay still had Favre when he was picked.
New England still has Brady and has cycled through a bunch of "next guy ups" e.g. Cassell and now have Garrapolo. Heck, New England had Drew Bledsoe when they drafted Brady and Brady sat on the bench for a year.
Denver has Manning, but has Osweiler waiting in the wings.

And so forth.

That's the kind of forward thinkingness that keeps teams solid for long periods of time. Having a system. Solid scouting for players that fit that system. Player development within the system. When players cycle out, you have the next man up.

At no position is this more important than QB. And in that respect, the Rams including the current Snisher regime has totally failed.

 

[thirteen28]

Picking Brian Schottenheimer over Hue Jackson
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/could-hue-jackson-join-jeff-fisher-in-st-louis/

Jackson is one of the better OCs in the league and will probably be a HC next year. He helped develop Joe Flacco. Schottenheimer was a failure in his time here.

You could have stopped right there as far as I'm concerned.

Some of the other things are out of JF's control (Bradford's knee, OL injuries), others, while not panning out as well wouldn't have necessarily prevented the O from being decent (Jared Cook), and some of those I just don't agree on (I think Tavon is a great asset, and if Cigs can figure out how to use him, imagine what a great coordinator could do ... and as for GRob, I'll wait until next year for a verdict because I expected a slow development time).

The first thing you listed though is where the root of the problem lies - it's a systemic problem, and it won't change until either JF is gone or until he takes a hard, John-Robinson-In-The-Mid-80's type look in the mirror and decides he needs to change his approach at a fundamental level. Had he brought in Jackson instead of Schotty -and just as importantly, let him run his offense - I think things would be a lot different around here even many or most of the other things were the same.

 

[thirteen28]

I liked the Quick pick.
I still think Quick should be resigned going forward.

I didn't like the Quick pick at first. But I loved it for the first six games or so last year. What happened to that guy?

 

[dieterbrock]

But look at the Aaron Rogers pick for instance. Green Bay still had Favre when he was picked.
New England still has Brady and has cycled through a bunch of "next guy ups" e.g. Cassell and now have Garrapolo. Heck, New England had Drew Bledsoe when they drafted Brady and Brady sat on the bench for a year.
Denver has Manning, but has Osweiler waiting in the wings.

Problem is that the Rams dont have the starter which would allow them to have a guy "waiting in the wings"

 

[WvuIN02]

Problem is that the Rams dont have the starter which would allow them to have a guy "waiting in the wings"

Which makes it even more striking. Even teams with HoF QBs understand the importance that they still find and develop good backups. When you dont even have a quality QB to begin with, you dont really have the luxury of, well, luxury draft picks. Bradford was never proven. Stinks when guys like Wilson, Carr, Teddy B etc were all there for the taking.

 

[dieterbrock]

Which makes it even more striking. Even teams with HoF QBs understand the importance that they still find and develop good backups. When you dont even have a quality QB to begin with, you dont really have the luxury of, well, luxury draft picks. Bradford was never proven. Stinks when guys like Wilson, Carr, Teddy B etc were all there for the taking.

What gets lost in the sauce too was Bradford's ridiculous rookie contract. Sure it's easy to say now that we should have drafted another QB when we had the chance(s) to, but it does require a bit of selective memory to leave out that albatross. But yeah, since its a hindsight thread its all fair game. Not counting Hekker, we've had what, 7 different QB take snaps in Fisher 3+ seasons? Pretty hard to have any continuity

 

[DR RAM]

I liked, and argued for Glenn too, thought he was a first rounder. Oh well, the past is the past. I'm more interested in seeing what we do in the future.

 

[fearsomefour]

My point isn't so much the 20/20 pro bowler hindsight thing. At every position, you need your starter and the next guy up. At QB, this needs to be a pretty darn good guy, 'cuz you'll set your team back by years if you don't have a next guy ready.

IE

Martz had Bulger waiting behind Warner, and the transition was solid. Bulger was ready to step in and performed admirably. Kudos to Martz for that. But nobody drafted / developed anyone behind Bulger. So in 2007 when Bulger was already starting to do his battered QB thing, Rams had nobody to step in. Bradford was the emergency starter when he replaced Bulger. No time to develop. No other choice. Same thing with Foles, no safety net (Keenum?). It's possible we could have Mannion starting at some point, but he would not have benefited from player development time.

But look at the Aaron Rogers pick for instance. Green Bay still had Favre when he was picked.
New England still has Brady and has cycled through a bunch of "next guy ups" e.g. Cassell and now have Garrapolo. Heck, New England had Drew Bledsoe when they drafted Brady and Brady sat on the bench for a year.
Denver has Manning, but has Osweiler waiting in the wings.

And so forth.

That's the kind of forward thinkingness that keeps teams solid for long periods of time. Having a system. Solid scouting for players that fit that system. Player development within the system. When players cycle out, you have the next man up.

At no position is this more important than QB. And in that respect, the Rams including the current Snisher regime has totally failed.

Hard to argue with any of that.

 

[FRO]

The O problems are many fold. Maybe Fisher wanted a power run scheme, hence the Shotty hire...

But nothing made sense. Looking at it, drafting Quick, Pead, Givens, Austin and bringing in Cook seemed designed to run a scheme Bradford would excel at. Shot gun.

But those picks flamed out or didn't work. And then Fisher gives up on the shotgun O entirely after a few games. Doesn't really give it a have to work.

But then, what does he expect after signing a LT superior in run protection than pass pro.

He's compounded the issue by vascillating between schemes until seemingly deciding on a power run with Gurely and guys better at run blocking than pass blocking.

Should have picked a scheme, gotten the right players and coaches for it, and stuck with it. Shotty and modern O don't go hand in hand. Now we have parts that don't gel in the scheme he wants.

Probably another reason OC don't wanna come here. Fisher will freak out if a new system doesn't work right away and take the reigns away. Not an env to be in.

Exactly. He knew his defensive scheme and picked guys that fit it. That's why the bust rate is so low. Had he decided from the start that we are going to build a nasty defense and we are going to run the ball down people's throats he would have built the team differently. Starting in the 2012 second round.

First, you go lineman over playmaker in a ground and pound system. So Cordy Glenn over Brian Quick. Secondly you don't trade up for a 5'8" 170 pound receiver in a big physical offense. So instead of trading up, stay where you are at and pick Hopkins who the Rams were very high on, and then you still have your second rounder to pick Warford. Cordy Glenn and Larry Warford are two perfect fits in a ground and pound attack. Then in 2014 you feel Robinson fits the ground and pound, so they draft him. I'm against picking someone that raw at 2 overall, but it is what it is. In 2015 you can get Havenstien to play RT. I don't remember if there were any good C options, but let's say there weren't. 2015 your line would have been:
LT Robinson
LG Glenn
C Barnes
RG Warford
RT Havenstien

That's an improvement, plus we would have more cap space with no need to resign oft injured Saffold. We would have a freed up third round pick to fill another area, or you could draft Brown anyways. The not having an offensive idenity screwed us in picking guys that fit a scheme. Instead it seemed like we picked just random guys hoping to somehow make a scheme work. Successful teams have a defined scheme and pick players that fit that scheme.

 

[FRO]

I didn't like the Quick pick at first. But I loved it for the first six games or so last year. What happened to that guy?

It could be one of few things:
- It was a flash in the pan.
- The OC change hurt him because he can't pick up things quickly.
- Austin Davis is the only QB that he can have success with
- His injury has harmed him mentally. Too scared to fight in traffic.

 

[FRO]

My point isn't so much the 20/20 pro bowler hindsight thing. At every position, you need your starter and the next guy up. At QB, this needs to be a pretty darn good guy, 'cuz you'll set your team back by years if you don't have a next guy ready.

IE

Martz had Bulger waiting behind Warner, and the transition was solid. Bulger was ready to step in and performed admirably. Kudos to Martz for that. But nobody drafted / developed anyone behind Bulger. So in 2007 when Bulger was already starting to do his battered QB thing, Rams had nobody to step in. Bradford was the emergency starter when he replaced Bulger. No time to develop. No other choice. Same thing with Foles, no safety net (Keenum?). It's possible we could have Mannion starting at some point, but he would not have benefited from player development time.

But look at the Aaron Rogers pick for instance. Green Bay still had Favre when he was picked.
New England still has Brady and has cycled through a bunch of "next guy ups" e.g. Cassell and now have Garrapolo. Heck, New England had Drew Bledsoe when they drafted Brady and Brady sat on the bench for a year.
Denver has Manning, but has Osweiler waiting in the wings.

And so forth.

That's the kind of forward thinkingness that keeps teams solid for long periods of time. Having a system. Solid scouting for players that fit that system. Player development within the system. When players cycle out, you have the next man up.

At no position is this more important than QB. And in that respect, the Rams including the current Snisher regime has totally failed.

What it boils down to is Martz didn't do a good job drafting, so holes started opening up on the roster. That lead to drafting to fill starting holes. It got worse under Linehan. Spags was slightly better than Linehan. Fisher has done a great job filling holes defensively and we have some good young players developing behind starters now. You're right great teams stay great because they draft well and give young guys time to develop. Our problem is we needed rookies to start immediately. Like 3rd day rookies.

 

[MTRamsFan]

Yeah.

He initially overestimated his worth, and the Rams were willing to pay him. Just not at the ungodly amount he wanted. Maybe that pissed him off, and maybe he felt threatened when they drafted Havenstein. Who knows.

Could be too that he knew, in his mind, this team was going to continue to struggle and jumped ship thinking the Chargers were on the verge of being very good. Well how's that working for you now Joe?