New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[dbrooks25]

So nobody wants to take a stab at predicting who the NFL would choose if all projects make it to the finish line? It's got to be better than arguing about who sued who.

If all projects make it to the finish line, I honestly think it will be the Carson project in L.A. with the Rams staying in St. Louis. This is assuming that we're not talking about the San Diego and Oakland getting anything done on the stadium front. I just can't see the Rams getting the ok to move if St. Louis has the financing and land wrapped up along with the Carson project getting there as well. BUT, this is the NFL we're talking about.

 

[iced]

It was a point of emphasis, you said that the claim couldn't be made that Chargers fans feel alienated or screwed over, and as evidence that is incorrect I offered the fact that San Diego Chargers fans feel so alienated and screwed over that they have sought legal action to remove Fabiani from negotiations because they feel he is both interfering with said negotiations, and because they feel his comments are often insulting to the city.

Saying that it can't be said that San Diego feel alienated or screwed over is wrong and saying that those lawsuits are in anyway similar is wrong as well.

you seriously think what Kroenke is doing/has done to the fanbase compares in any way shape or form to Spanos?

I guess comparing Spanos to Kroenke is just as wrong as those law suits - Kroenke's the only one cancelling fan events and moving practices to the one area they're threatening to relocate to within months of a decision.

You clearly missed my point about San Diego - sure they could have practiced in Carson in the past - that's like the Rams practicing in Earth city or Kansas City.. However, they're not practicing there now - fan events aren't being cancelled. They're not intentionally giving the finger to the fan base, this off season - right before a decision. Timing is everything, and this isn't a coincidence.

 

[RamFan503]

pretty sure 503 used his admin powers to delete a post so his could be #10k

Hey now. Don't think it works that way anyway. I could delete all posts challenging my achievement to test it though.

 

[RamFan503]

you seriously think what Kroenke is doing/has done to the fanbase compares in any way shape or form to Spanos?

I guess comparing Spanos to Kroenke is just as wrong as those law suits - Kroenke's the only one cancelling fan events and moving practices to the one area they're threatening to relocate to within months of a decision.

You clearly missed my point about San Diego - sure they could have practiced in Carson in the past - that's like the Rams practicing in Earth city or Kansas City.. However, they're not practicing there now - fan events aren't being cancelled. They're not intentionally giving the finger to the fan base, this off season - right before a decision. Timing is everything, and this isn't a coincidence.

Nice re-direct.

The Chargers have never done the kind of fan fest and extensive community involvement activities the Rams have of late and even as much as when Georgia was in charge. By what I can tell now, though they (The Rams) did cancel the other Fan Fest that was a much bigger deal, they are replacing it with one more similar to the rest of the NFL - including SD.

Which was never your original statement - you had said they had tried to had him removed as if it that was some sort of point of emphasis - I was pointing out St.Louis has done the same, only way more recently.

Big difference between trying to have the representative of a franchise removed and trying to get the Mayor removed from a case for supposed bias and an unwillingness to properly prosecute a case. The citizens group in SD was trying to have Fabiani removed because of the acrimony his presence was causing. Fabiani is part of the Chargers organization. The intervenors are making the case that the mayor would not strongly defend the city's ordinance. How are these things even remotely related to how the fan bases of the two cities have been alienated by their teams?

I'm not saying that SD is winning some kind of alienation race but they are and have been doing a pretty fine job of it. Is Stan helping his case in the public opinion arena in the Lou? Certainly not. But the idea that SD fans are not pissed off at Spanos much like St Louis fans toward Stan is just not seeing what the fans have been through in SD for about a decade.

Doesn't matter to you maybe and I suppose it really shouldn't. I really don't think the fans are going to have a big say anyway. Otherwise, SD with their 65k fans per game would carry a bigger weight in considering Carson. Maybe they do. But I doubt it in the end.

 

[iced]

Nice re-direct.

Was going back to the original point - and I still don't agree about the chargers. They're not pulling the same shit the Rams' FO has since this relocation stuff has begun.

I'm not saying that SD is winning some kind of alienation race but they are and have been doing a pretty fine job of it. Is Stan helping his case in the public opinion arena in the Lou? Certainly not. But the idea that SD fans are not pissed off at Spanos much like St Louis fans toward Stan is just not seeing what the fans have been through in SD for about a decade.

Clearly not if ticket sales are down and corporations are reluctant to spend without a committment from Stan. they're not buying his bs of wanting to work with the city either - money talks.

 

[bluecoconuts]

you seriously think what Kroenke is doing/has done to the fanbase compares in any way shape or form to Spanos?

I guess comparing Spanos to Kroenke is just as wrong as those law suits - Kroenke's the only one cancelling fan events and moving practices to the one area they're threatening to relocate to within months of a decision.

You clearly missed my point about San Diego - sure they could have practiced in Carson in the past - that's like the Rams practicing in Earth city or Kansas City.. However, they're not practicing there now - fan events aren't being cancelled. They're not intentionally giving the finger to the fan base, this off season - right before a decision. Timing is everything, and this isn't a coincidence.

Who said that Spanos or Kroenke is any worse than the other? I didn't compare them at all, I simply said that San Diego Chargers fans feel alienated and screwed over as well, because they do. I didn't compare them or say one was worse than the other, it's not a competition about who has it worse.

 

[den-the-coach]

it's not a competition about who has it worse.

And it only takes a new venue to make everything better. That and a few more Super Bowls.

Yankee fans despised George Steinbrenner before 1996 and now Yankee fans treat his legacy like he's Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

 

[iced]

Who said that Spanos or Kroenke is any worse than the other? I didn't compare them at all, I simply said that San Diego Chargers fans feel alienated and screwed over as well, because they do. I didn't compare them or say one was worse than the other, it's not a competition about who has it worse.

My point was Charger fans can't claim them selves to be alienated in the same sense The Rams are - call it what you want but I see Spanos as an owner who has been trying to get a stadium done in a state that has been notorious for refusing to put up public money. Again argue all you want, but Spanos isn't canceling San Diego events and putting practices in Carson during a crucial period. Timing is everything

And I still have yet to see anything that contradicts the issue with SD they have mentioned (not to mention the many other flaws in their plan). Their proposal isn't even viable; yet it's amazing how many people think it is. St.Louis doesn't have those flaws ; nor is his owner giving any kind of remote perception that he wants to stay. Period.

 

[bluecoconuts]

My point was Charger fans can't claim them selves to be alienated in the same sense The Rams are - call it what you want but I see Spanos as an owner who has been trying to get a stadium done in a state that has been notorious for refusing to put up public money. Again argue all you want, but Spanos isn't canceling San Diego events and putting practices in Carson during a crucial period. Timing is everything

And I still have yet to see anything that contradicts the issue with SD they have mentioned (not to mention the many other flaws in their plan). Their proposal isn't even viable; yet it's amazing how many people think it is. St.Louis doesn't have those flaws ; nor is his owner giving any kind of remote perception that he wants to stay. Period.

So? They need to do that to feel alienated?

If that's the case then Chargers fans can argue that Rams fans can't claim themselves to be alienated in the same sense they are. Kroenke isn't having Demoff bash the Riverfront proposal, and Demoff isn't trashing efforts of the city and the officials.

Just because they're not doing the same things, doesn't mean it just end up with the same result, fans feeling alienated and screwed over.

 

[iced]

So? They need to do that to feel alienated?

If that's the case then Chargers fans can argue that Rams fans can't claim themselves to be alienated in the same sense they are. Kroenke isn't having Demoff bash the Riverfront proposal, and Demoff isn't trashing efforts of the city and the officials.

Just because they're not doing the same things, doesn't mean it just end up with the same result, fans feeling alienated and screwed over.

Do you not read my post?

And I still have yet to see anything that contradicts the issue with SD they have mentioned (not to mention the many other flaws in their plan). Their proposal isn't even viable; yet it's amazing how many people think it is.

And this is the "best" proposal (which is sad) they have come up with in 14+ years.. Not to mention it was said from the get go it wouldn't be that well received, a couple hours before it was revealed. I believe @Goose posted the tweets.

And yea what Kroenke has done is completely different - that is evident in the corporate sales alone. Not to mention how everyone heard how he is gung ho for Inglewood and how he has treated the taskforce, including Peacock saying he hasn't been responsive. He's moved practices to oxnard - he's cut fandom events. If you don't think the fans in St.Louis aren't responding, that's being naive in my opinion. The Chargers are not resorting to such tasks. They give the perception that they want to stay; Stan comes off as a middle finger to St.Louis.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Do you not read my post?



And this is the "best" proposal (which is sad) they have come up with in 14+ years.. Not to mention it was said from the get go it wouldn't be that well received, a couple hours before it was revealed. I believe @Goose posted the tweets.

And yea what Kroenke has done is completely different - that is evident in the corporate sales alone. Not to mention how everyone heard how he is gung ho for Inglewood and how he has treated the taskforce, including Peacock saying he hasn't been responsive. He's moved practices to oxnard - he's cut fandom events. If you don't think the fans in St.Louis aren't responding, that's being naive in my opinion. The Chargers are not resorting to such tasks. They give the perception that they want to stay; Stan comes off as a middle finger to St.Louis.

I read your post, but the viability of their proposal doesn't mean anything in this situation. They could have proposed a cardboard box for all I care, Fabiani is still attacking the city, and everything they do and it's not necessary. Demoff could go and attack the Riverfront stadium for size, parking, inability for super bowls, etc, would everyone sit and say "Well there's nothing that contradicts it, so I guess it's okay for them to just sit there and bash everything and say that we're just trying to save face, etc etc"? I doubt it. Frankly I believe people have refuted some of the reasons why you say that San Diego isn't viable, and if I recall you just said no to those refutes and moved on. I haven't really paid any attention to what San Diego is offering up because I don't really give a shit.

I don't know why it needs to be some competition. St Louis fans feel alienated and screwed over. San Diego fans feel alienated and screwed over too. Everyone feels alienated and screwed over. It's not "Well we're worse off, so there, people should feel bad for us more than you!" everyone is in the same boat. Sitting watching rich people "struggle" to build a giant personal playhouse with public money that they don't need and threatening to move to another city if the government doesn't bend over and take it without lube.

 

[iced]

I read your post, but the viability of their proposal doesn't mean anything in this situation. They could have proposed a cardboard box for all I care, Fabiani is still attacking the city, and everything they do and it's not necessary. Demoff could go and attack the Riverfront stadium for size, parking, inability for super bowls, etc, would everyone sit and say "Well there's nothing that contradicts it, so I guess it's okay for them to just sit there and bash everything and say that we're just trying to save face, etc etc"? I doubt it. Frankly I believe people have refuted some of the reasons why you say that San Diego isn't viable, and if I recall you just said no to those refutes and moved on. I haven't really paid any attention to what San Diego is offering up because I don't really give a crap.

On the flip side - at least they're giving them the courtesy of listening to them. Spanos AND Fabiani have been continually engaged for years; Peacock couldn't even get Kroenke on the phone, and only after insistence, gets just Demoff - whom gets to speak for both sides - . Now tell me, which owner sounds even slightly genuinely interested based off actions?

I don't know why it needs to be some competition. St Louis fans feel alienated and screwed over. San Diego fans feel alienated and screwed over too. Everyone feels alienated and screwed over. It's not "Well we're worse off, so there, people should feel bad for us more than you!" everyone is in the same boat. Sitting watching rich people "struggle" to build a giant personal playhouse with public money that they don't need and threatening to move to another city if the government doesn't bend over and take it without lube.

You took this and ran with it a completely different context than I said it in.. It's going to be hard for Kroenke to criticize fan support considering his past actions, especially most recently

 

[bluecoconuts]

On the flip side - at least they're giving them the courtesy of listening to them. Spanos AND Fabiani have been continually engaged for years; Peacock couldn't even get Kroenke on the phone, and only after insistence, gets just Demoff - whom gets to speak for both sides - . Now tell me, which owner sounds even slightly genuinely interested based off actions?

You mean the owner who begrudgely sent someone to negotiate on his behalf the the owner who has spent the last 14 years blasting everything the city has come up with to kill the deal unless they gave in to his every demand? Neither of them.

You took this and ran with it a completely different context than I said it in.. It's going to be hard for Kroenke to criticize fan support considering his past actions, especially most recently

I replied to your statement that San Diego fans can't feel alienated or screwed over, or that one is worse than the other. Anything else is a different topic, and I didn't touch on that. However any excuse of "well sense negotiations have started they did ____!" Is unlikely to please the owners during any decision making. Rams have typically gone above and beyond in fan relations, and if there ksnt much to show for it, Kroenke will have a damn good argument, and the excuse of relocation threats isn't going to help.

 

[iced]

You mean the owner who begrudgely sent someone to negotiate on his behalf the the owner who has spent the last 14 years blasting everything the city has come up with to kill the deal unless they gave in to his every demand? Neither of them.

Why do you keep acting like they have come up with any kind of viable proposal? They haven't. Just because you make a pitch doesn't mean it's worth a crap, let alone comparable to other stadium deals. California has been notorious for refusing to use public money - something the NFL has wanted. Please stop acting like anything they have offered in the past is even somewhat decent.

And yea I'd rather have an open mind other than one who has been trying to work with his city - don't even compare the two situations; it's laughable. One guy has a history of wanting to work with his city; one clearly wants to leave.

I replied to your statement that San Diego fans can't feel alienated or screwed over, or that one is worse than the other. Anything else is a different topic, and I didn't touch on that. However any excuse of "well sense negotiations have started they did ____!" Is unlikely to please the owners during any decision making. Rams have typically gone above and beyond in fan relations, and if there ksnt much to show for it, Kroenke will have a damn good argument, and the excuse of relocation threats isn't going to help.

And as to much to your dismay for Spanos, you have yet to show a reason why their concerns aren't valid. You don't have those issues with the St.Louis plan. SD? I can Name MANY of them. And most importantly, depending on the outcome of the case, St.Louis will be the only one of the 3 cities with a viable plan.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Why do you keep acting like they have come up with any kind of viable proposal? They haven't. Just because you make a pitch doesn't mean it's worth a crap, let alone comparable to other stadium deals. California has been notorious for refusing to use public money - something the NFL has wanted. Please stop acting like anything they have offered in the past is even somewhat decent.

And yea I'd rather have an open mind other than one who has been trying to work with his city - don't even compare the two situations; it's laughable. One guy has a history of wanting to work with his city; one clearly wants to leave.

I'm not talking about their proposals, you've found a point that you continue to stick to despite me not talking about it at all. Again, they can propose whatever they want, that's not the problem. The problem isn't that they don't love the proposal or have found issues with them, it's how they talk about the proposals, and how they talk about the city. It's more than what they say it's how they say it.

As to Spanos having an open mind? I don't think that's true at all. He may say he does, but then he goes and makes specific demands and then balks if they're not met. Example when they said they didn't care about where the site was and then demanded it was downtown only. Spanos doesn't want to work with the city, if he did he'd actually sit down and work with them. Much like if Kroenke really wanted St Louis he'd make sure he really worked with them, instead of having Demoff make small tweaks and that seems to be it. Both of them clearly want to leave. The only owner that I think genuinely wants to stay is Davis, which means he's either a much better actor than Spanos or Kroenke or he actually does want to stay.

And as to much to your dismay for Spanos, you have yet to show a reason why their concerns aren't valid. You don't have those issues with the St.Louis plan. SD? I can Name MANY of them. And most importantly, depending on the outcome of the case, St.Louis will be the only one of the 3 cities with a viable plan.

Again, I'm not talking about the validity of their concerns, I'm sure they have valid concerns, every potential stadium has concerns. There are also issues of the St Louis plan, and even if they do find ways to secure the financing and the land there are still issues, if Kroenke isn't excited about the project it's dead in the water, because if he doesn't want to buy in, he wont buy in. Which means St Louis doesn't have a viable plan, because a large part of the viability of a project is the owner being excited.

Again that has nothing to do with how San Diego fans feel.

 

[The Ripper]

Why do you keep acting like they have come up with any kind of viable proposal? They haven't. Just because you make a pitch doesn't mean it's worth a crap, let alone comparable to other stadium deals. California has been notorious for refusing to use public money - something the NFL has wanted. Please stop acting like anything they have offered in the past is even somewhat decent.

And yea I'd rather have an open mind other than one who has been trying to work with his city - don't even compare the two situations; it's laughable. One guy has a history of wanting to work with his city; one clearly wants to leave.


And as to much to your dismay for Spanos, you have yet to show a reason why their concerns aren't valid. You don't have those issues with the St.Louis plan. SD? I can Name MANY of them. And most importantly, depending on the outcome of the case, St.Louis will be the only one of the 3 cities with a viable plan.

The only reason that the proposal in SD is not viable is because the Chargers want LA so they're undercutting the process. The St Louis proposal even with financing is not viable until the owner is excited about the proposal. You can knock SD but the at least they have been transparent with their proposal. The teams revenue streams are just as important and so far nothing has been released in St Louis.

I am not sure where you're getting open mind when it comes to Spanos and the 14 years trying to get something done is as much on Spanos as it is the city. The war between the Chargers and SD has been going on the whole time. Since Dean took over the Chargers they have had some success but it's still been one of the most dysfunctional franchises in the league, The issues with players isn't just related to relocation but has been going on for 20 years. Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Ryan Leaf and that's just the QB's. The team has struggled to get top FA's because no one wants to play for them


http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Manning-threatens-to-sit-out-if-drafted-by-1665057.php

 

[iced]

The only reason that the proposal in SD is not viable is because the Chargers want LA so they're undercutting the process. The St Louis proposal even with financing is not viable until the owner is excited about the proposal. You can knock SD but the at least they have been transparent with their proposal. The teams revenue streams are just as important and so far nothing has been released in St Louis.

Their plan is not even close to viable - and a project's viability isn't dependent on whether an owner likes it or not. Land and financing needs to be SECURE; design needs to meet NFL standards. You can have a project and have it not be the viable - if St.Louis gets their financing wrapped up, that would be a viable stadium that Kroenke is passing up on. If SD didn't have the holes, then I could see the argument for San Diego.

And While people keep trashing Spanos for voicing his issues on the project, no one has shown his concerns aren't valid. And in the end the only people it will matter to are the other owners - if they share his same concerns or agree with them.

San Diego needs to be proactive like St.Louis in getting their stadium situation ironed out - cross your i's and dot your t's. They knew that last proposal wasn't going to be received well, and I still haven't seen any changes to it (Again, unlike St.louis who has gone to the NFL and made tweeks/changes to their proposal based off of their input..)

I am not sure where you're getting open mind when it comes to Spanos and the 14 years trying to get something done is as much on Spanos as it is the city. The war between the Chargers and SD has been going on the whole time. Since Dean took over the Chargers they have had some success but it's still been one of the most dysfunctional franchises in the league,

I recognize the fact the NFL has been wanting public money for stadiums, while California has been notorious for wanting to not use public money. That in and of itself pretty much kills any thing resembling a viable stadium. Same thing is happening in Oakland - with yet an owner who emphatically wants to stay and is trying the hardest. Still having the same issues in San Diego - no viable stadiums..And SD's is full of flaws..

I don't get why people keep acting like San Diego has passed up an a viable proposal - they haven't had one yet. Not even a decent one, and the latest one is full of holes, even if Spanos did like it.

The issues with players isn't just related to relocation but has been going on for 20 years. Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Ryan Leaf and that's just the QB's. The team has struggled to get top FA's because no one wants to play for them

Seriously? Brees was let go after an injury; Manning's father didn't want him to play for the Chargers or work with AJ Smith, Leaf is a bust, etc... do you wanna compare that to the tye hills, jimme kennedys, tony banks, Jason Smiths, Adam Carrikkers, and the dysfunction that was Zygmunt and Shaw? Not to mention the crap The Rams are pulling with the city of St.Louis?

Please.

 

[The Ripper]

Their plan is not even close to viable - and a project's viability isn't dependent on whether an owner likes it or not. Land and financing needs to be SECURE; design needs to meet NFL standards. You can have a project and have it not be the viable - if St.Louis gets their financing wrapped up, that would be a viable stadium that Kroenke is passing up on. If SD didn't have the holes, then I could see the argument for San Diego.

And While people keep trashing Spanos for voicing his issues on the project, no one has shown his concerns aren't valid. And in the end the only people it will matter to are the other owners - if they share his same concerns or agree with them.

San Diego needs to be proactive like St.Louis in getting their stadium situation ironed out - cross your i's and dot your t's. They knew that last proposal wasn't going to be received well, and I still haven't seen any changes to it (Again, unlike St.louis who has gone to the NFL and made tweeks/changes to their proposal based off of their input..)



I recognize the fact the NFL has been wanting public money for stadiums, while California has been notorious for wanting to not use public money. That in and of itself pretty much kills any thing resembling a viable stadium. Same thing is happening in Oakland - with yet an owner who emphatically wants to stay and is trying the hardest. Still having the same issues in San Diego - no viable stadiums..And SD's is full of flaws..

I don't get why people keep acting like San Diego has passed up an a viable proposal - they haven't had one yet. Not even a decent one, and the latest one is full of holes, even if Spanos did like it.



Seriously? Brees was let go after an injury; Manning's father didn't want him to play for the Chargers or work with AJ Smith, Leaf is a bust, etc... do you wanna compare that to the tye hills, jimme kennedys, tony banks, Jason Smiths, Adam Carrikkers, and the dysfunction that was Zygmunt and Shaw? Not to mention the crap The Rams are pulling with the city of St.Louis?

Please.

SD's proposal was initial proposal and has revenue streams identified which allows it to be scrutinized. The St Louis proposal is lacking any details so the in depth analysis can't be completed. Financing is not enough to make a proposal viable. The revenue streams and lease terms must be completed before the NFL will sign off on a stadium proposal. What concerns besides the site? The Chargers had said a vote next year during the primaries but that now has changed. They trash mission valley but the CSAG plan is one that the Chargers pitched a few years ago.

Yes, Grubman did say that the owner must be excited about the proposal.

SD was and is a mess. SD gave up on Brees before the injury. The drafting of David Boston and signing him to a huge contract then letting him go for nothing. The Chargers were dysfunctional before AJ Smith and John Butler. It goes to the leadership at the top when the same issues with the team keep resurfacing year after year. Kroenke was only a minority owner during Zygmunt and Shaws so it's not accurate comparison.

No one is debating that St Louis isn't a mess or that what's going on with relocation is acceptable. Your point keeps coming back to that SD is somehow handling this better. Spanos has been silent and has let Fabiani handle relocation. The tactic that Fabiani uses is to attack anyone that doesn't agree with the position that he is advocating. It's been going on since Fabiani was retained by the Chargers. He's attacked the media and every elected official since the beginning.

 

[nighttrain]

Anybody that thinks Stan is building a stadium in Inglewood for a team other than the Rams is naive. JMO
train
ps in Iowa, i like the the Rams in St Louis, but really have no dog in this fight

 

[RamFan503]

I have unstickied the thread. Until something new and substantial happens, I really don't see much reason to keep it up top.