Rams' Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot/ESPN

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

RamBill

Legend
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
8,874
Rams' Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot
By Kevin Seifert

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/p...-merits-major-nfl-discipline-for-illegal-shot

The NFL has a thick rulebook and a detailed fine schedule, making it difficult to imagine how both won't be used to issue a significant penalty this week to St. Louis Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner.

Joyner, of course, delivered the illegal shot that knocked Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater unconscious Sunday at TCF Bank Stadium. I was shocked at how divided social media was on the play, but there seems no doubt to me that Joyner violated NFL rules protecting players who slide, and his hit caused Bridgewater's concussion.

Depending on how the NFL classifies the infraction, Joyner will be fined at least $8,681, but likely more. If Bridgewater is deemed to have been a "defenseless player," a term that seems created for the position he was in, Joyner's minimum fine will be $23,152. Because he has no known history of such hits, Joyner is unlikely to be suspended.

Teddy Bridgewater
Teddy Bridgewater left Sunday's game with a concussion after a hit from Lamarcus Joyner.

Let's take a closer look at the play. Bridgewater scrambled 5 yards for a first down and then initiated a feet-first slide with 13 minutes, 18 seconds remaining in the game. Joyner dove at him with his left forearm arched at a 90-degree angle. I received multiple tweets from those who thought Joyner barely made contact, but the replay shows his upper left arm hit Bridgewater's facemask, causing the helmet to bounce violently off the turf.

Bridgewater was diagnosed with a concussion and must pass through the league's mandatory concussion protocol in order to be eligible to play in the Vikings' game Sunday at the Oakland Raiders.

Referee Ronald Torbert penalized Joyner 15 yards for unnecessary roughness, and the rules in this area seem clear. According to Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 (d)(1), "A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide." The rule goes on to note that contact is legal if a runner has "already committed himself and the contact is unavoidable." But even in those cases, the rule notes, it is a penalty if "the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner."

Joyner told reporters after the game that he had already "launched" when Bridgewater started sliding, a debatable contention. But even if that were the case, the nature of the ensuing contact not only was illegal but also destroyed the precise tenet of the NFL's campaign to protect quarterbacks who are willing to surrender further yardage in order to avoid big hits.

Whether Joyner intended to hurt Bridgewater is irrelevant, although there was little doubt what Vikings coach Mike Zimmer thought of it. Zimmer noted the "history" of Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, whose theatrics were a major reason the NFL pursued the "Bountygate" investigation against the New Orleans Saints in 2012. At the time, it was reported that Williams encouraged head shots that knocked quarterbacks from the game, an edict that came to be symbolized by a recording in which he told players: "Kill the head, the body will die."

Independent of whatever philosophies Williams might preach, and regardless of intent, Joyner made a big mistake. He delivered avoidable contact to the head of a player no longer trying to ward it off, causing an injury the NFL wants to prevent at every turn. There is no defending or explaining it, and the league must use its array of disciplinary options to address the infraction.
 

RamBill

Legend
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
8,874
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
Knockout blow to Teddy Bridgewater wasn't Bountygate 2.0
By Matt Bowen
ESPN Insider

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...ikings-qb-teddy-bridgewater-bountygate-20-nfl

Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater knew the drill when he pulled the ball down to run early in the fourth quarter on Sunday versus the St. Louis Rams. All quarterbacks do. Pick up the first down there, add a couple of rushing yards to the stat column and then slide, dive, whatever. Just get the yardage, get down and live to see the next play.

But Bridgewater still paid for it. And the reality is quarterbacks often will in a league where the QB is the ultimate target, regardless of who is coaching the defense.

The hit? Yeah, it looked nasty. A vicious shot from Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner, delivered right as Bridgewater was sliding, or giving himself up. Put that thing in slow motion and you can see the quarterback's head snap down on the turf. It knocked him right out of the game. He was finished.

Immediately after the hit, there was talk of another Gregg Williams' coached defense intentionally targeting players. That hit from Joyner was dirty, right? I get it. The Bountygate tales were going to surface given Williams' past history in the league. I've been on a defense with Williams running the show, and I've seen the bounties.

But before we go pin the hit on Williams, a coach I should admit I respect as much as any I've played for, let's just be honest about the situation from an on-field standpoint.

Williams is a master motivator, a true teacher, a veteran coach who gets the most out of his guys. And his defenses do push the envelope. They walk the line. Always. But to try and pair that with the Joyner hit? Nah. That's a reach. Bridgewater wasn't put on some pregame list with dollar signs next to his name in the program. That's a lazy narrative, a reach to cover up the real story in the NFL. The truth is, if we didn't know what we do about Williams from Bountygate, we wouldn't be able to discern the intent of his defenses from any other team.


This is a fact: Quarterbacks are always targeted, regardless of who is running the defense that day. Take them out, within or on the edge of the rules, and your chances of winning increase dramatically.

Plays like this are easy to critique from the couch or even in the stands. You see a quarterback go down, especially when the head is involved, and the outrage floods social media. Everyone knows the ramifications of concussions, and everyone is an expert, just waiting to throw out opinions, to gain a voice on a hit that doesn't mesh with their standards of clean, ethical play.

When Bridgewater started to slide, everything went wrong. It was the imperfect combination of NFL speed and a QB in the open field. If you want to say Joyner was intentionally trying to bounce Bridgewater's head off the turf like a basketball, then go with it. I probably won't change your mind, and that's fine. But I just don't believe he was looking to make contact with the helmet of the quarterback. That wasn't his plan when he broke downhill and prepared himself to deliver the hit. The rest? Well, it happens when angles change at the last second.

Yes, it was a brutal hit. But put yourself in the shoes of Joyner, or any defender in the NFL that sees the quarterback tuck that ball to run. I've been there, and regardless of who your coach is, your mindset is clear: That's fresh meat in the open field. If you have a shot -- a legitimate shot -- then you drop your pads and put it on him. Make it physical, too. That's not meathead stuff here, it's just football the way you've been trained to play. And while slow motion tells you one thing, in the pros, it happens so fast, like lightning, that defenders just can't pull off in time to save a guy.

I've watched the hit from Joyner over and over. And I've been in those situations as a player. There was an opportunity there for Joyner -- leading with his shoulder -- to put Bridgewater down, to let him know that running the ball against his defense wasn't the best idea going forward. "Next time," Joyner is thinking, "just hang in the pocket and make the throw, or we will take you out." That's the message you are trying to send as a defensive player.

Nice? No, it's not. But that's the reality of the NFL.

ESPN.com NFL analyst Matt Bowen played seven seasons in the NFL.
 

FRO

Legend
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
5,308
You can't watch those plays in slow motion and make judgment. Watch it in real time. Joyner didn't have much time to pull up. It's football. Get over it and stop trying to weaken the game. It wasn't intentional so give him his fine and move on.
 

snackdaddy

Who's your snackdaddy?
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
10,908
Name
Charlie
I know Joyner isn't a dirty player. What happened was not intentional. But he'll have to be fined heavily for a temporary lapse in judgment. But I still believe once a quarterback turns from passer to runner he does so at his own peril. Protect him as a passer and its fine. He can be vulnerable. But running with it? I don't care for that rule.
 

rhinobean

Hall of Fame
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
2,152
Name
Bob
Don't believe that Joyner intended to knock out Bridgewater! Believe he intended to tackle him and couldn't avoid the result! Rules are what they are!
 

ztoben

Professional NFL Couch Analyst
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
112
Name
ztoben
Just fine him and get this whole thing in the past. Tired of hearing about it already.
 

VilleDeal

UDFA
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
87
Rams' Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot
By Kevin Seifert

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/p...-merits-major-nfl-discipline-for-illegal-shot

The NFL has a thick rulebook and a detailed fine schedule, making it difficult to imagine how both won't be used to issue a significant penalty this week to St. Louis Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner.

Joyner, of course, delivered the illegal shot that knocked Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater unconscious Sunday at TCF Bank Stadium. I was shocked at how divided social media was on the play, but there seems no doubt to me that Joyner violated NFL rules protecting players who slide, and his hit caused Bridgewater's concussion.

Depending on how the NFL classifies the infraction, Joyner will be fined at least $8,681, but likely more. If Bridgewater is deemed to have been a "defenseless player," a term that seems created for the position he was in, Joyner's minimum fine will be $23,152. Because he has no known history of such hits, Joyner is unlikely to be suspended.

Teddy Bridgewater
Teddy Bridgewater left Sunday's game with a concussion after a hit from Lamarcus Joyner.

Let's take a closer look at the play. Bridgewater scrambled 5 yards for a first down and then initiated a feet-first slide with 13 minutes, 18 seconds remaining in the game. Joyner dove at him with his left forearm arched at a 90-degree angle. I received multiple tweets from those who thought Joyner barely made contact, but the replay shows his upper left arm hit Bridgewater's facemask, causing the helmet to bounce violently off the turf.

Bridgewater was diagnosed with a concussion and must pass through the league's mandatory concussion protocol in order to be eligible to play in the Vikings' game Sunday at the Oakland Raiders.

Referee Ronald Torbert penalized Joyner 15 yards for unnecessary roughness, and the rules in this area seem clear. According to Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 (d)(1), "A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide." The rule goes on to note that contact is legal if a runner has "already committed himself and the contact is unavoidable." But even in those cases, the rule notes, it is a penalty if "the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner."

Joyner told reporters after the game that he had already "launched" when Bridgewater started sliding, a debatable contention. But even if that were the case, the nature of the ensuing contact not only was illegal but also destroyed the precise tenet of the NFL's campaign to protect quarterbacks who are willing to surrender further yardage in order to avoid big hits.

Whether Joyner intended to hurt Bridgewater is irrelevant, although there was little doubt what Vikings coach Mike Zimmer thought of it. Zimmer noted the "history" of Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, whose theatrics were a major reason the NFL pursued the "Bountygate" investigation against the New Orleans Saints in 2012. At the time, it was reported that Williams encouraged head shots that knocked quarterbacks from the game, an edict that came to be symbolized by a recording in which he told players: "Kill the head, the body will die."

Independent of whatever philosophies Williams might preach, and regardless of intent, Joyner made a big mistake. He delivered avoidable contact to the head of a player no longer trying to ward it off, causing an injury the NFL wants to prevent at every turn. There is no defending or explaining it, and the league must use its array of disciplinary options to address the infraction.
 

VilleDeal

UDFA
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
87
Ask a real football player not associated with the vikings or that division... Just like mike said on m&m on your channel, it's as uncontienable as the play itself to insinuate that it was on purpose OR taught. Fcol
 

PowayRamFan

Hall of Fame
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
2,359
Might as well water it down some more and make it a rule that the QB can't run the ball, period. There's been too many bruised vaginas already, we have to do SOMETHING.
 

RAGRam

Pro Bowler
Joined
Mar 14, 2015
Messages
1,150
Does anyone know the exact time from initiation of slide to first contact? I know it's less than a second, and I have a way of calculating it once I get home, just wondering if it's been done already.
 

thirteen28

I like pizza.
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
8,368
Name
Erik
You can't watch those plays in slow motion and make judgment. Watch it in real time. Joyner didn't have much time to pull up. It's football. Get over it and stop trying to weaken the game. It wasn't intentional so give him his fine and move on.

Actually watching it in slow motion helps Joyner's case. You can barely discern the time that Bridgewater started to slide and the time that Joyner went low. And in contrast to Kevin Seifert's insinuation that Joyner intended to deliver a forearm blow (he wrote " Joyner dove at him with his left forearm arched at a 90-degree angle"), Joyner actually pulls his forearm into his body in an attempt to avoid it contacting with Bridgewater when he realizes they are going to collide.

Yes, I'm a homer for the Rams but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. This was not a dirty hit, it was just an unfortunate case of bad timing that can't be avoided at NFL speeds.
 

LesBaker

Mr. Savant
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
17,460
Name
Les
Some people aren't getting it.

It's an illegal hit, it's against the rules. He'd be getting a fine and a penalty even if Bridgewater didn't get hurt. The reason it's illegal is because during a slide a player can't really protect themselves.

He launched and led with his elbow. He knows better.
 

thirteen28

I like pizza.
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
8,368
Name
Erik
Some people aren't getting it.

It's an illegal hit, it's against the rules. He'd be getting a fine and a penalty even if Bridgewater didn't get hurt. The reason it's illegal is because during a slide a player can't really protect themselves.

He launched and led with his elbow. He knows better.

You didn't watch the play if you think he led with his elbow. Go watch the video again. He clearly pulled his arm inward when he realized he couldn't avoid making contact with Bridgewater, and it was his upper arm that actually contacted Bridgewater's helmet.

Illegal or not, it wasn't intentional and it wasn't a dirty hit.
 

MountainRam

Rookie
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Messages
324
You didn't watch the play if you think he led with his elbow. Go watch the video again. He clearly pulled his arm inward when he realized he couldn't avoid making contact with Bridgewater, and it was his upper arm that actually contacted Bridgewater's helmet.

Illegal or not, it wasn't intentional and it wasn't a dirty hit.

I am with you. I thought hayes going low on Bridgewater was dirty not this one. Someone is trying to impress and getting in good graces of Gregg Williams.
 

LesBaker

Mr. Savant
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
17,460
Name
Les
You didn't watch the play if you think he led with his elbow. Go watch the video again. He clearly pulled his arm inward when he realized he couldn't avoid making contact with Bridgewater, and it was his upper arm that actually contacted Bridgewater's helmet.

Illegal or not, it wasn't intentional and it wasn't a dirty hit.

Don't tell me I didn't watch it, just because you disagree with my opinion. And by the way it's pretty universal what he did was wrong. What do you see in this picture? Go watch the video again.........

It was intentional, otherwise he wouldn't have done it, he could have pulled up and he didn't. And that's why the fine will be a big one.

addon.php


Now I don't think he is a dirty player, or that his intent was to injure Bridgewater. But for sure he meant to hit him because he launched after Bridgewater started to slide and whacked him.
 

OldSchool

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
39,085
If I'm a Rams player captain I'm starting a media blackout for all these idiots calling our players and coaches dirty. These tin foil hat wearing idiots really need to wake up.
 

Oldgeek

I'm old and can't wait another 20 years for a SB W
Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
640
Name
Steve
If QBs don't want to get hit they should slide earlier. Running Qbs are going to get hit.
 

MountainRam

Rookie
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Messages
324
We all equally hate BeliChick since he is a proven cheater. Same with Gregg Williams who is also a proven cheater. If I am a Rams player or coach, I would do what BeliChick does: "We are moving onto Bears"

Nothing more Nothing less
 

FRO

Legend
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
5,308
We all equally hate BeliChick since he is a proven cheater. Same with Gregg Williams who is also a proven cheater. If I am a Rams player or coach, I would do what BeliChick does: "We are moving onto Bears"

Nothing more Nothing less
Williams isn't a cheater. Maybe unethical, but not a cheater at all.
 

HE WITH HORNS

Hall of Fame
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
3,848
If you are going to slide at the very last split second, you are putting yourself in danger. If that extra yard is so important, tuck yourself down like a running back, and you are less likely to get hurt.