Rams' Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot/ESPN

[RamBall]

I understand the rule, but dont understand why it is Joyners fault that TB slid after he saw Joyner start to go down to make the tackle. It is pretty obvious when you watch the replay, especially in slow motion, that Joyner tried to avoid making contact once TB started to slide. We have all seen flags picked up after it has been determined that the QB initiated his slide after contact was eminent, that is exactly what should have happened yesterday. TB chose to take the hit PERIOD. Did he do it for the 15 extra yards? We may never know, but he did less to avoid contact than Joyner did.

 

[RamBall]

I am looking at it as take the best player (starting QB) out by illegal hits and vola! a competitive advantage to win the game. Tape video signals and take air out of footballs and vola! a competitive advantage to win the game.

I dont think GW ever told guys to deliver illegal hits, he may have had an incentive program that paid more for highlight reel hits, but to instruct players to deliver an illegal hit would be pretty stupid. Some penalties may be exceptable due to the aggressive nature of his D scheme, but personal fouls are never exceptable thay give up too much yardage and an automatic 1st down.

 

[RAGRam]

View: https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/663826158635630592

 

[Rambitious1]

Rams' Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot
By Kevin Seifert

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/p...-merits-major-nfl-discipline-for-illegal-shot

The NFL has a thick rulebook and a detailed fine schedule, making it difficult to imagine how both won't be used to issue a significant penalty this week to St. Louis Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner.

Joyner, of course, delivered the illegal shot that knocked Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater unconscious Sunday at TCF Bank Stadium. I was shocked at how divided social media was on the play, but there seems no doubt to me that Joyner violated NFL rules protecting players who slide, and his hit caused Bridgewater's concussion.

Depending on how the NFL classifies the infraction, Joyner will be fined at least $8,681, but likely more. If Bridgewater is deemed to have been a "defenseless player," a term that seems created for the position he was in, Joyner's minimum fine will be $23,152. Because he has no known history of such hits, Joyner is unlikely to be suspended.

Teddy Bridgewater
Teddy Bridgewater left Sunday's game with a concussion after a hit from Lamarcus Joyner.

Let's take a closer look at the play. Bridgewater scrambled 5 yards for a first down and then initiated a feet-first slide with 13 minutes, 18 seconds remaining in the game. Joyner dove at him with his left forearm arched at a 90-degree angle. I received multiple tweets from those who thought Joyner barely made contact, but the replay shows his upper left arm hit Bridgewater's facemask, causing the helmet to bounce violently off the turf.

Bridgewater was diagnosed with a concussion and must pass through the league's mandatory concussion protocol in order to be eligible to play in the Vikings' game Sunday at the Oakland Raiders.

Referee Ronald Torbert penalized Joyner 15 yards for unnecessary roughness, and the rules in this area seem clear. According to Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 (d)(1), "A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide." The rule goes on to note that contact is legal if a runner has "already committed himself and the contact is unavoidable." But even in those cases, the rule notes, it is a penalty if "the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner."

Joyner told reporters after the game that he had already "launched" when Bridgewater started sliding, a debatable contention. But even if that were the case, the nature of the ensuing contact not only was illegal but also destroyed the precise tenet of the NFL's campaign to protect quarterbacks who are willing to surrender further yardage in order to avoid big hits.

Whether Joyner intended to hurt Bridgewater is irrelevant, although there was little doubt what Vikings coach Mike Zimmer thought of it. Zimmer noted the "history" of Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, whose theatrics were a major reason the NFL pursued the "Bountygate" investigation against the New Orleans Saints in 2012. At the time, it was reported that Williams encouraged head shots that knocked quarterbacks from the game, an edict that came to be symbolized by a recording in which he told players: "Kill the head, the body will die."

Independent of whatever philosophies Williams might preach, and regardless of intent, Joyner made a big mistake. He delivered avoidable contact to the head of a player no longer trying to ward it off, causing an injury the NFL wants to prevent at every turn. There is no defending or explaining it, and the league must use its array of disciplinary options to address the infraction.

I posted this on the numbskull's web site:

Hi Kevin, you don't know what you are talking about. I too was shocked about how divided things were on the hit. I could not believe someone could be so blind as to think this hit was unusually dirty and deserving of extra discipline. But I guess if it weren't for know nothings like you, how would the rest of us knowledgable, logical people stand out.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Isn't Kevin Seifert that guy that hung out with Jarred from Subway?

 

[MountainRam]

I dont think GW ever told guys to deliver illegal hits, he may have had an incentive program that paid more for highlight reel hits, but to instruct players to deliver an illegal hit would be pretty stupid. Some penalties may be exceptable due to the aggressive nature of his D scheme, but personal fouls are never exceptable thay give up too much yardage and an automatic 1st down.

What part of "If you cut the snake’s head off, the body will die." statement from Gregg Williams is unclear?

 

[RamBill]

Mike Golic Defends Joyner and Williams

Mike Golic says even though Rams CB Lamarcus Joyner’s hit on Vikings QB Teddy Bridgewater was unfortunate, it was not a dirty play where the intent was to injure Bridgewater.

Watch Golic Talk Joyner/Williams

 

[Rmfnlt]

Williams isn't a cheater. Maybe unethical, but not a cheater at all.

Why did that make me laugh?

 

[cvramsfan]

I think he will get fined, but that was not a dirty play. I hate the slide rule, what is a "D" player supposed to do, just let the QB run and then slide? What happens when the QB needs that extra yard and he knows the "D" will let up cause he is going to slide, so he runs a couple extra yards. If they have to have the slide rule then they need to change it that if the player goes into a slide the ball is marked 5 yards back from the start of the slide. And if you slide go flat against the ground so that if the "D" player is trying to make the stop they just fly over the top of you. GET LOW if you are going to slide. They need to put the responsibility on the slider not the tackler.

 

[kurtfaulk]

If QBs don't want to get hit they should slide earlier. Running Qbs are going to get hit.

there it is. if bridgewater wasn't a greedy sob and slid a yard earlier none of this would have happened. he brought the hit onto himself by waiting to the last possible second to slide. too late. smart qbs like wilson and arod would have slid much earlier and wouldn't have been touched.

.

 

[Force16X]

You can't watch those plays in slow motion and make judgment. Watch it in real time. Joyner didn't have much time to pull up. It's football. Get over it and stop trying to weaken the game. It wasn't intentional so give him his fine and move on.

Joyner could have seriously injured Bridgewater if that was his intent. like Bowen said, a QB running is fresh meat to defenders. another poster noted that the vikings seemed to take advantage of tightroping the sidelines on punt returns as it looked as though the Rams defenders pulled up to avoid hitting the player since he was almost out of bounds. so now players have to learn how to "not tackle as well"? most of the QB's i watch always try to sneak in an extra yard or so by sliding at the last possible moment as well instead of doing so with enough distance from any defender to keep them from a late hit. the QB knows the rules and some may be willing to take a hit for the 15 yard penalty (obviously no one wants a concussion) but in a close game that's a lot of yards to get.
I dont think Joyner did that intentionally, my only question is why is there no consistency to that call ? and tying in williams to the hit is pretty asinine in my opinion. why wait that long to take TB out ? i'm sure all the Rams players know what a great QB shaun hill is.

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

the media clowns coming after joyner remind me of this video.

clowns.



.

 

[A55VA6]

If you guys heard what Rodney Harrison said on Sunday Night Football.. Fishers reply:

View: https://twitter.com/nwagoner/status/663858526704406528

 

[DR RAM]

NFL Network reported, Joyner WOULD NOT be suspended for hit.

BTW, TB thought he could play in the game last night, was he faking it? Remember how long he laid down earlier in the game???

 

[DR RAM]

If you guys heard what Rodney Harrison said on Sunday Night Football.. Fishers reply:

View: https://twitter.com/nwagoner/status/663858526704406528

Isn't one of the most fined players in NFL history? Zimm, and the whole late night crew were wrong, including the purple shirted announcer. Charles Davis was cool.

 

[SuperMan28]

What a crock. Media hasn't paid this morning much attention to us in a 15 years and it's for this.

Standard fine

Shouldn't even be a fine

 

[Selassie I]

Here's the problem with this QB slide business. It's designed to protect a player who is CLEARLY giving himself up on a play. That's what it's for.

The problem comes in when certain QB's try and get the most out of a play (go the extra mile to get the 1st for example)... and then drop to slide at the last minute to try and gain protection from the defender. Certain QBs do this all the time... the Umpa Loompa in Seadderall comes to mind and so do many "running" QBs. They slide way too late in the process... they are not CLEARLY giving up on the play. How many times have we seen some of these running QBs give the impression that they are about to slide, and then take off for more yards. I know I've seen it. Defenders have to be given a clear sign and time to pull up.

Here's my take on what I think happened on the Teddy B / Joyner play yesterday.... Teddy was wanting to make sure he got the first down on the run. He looked at the defender coming at him and thought, this Joyner dude doesn't look very big at all,,, I think I can take him. Teddy started feeling bullet proof from his eyeball test on Joyner. He was getting close to the 1st,,, so rather than CLEARLY slide so that the defender could pull up... Teddy took the extra mile on the play and went into his slide too late for Joyner to pull up completely. You can't slide late in the process and expect to be given complete protection. These plays happen very very fast... in a second or two at most.

I can't believe that that Melon-Head Teddy can even be concussed. His head/helmet look abnormally large. Hell he looks like he's wearing one of the Don Beebe helmets and his shit is just normal I think. Maybe he has one of those helmets I saw someone here design for Jason Smith back a few years ago LOL. Seems like that giant dome should have bounced off that turf with no ill effects to Teddy... surprising really :heh:

 

[Ballhawk]

If you guys heard what Rodney Harrison said on Sunday Night Football.. Fishers reply:

View: https://twitter.com/nwagoner/status/663858526704406528

They should talk to Trent Green about the dirtiest player in NFL history, Rodney Harrison!

 

[Ballhawk]

If you guys heard what Rodney Harrison said on Sunday Night Football.. Fishers reply:

View: https://twitter.com/nwagoner/status/663858526704406528

They should talk to Trent Green about the dirtiest player in NFL history, Rodney Harrison!

 

[Ballhawk]

If you guys heard what Rodney Harrison said on Sunday Night Football.. Fishers reply:

View: https://twitter.com/nwagoner/status/663858526704406528

They should talk to Trent Green about the dirtiest player in NFL history, Rodney Harrison!

 

[Ballhawk]

The page screwed up and tripled my post but it was worth repeating!

 

[jrry32]

Knockout blow to Teddy Bridgewater wasn't Bountygate 2.0
By Matt Bowen
ESPN Insider

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...ikings-qb-teddy-bridgewater-bountygate-20-nfl

Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater knew the drill when he pulled the ball down to run early in the fourth quarter on Sunday versus the St. Louis Rams. All quarterbacks do. Pick up the first down there, add a couple of rushing yards to the stat column and then slide, dive, whatever. Just get the yardage, get down and live to see the next play.

But Bridgewater still paid for it. And the reality is quarterbacks often will in a league where the QB is the ultimate target, regardless of who is coaching the defense.

The hit? Yeah, it looked nasty. A vicious shot from Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner, delivered right as Bridgewater was sliding, or giving himself up. Put that thing in slow motion and you can see the quarterback's head snap down on the turf. It knocked him right out of the game. He was finished.

Immediately after the hit, there was talk of another Gregg Williams' coached defense intentionally targeting players. That hit from Joyner was dirty, right? I get it. The Bountygate tales were going to surface given Williams' past history in the league. I've been on a defense with Williams running the show, and I've seen the bounties.

But before we go pin the hit on Williams, a coach I should admit I respect as much as any I've played for, let's just be honest about the situation from an on-field standpoint.

Williams is a master motivator, a true teacher, a veteran coach who gets the most out of his guys. And his defenses do push the envelope. They walk the line. Always. But to try and pair that with the Joyner hit? Nah. That's a reach. Bridgewater wasn't put on some pregame list with dollar signs next to his name in the program. That's a lazy narrative, a reach to cover up the real story in the NFL. The truth is, if we didn't know what we do about Williams from Bountygate, we wouldn't be able to discern the intent of his defenses from any other team.


This is a fact: Quarterbacks are always targeted, regardless of who is running the defense that day. Take them out, within or on the edge of the rules, and your chances of winning increase dramatically.

Plays like this are easy to critique from the couch or even in the stands. You see a quarterback go down, especially when the head is involved, and the outrage floods social media. Everyone knows the ramifications of concussions, and everyone is an expert, just waiting to throw out opinions, to gain a voice on a hit that doesn't mesh with their standards of clean, ethical play.

When Bridgewater started to slide, everything went wrong. It was the imperfect combination of NFL speed and a QB in the open field. If you want to say Joyner was intentionally trying to bounce Bridgewater's head off the turf like a basketball, then go with it. I probably won't change your mind, and that's fine. But I just don't believe he was looking to make contact with the helmet of the quarterback. That wasn't his plan when he broke downhill and prepared himself to deliver the hit. The rest? Well, it happens when angles change at the last second.

Yes, it was a brutal hit. But put yourself in the shoes of Joyner, or any defender in the NFL that sees the quarterback tuck that ball to run. I've been there, and regardless of who your coach is, your mindset is clear: That's fresh meat in the open field. If you have a shot -- a legitimate shot -- then you drop your pads and put it on him. Make it physical, too. That's not meathead stuff here, it's just football the way you've been trained to play. And while slow motion tells you one thing, in the pros, it happens so fast, like lightning, that defenders just can't pull off in time to save a guy.

I've watched the hit from Joyner over and over. And I've been in those situations as a player. There was an opportunity there for Joyner -- leading with his shoulder -- to put Bridgewater down, to let him know that running the ball against his defense wasn't the best idea going forward. "Next time," Joyner is thinking, "just hang in the pocket and make the throw, or we will take you out." That's the message you are trying to send as a defensive player.

Nice? No, it's not. But that's the reality of the NFL.

ESPN.com NFL analyst Matt Bowen played seven seasons in the NFL.

Somebody that actually played the game.