Mini Ice Age may be around the corner.

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RamFan503

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The U.S. is the second most polluting country, so focusing on reducing ourselves would be a big start.
First of all, I'd like to see where you are getting that. Second, is this taking any kind of production in mind? Just to throw out meaningless numbers to clarify what I am saying.... If country A produces 10 pounds of whatever pollution while producing 50 bushels of grain, are they a bigger polluter than country B that produces 8 pounds of the same pollutant while producing 10 bushels of grain? Or country A has a 1lb per capita pollution rate whereas country B has a 1/2lb per capita pollution rate with 4 times the population. Is country A the bigger polluter?

It may sound simplistic but this is the basis being used to say that the US should sign on to the punitive world treaties being proposed. We would be signing onto something that penalizes us for being both more environmentally advanced, AND a more efficient producer. So no... reducing ourselves further while other countries continue to expand their inefficient and highly polluting ways, only puts us at a market disadvantage therefore increasing their advantage and the amount they will produce and pollute. In the end, we actually do further harm because we have allowed enormous amounts of pollutants to go unchecked while we put US industries at an even further disadvantage and actually completely price them out of the market.
 

bluecoconuts

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First of all, I'd like to see where you are getting that. Second, is this taking any kind of production in mind? Just to throw out meaningless numbers to clarify what I am saying.... If country A produces 10 pounds of whatever pollution while producing 50 bushels of grain, are they a bigger polluter than country B that produces 8 pounds of the same pollutant while producing 10 bushels of grain? Or country A has a 1lb per capita pollution rate whereas country B has a 1/2lb per capita pollution rate with 4 times the population. Is country A the bigger polluter?

It may sound simplistic but this is the basis being used to say that the US should sign on to the punitive world treaties being proposed. We would be signing onto something that penalizes us for being both more environmentally advanced, AND a more efficient producer. So no... reducing ourselves further while other countries continue to expand their inefficient and highly polluting ways, only puts us at a market disadvantage therefore increasing their advantage and the amount they will produce and pollute. In the end, we actually do further harm because we have allowed enormous amounts of pollutants to go unchecked while we put US industries at an even further disadvantage and actually completely price them out of the market.

I've heard that for years. To be honest I'm a bit taken back, I had assumed it was common knowledge.

Again, when I get home I can go into more detail, but a quick Google search shows it.

Here's a quick Wikipedia link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions


As to how they measure it, again, I'm not a climate scientist, so I'm not sure. I think it's mostly by purely how much, not just how efficient. If we were to make treaties, I'd assume it wouldn't be done in a way that we hurt ourselves. However this is again getting more into the political aspect of it, and I'm not as concerned with that. It should be more of a scientific debate, and instead its being taken over by morons who think that a snowball is proof it doesn't exist.
 

Oldgeek

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I wish these reports would all end with a statement like:"but we could be dead wrong about all of this."
The earth has been cooling or warming for the last 4 billion years, so what makes anyone think that will stop?
 

RAMSinLA

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Big planet...big sun...big universe. The thought that anything we humans do can effect the weather to any dangerous degree is hard for me to accept. One volcano in one day wipes out any good the Prius has done or ever will do. :D
 

IowaRam

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I still don't believe it was a asteroid that killed the dinosaurs

And I don't believe in evaluation either , because you would think that after a billion years of evaluation we would have evolved enough to be able to reach that spot in the middle of your back that you can't scratch
 

Prime Time

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Again, when I get home I can go into more detail, but a quick Google search shows it.

Here's a quick Wikipedia link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

Here's the thing: one side of the argument can find links, scientists, and weather geeks to support their position, while the other side of the argument can do exactly the same thing. I'm not worried about the weather in the least. What really worries me is crazy people blowing us all up. Thanks for the discussion and for all those who contributed to it. (y)
 

RamFan503

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I've heard that for years. To be honest I'm a bit taken back, I had assumed it was common knowledge.

Again, when I get home I can go into more detail, but a quick Google search shows it.

Here's a quick Wikipedia link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions


As to how they measure it, again, I'm not a climate scientist, so I'm not sure. I think it's mostly by purely how much, not just how efficient. If we were to make treaties, I'd assume it wouldn't be done in a way that we hurt ourselves. However this is again getting more into the political aspect of it, and I'm not as concerned with that. It should be more of a scientific debate, and instead its being taken over by morons who think that a snowball is proof it doesn't exist.
Always keep the end in mind with any study. What is the study being used for. Your link is again based on total CO2 emissions (there are far more emissions and pollutants than CO2) and per capita. Nothing on production. It also has everything to do with how they measure it and what they are using as their sources/science.

If you look at per capita, which is how most world treaties are designed, China would be allowed to produce three times as much CO2 as it does now before catching up with the US based on that criteria. Never mind that they are already far exceeding the US in CO2 emissions while producing far less AND their products are not as safe, their cars have virtually zero emission standards, their cities and suburbs are far more polluted, etc... There is no way a scientist should believe, given that data, that the US is a bigger threat to the environment than China or several other nations. That is bad science forming bad policy.

You can't get away from the politics of it even if and ESPECIALLY if you want to have a scientific debate as to what should be done to improve the situation. The science of it is meaningless if you don't use it in a logical manner. By making countries that have actually found a way to produce more per unit of fossil fuel do even more, you are allowing countries that have done virtually nothing environmentally sound to take over markets and produce even more toxins. It's an unavoidable truth.

Just look at the graph that is even in your article. China is blasting the roof off of emissions and yet is still 1/3rd per capita of the US. What happens when/if they catch up? Holy crap that is a freaking cesspool that the rest of the world will have to pay for. Meanwhile, we would be asked to cut our emissions simply because we have been successful. And it does no use to ignore the fact that what you would be doing is cutting down on more efficient and environmentally sound production and replacing it with high polluting industries in other countries.

Should we strive to do better? Sure. But before any of these world treaties should be signed by the US, other countries need to demonstrate they are cutting emissions and creating efficiencies - that they are stepping up to the plate and there is a level playing field.

An iron smelting (I think that's the term) mill that had been decommissioned here in Oregon during the 60s because it couldn't keep up with US environmental standards was taken apart and reassembled in China about 10 years ago. It went back into production with no new environmental controls. Do you suppose we might have gotten even stricter on those controls over the past 50 years? Good to go in China though. The paper mill in Salem, OR was shut down a few years ago and is in the process of trying to sell the plant to China. I'm sure it will be reinstalled with all the latest environmental technologies.

Sorry Blue but scientific research that points at which countries produce more emissions is only done toward a political end. And if you use those studies to form international policy, you can't ignore the effects on our economy.
 

RamzFanz

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Not saying all are coming from this perspective....many are. Its like any study with a conflict of interest. That said, there is no point in either side really trying to convince the other (in terms of individuals) since, even if it is true, there is nothing to be done. I will just sit here in my smug self righteousness (I am not joking with that, I am very smug that I am correct) until they come to take more taxes and take away personal freedoms with no real basis to do so.
Until then I don't much care. Human nature has a self centered ego fed need to be important. Whenever I hear a preacher rattling on about the end times I wonder about his age, about his station in life and about how fragile his ego is. It gives his life purpose and meaning. The big scary boogeyman has been coming for us for millennia.
If it is all true then I just want the disasters and chaos broadcast in HD....the real reality TV.
Its the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine....

That was bizarrely philosophical.
 

RamzFanz

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I know how grants work, I have to get them for my work as well. Government grants work differently than private grants. Either way, most scientists aren't fudging data to get grants, because their work gets read by other scientists and if it cannot be repeated then they are discredited and lose their jobs. Faking data is far worse for a scientist than not having promising research. One means you may need to go to a different study for money, the other means you need a new line of work because nobody will hire you.

I've had to go and talk about how my data isn't bringing back the results I hoped it would, and I will again some day. Its a lot easier to do that then explain how I faked it. One a journal is published others read it, including those who don't want it to be true, and students looking to get into the field. If the data is fudged, it eventually gets out. The numbers that climate scientists published are so scrutinized by those who don't want it to be true (including billion dollar industries, such as oil) they would catch it quickly.

Dude, how exciting are the Pluto images?! I'm amazed!
 

bluecoconuts

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Dude, how exciting are the Pluto images?! I'm amazed!

Same here, I'm absolutely stoked. It's been a big day for physics, New Horizons and a new particle discovered, I'm going to go into the lab early tomorrow and get a few sneak peaks at some of the pictures and data. They should be releasing some of them early tomorrow, but it's going to take over a year (about 16 months or so) to download all the data that it's sending back.

New Horizons is more than just pictures, it's also going to send back data about Pluto's atmosphere and tons more information, it'll take years to really get a complete picture of Pluto honestly. It's all very exciting, and it'll help us form better predictions for our search for habitable planets in our Galaxy.

Always keep the end in mind with any study. big long post that I'm trimming down

That's all stuff I let the climate scientists and politicians deal with, my original point was that there isn't much evidence that low sun spots will mean a new "ice age" and that the articles that jumped to that conclusion were off base. In terms of climate change, I believe it's happening based on discussions with people who know far more than I do on the subject, same with how much of it is due to humans. What we do with the information is for others to worry about, I'm more interested in what goes on off of Earth than on it. That all being said, I don't have any desire to get into lengthy debates (this is already more than I wanted) but rest assured at this time nobody who I work with, including myself, believe that low sun spots will mean an ice age will have major impacts on our weather patterns, so we can all continue with our day. (y)
 

RamzFanz

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Same here, I'm absolutely stoked. It's been a big day for physics, New Horizons and a new particle discovered, I'm going to go into the lab early tomorrow and get a few sneak peaks at some of the pictures and data. They should be releasing some of them early tomorrow, but it's going to take over a year (about 16 months or so) to download all the data that it's sending back.

New Horizons is more than just pictures, it's also going to send back data about Pluto's atmosphere and tons more information, it'll take years to really get a complete picture of Pluto honestly. It's all very exciting, and it'll help us form better predictions for our search for habitable planets in our Galaxy

I didn't know that. Awesome.

Nothing amazes me more than the study of the universe around us. The possibilities are endless.

I do wish I could travel a few hundred thousand of years from now though so I could see if space travel outside out of the solar system is possible.

Murica has sent a probe to every planet (and pluto) first! Fuck yeah!
 

Mojo Ram

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Growing up as a kid in the 70's....I'm still waiting for the African killer bees to get here.
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