MOAB

[jrry32]

Interesting take here:
http://one.npr.org/?sharedMediaId=524654637:524654638

 

[Ramhusker]

This is exactly the point I was attempting to make. You conveyed it a lot better than I did. I tend to be more laissez-faire in my beliefs towards sovereign states. My personal beliefs are that, except in rare cases, if a significant portion of the citizenry want something badly enough to fight and die for it, change will happen.

If change isn't happening, it's because there isn't strong enough support for it. Trying to force change isn't going to make a difference if you can't get the support. Otherwise, as soon as you leave, things are just going to go backwards. That puts us in the terrible position of either having to stay indefinitely to prevent our work from being undone or accepting that our work is going to be undone and getting out.

I have enjoyed reading your insights. I learned a lot from your firsthand experiences.

Man o man! That sounds a lot like here at home in the US sometimes. People can be slow to learn this fact in their own backyard.

 

[fearsomefour]

Interesting take here:
http://one.npr.org/?sharedMediaId=524654637:524654638

Ehhh.
Says (basically) we had a bunch a troops now have several thousand but it's backsliding.
Says you can't fight a tactic (war on terror....I would say he means a philosophy as well)....then said killing Bin Laden provided an exit stragedy.
The real thing to me is this....do the people there have individual rights? Can they own property and make their own way or decisions in life and work?
If not "giving" them stuff will never work. New roads, schools, infrastructure and military/police is all good and well but unless the individual has a vested interest in doing the work....not to maintain the gifted facility....but to better their life it will never last.
Eventually it all comes down to the rights of individuals. Foreign aid going to places dominated by war lords or tribal loyalties going back 100s of years and with no individual rights protected by a functioning government....it is money down a toilet.

 

[jrry32]

Man o man! That sounds a lot like here at home in the US sometimes. People can be slow to learn this fact in their own backyard.

It's unfortunate. People want change, but they've gotten complacent. You're right. They're not willing to do what's necessary to get the change they want.

 

[bluecoconuts]

This is exactly the point I was attempting to make. You conveyed it a lot better than I did. I tend to be more laissez-faire in my beliefs towards sovereign states. My personal beliefs are that, except in rare cases, if a significant portion of the citizenry want something badly enough to fight and die for it, change will happen.

If change isn't happening, it's because there isn't strong enough support for it. Trying to force change isn't going to make a difference if you can't get the support. Otherwise, as soon as you leave, things are just going to go backwards. That puts us in the terrible position of either having to stay indefinitely to prevent our work from being undone or accepting that our work is going to be undone and getting out.

I have enjoyed reading your insights. I learned a lot from your firsthand experiences.

Pretty much, it was something that took a long time for me to come to grips with, since I didn't want the deaths and blood to ultimately be a failure. Eventually I figured it wasn't our fault, we were set up for failure, given an impossible task by men who were too prideful to admit they were wrong. I don't regret what happened, nor am I angry about anything, it is what it is, I wanted to go and I would go again without a second thought. I think it's an important lesson about not letting pride get in the way, and that's why I feel a lot of people want us to stay there, their pride is getting in the way. Unfortunately these usually aren't the same guys bleeding and dying as a result.

People are trying to figure out why it hasn't worked yet, why it hasn't taken hold, and I think we need to admit it's just Occam's razor here. It hasn't happened because the people don't want it. Time to pack it in, we're still the baddest kids on the block and everyone knows it. Us leaving wont change that perception.

 

[Debacled]

So not to take the thread off topic but.....

I've read that the MOABs only have a 15 year shelf life. They produced 20 of the suckers in 2003.

Bombs away?

 

[DaveFan'51]

I sure hope we have enough of these so that everyone in ISIS can get there Free Ride to the promised Land!

 

[RedRam]

72 virgins, eh? Hmmm...What if the virgins are all guys??

 

[RamFan503]

72 virgins, eh? Hmmm...What if the virgins are all guys??

72 Viginians?

 

[Prime Time]

72 raisins?
*****************************
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/01/the-great-koran.html

The Great Koran Controversy: Will Muslim Martyrs Get 72 Raisins Instead of Virgins?

 

[bnw]

Garrison sucks, no doubt. There are easier pumps to get extra pay though.



No it's not, the reason for the increased production was because we completely destroyed their economy when we invaded and started gobbling up supplies for ourselves, as well as to slow down supplies to the enemy. This resulted in many people losing their jobs and turning to farming opium as it was a quick way of making a buck. We also forced the production away from the more urban areas with larger populations into open areas away from population centers, where it's harder to crack down and stop. The Karzai government that we installed is also incredibly corrupt and many of the biggest drug lords have high positions in the government while ensures production is maintained. We've also pushed the Taliban into supporting it (they believed it was un-Islamic and banned it) as a way to fund their insurgency since we have destroyed other aspects of the economy.

This isn't the first time the United States has invaded a country, destroyed their economy and saw crime and drug production skyrocket. There was widespread looting after Iraq fall, Vietnam saw major increases in drug production (heroin as well, actually) as farmers and other local nationals were forced into looking for other means to make money.

I have literally stood by burning opium fields with DEA FAST teams while the farmers cursed us for destroying their livelihood. While we're to blame for the rise in opium it's not because we're protecting them, it's because we destroyed their economy and people adapted to get by.

Those are US troops. They are guarding the fields. That opium makes its way to the US just like it did in Vietnam. Big Pharma opioids profits and street heroin price deflation courtesy of our occupation of Afghanistan. I do remember the Golden Triangle.

Burn a pound of opium for a photo op while letting 1000 pounds in the USA. Doesn't matter what the drug- heroin, cocaine, marijuana, same story always because the government loves its monopoly. We lose liberties and the Bill of Rights becomes toilet paper all in the name of the War on Drugs. Civil Asset Forfeiture is another, and I literally have to document a back story to justify carrying cash THAT CAN STILL BE CONFISCATED BY THE POLICE WITH NO CHARGES AGAINST ME. Most people can't afford or get a lawyer to fight it so the police keep the money and buy neat police toys with it.

 

[bnw]

72 raisins?
*****************************
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/01/the-great-koran.html

The Great Koran Controversy: Will Muslim Martyrs Get 72 Raisins Instead of Virgins?

I bet that is a surprise!:rolllaugh:

 

[bluecoconuts]

Those are US troops. They are guarding the fields. That opium makes its way to the US just like it did in Vietnam. Big Pharma opioids profits and street heroin price deflation courtesy of our occupation of Afghanistan. I do remember the Golden Triangle.

Burn a pound of opium for a photo op while letting 1000 pounds in the USA. Doesn't matter what the drug- heroin, cocaine, marijuana, same story always because the government loves its monopoly. We lose liberties and the Bill of Rights becomes toilet paper all in the name of the War on Drugs. Civil Asset Forfeiture is another, and I literally have to document a back story to justify carrying cash THAT CAN STILL BE CONFISCATED BY THE POLICE WITH NO CHARGES AGAINST ME. Most people can't afford or get a lawyer to fight it so the police keep the money and buy neat police toys with it.

US troops didn't guard opium fields.

 

[bnw]

US troops didn't guard opium fields.

Those are US troops. I watched US troops on TV being interviewed many years ago that were guarding the fields among other things. Servicemen give interviews that the MSM won't air because they admit they were guarding Afghan opium. Do the math. Street price of heroin drops 90% since our invasion of Afghanistan as well as a proliferation of prescribed opioids and their abuse. I do not believe it is a coincidence.

 

[Force16X]

They're still people. They kill some of us and it's terrorism. We kill some of them and it's something to laugh at.

awesome little species we are.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Those are US troops. I watched US troops on TV being interviewed many years ago that were guarding the fields among other things. Servicemen give interviews that the MSM won't air because they admit they were guarding Afghan opium. Do the math. Street price of heroin drops 90% since our invasion of Afghanistan as well as a proliferation of prescribed opioids and their abuse. I do not believe it is a coincidence.

If members of the military were guardian opium fields their story would get out. Social media, Reddit, various news websites not considered main stream media would pick it up and it would spread to the media. There's no mass cover-up, if it was happening we would know about it.

 

[bnw]

If members of the military were guardian opium fields their story would get out. Social media, Reddit, various news websites not considered main stream media would pick it up and it would spread to the media. There's no mass cover-up, if it was happening we would know about it.

The story has been out for years.

 

[RamFan503]

The story has been out for years.

Blue is a pretty straight shooter and has been boots on the ground. My cousin has as well. I'd trust what they say far and away more than heresy conspiracy theories. Few things infuriate my cousin more than people insinuating this was what was going on. He saw a lot of fucked up shit but said this theory is pure BS.

 

[bnw]

Blue is a pretty straight shooter and has been boots on the ground. My cousin has as well. I'd trust what they say far and away more than heresy conspiracy theories. Few things infuriate my cousin more than people insinuating this was what was going on. He saw a lot of freaked up crap but said this theory is pure BS.

In their opinion per their experience. That is two points on the ground at perhaps two different times. Neither was everywhere at all times since the invasion began 15 years ago. Again look at the video. Look at the proliferation of opiates both legal and illegal in this country and the 90% drop in the street price of heroin in this country since the invasion. In a region under US military control that produces so much opium it just "somehow" makes its way to the US in such tremendous quantities to drop the price by 90%? Military? CIA? Who knows? I don't believe in coincidence where so much money is involved over so long a time not just in Afghanistan but during our involvement in Vietnam and Central America stretching over decades. Black budgets are not public. Rogue elements aren't either. So many inconvenient truths started out as "heresy".

 

[bluecoconuts]

In their opinion per their experience. That is two points on the ground at perhaps two different times. Neither was everywhere at all times since the invasion began 15 years ago. Again look at the video. Look at the proliferation of opiates both legal and illegal in this country and the 90% drop in the street price of heroin in this country since the invasion. In a region under US military control that produces so much opium it just "somehow" makes its way to the US in such tremendous quantities to drop the price by 90%? Military? CIA? Who knows? I don't believe in coincidence where so much money is involved over so long a time not just in Afghanistan but during our involvement in Vietnam and Central America stretching over decades. Black budgets are not public. Rogue elements aren't either. So many inconvenient truths started out as "heresy".

I was in a special operations unit, we would travel to different parts of the country if needed to complete a mission. The community is also incredibly small as we all work together. I've worked with CIA, DEA, Delta Force, SEALS, other countries special operations, I've damn near worked with them all. The only way you could keep a secret like that would be if you were using elite troops as they (typically, SEALS tend to be the exception) know to keep their trap shut, quiet professional and all. However among these units we talk, we share information as it's vital... I would have known about it, just like I knew about the stealth Black Hawk before we used it (and before it became known from the Bin Laden raid), and several new technologies and weapons being used (for example I was one of the first testers of the M110 on the battlefield, my comments and thoughts were filtered through JSOC units before anything else) before it filtered into the regular military and the public. Once it hits the regular military it's no longer a secret, everyone knows about it.

If troops were guarding opium fields there would be a bunch of pictures and videos of guys talking about how bored they are on post guarding a field, there would be a lot of bitching about being stuck on the boring duty. It would be well known, you couldn't keep it a secret.