Is the running QB in trouble?

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CGI_Ram

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We've had this debate here on ROD before. This is a pretty good piece on the topic;

<a class="postlink" href="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8991148/nfl-zone-option-running-qbs-not-hot-trend-many-think" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/ ... many-think</a>

At the NFL combine, the talk every year is never just about the prospects. Like the first day of a new high school year, it's also about deciding which trends to embrace as a way of climbing the competitive social ladder. Coaches and GMs are peers eyeing each other and whispering about what is now real social currency and what is, in a football sense, played out. Scheme elements are denim, personnel trends music, and the recently cool -- the Jim Harbaughs, the Pete Carrolls -- help dictate the new scene.

The combine is where evaluators take those trends and view prospects as the tools to stay relevant or get ahead. This year, the dual-threat quarterback, the zone-read gunner, is in. An agent representing a quarterback in this class told me he now works harder to market a running threat as an aspect to his client's game and searches far and wide to find potential clients who fit the trend. A QB coach who trains NFL quarterbacks and prospects alike says "Teams are now always asking me if my guy is able to, in their words, 'beat defenders with the ball in his hands.'" It's not just evasion, it's the ability to attack.

The numbers tell the story. The chart at right shows that in 2012, QBs who had more than 30 designed runs more than doubled over 2011. All five of those quarterbacks were first- or second-year QBs, and you see some major offensive performance spikes for those teams in cases like Colin Kaepernick in San Francisco, Russell Wilson in Seattle and Robert Griffin III in Washington. Even Cam Newton and Ryan Tannehill helped their teams jump in win totals and proclaim the future brighter.

The trend is, by many accounts, here to stay. Right?

Maybe not. Here's why.

1. The money

The combined cap hit for Newton, RG III, Kaepernick, Wilson and Tannehill in 2012 was $12.85 million. That's a total that isn't just about nine weeks' worth of a full-season cap hit for Peyton Manning; it's also a smaller total than the single-year 2012 cap hit for 10 other NFL QBs. Yes, the total cap hit for those five was smaller than the cap hit for Carson Palmer ($15.335M) or Kevin Kolb ($13.5M) alone, enough to induce depression-based consumption for Raiders and Cardinals fans. But it won't stay that way.

The trend of running quarterbacks marries young legs and significantly diminished financial risks on the part of teams that called designed runs. It's one thing to put a young QB making the equivalent of about 0.4 percent of the team's total salary cap allotment (Wilson) at risk for a few hits; it's another to allow it when Wilson is making star QB cash, which can be closer to 15 percent of the total cap. Young QBs aren't just a good bet to see more designed runs because they have more speed, it's because they get paid young-QB money. Is that sustainable? Already, a team like the Redskins won't be able to swallow the risk associated with having RG III run 77 times by design, and he won't even be among their top 10 cap hits in 2013. The consequences are too significant.

2. The skill hierarchy

The good thing for the Redskins, and every other team that called so many designed run options, is that every QB on this list offered more as a passer than as a runner. As I noted well before he got hurt, RG III's future isn't so bright just because he is a perpetual running threat; it's because he's an advanced NFL passer, fully capable of making reads, maneuvering through conflict, manipulating defenses with his eyes and delivering strikes on time both short and deep down the field. Even guys with less impressive passing résumés like Newton and Tannehill are capable of developing into elite NFL passers. The issue is, on a yards-per-play basis, they're all already bigger threats as passers. Every one of them.

Now, the counterargument says Wilson, Newton, RG III and Kaepernick are effective passers in part because they are threats to run -- keeping linebackers off-balance and safeties with eyes locked in the backfield and not on X and Z receivers flying by them down the field. But it's also true that the threat of the pass has made defenses more susceptible to each as a runner. And in the case where zone-read looks are used (and yes, there are many scheme variations we can bring into this), defensive ends and pass-rushing 3-4 OLBs also halt their pursuit of sacks for fear of getting burned by the run. Kaepernick ran exactly twice in San Francisco's playoff win over Atlanta, a game where he went 16-of-21 for 233 yards and a 127.7 passer rating. The threat mattered, not the run itself.

3. The adjustment

In Indy, the talk among coaches isn't just about the QB prospects who could continue the recent trend; it's about how to stop them. The combine is like a gathering of the world's best hedge-fund managers, a mix of competitive and secretive yet ready to debate new ways to attack the market. ESPN analyst and longtime NFL general manager Bill Polian told me he had already spoken to several coaches about new methods to not merely survive dual-threat QBs but to attack them. There's talk of loading up on athletic defensive ends to present 4-3 looks where all four down lineman are essentially defensive ends, able to attack the backfield and create more hits on QBs.

And consider the power of increased familiarity. Jim Harbaugh and Pete Carroll aren't just familiar with the skill set of running QBs because they play each other. They're familiar because they have one of their own. Mike Shanahan sees Chip Kelly enter the NFC East as a coach with expertise in how to use the threat of a QB capable of gashing defenses with the run. New Jacksonville coach Gus Bradley told me he's "definitely got some ideas" on how to slow the running QB. Of course he does; he was Carroll's defensive coordinator and helped shut down the San Fran rushing attack in Seattle's Week 16 blowout of the Niners in 2012. Familiarity doesn't just breed contempt. In the NFL, it breeds solutions.

4. The supply

The 2011 draft class gave us Newton and Kaepernick. Last year gave us Wilson, RG III and the underrated athleticism of Tannehill. This year's class isn't just short on certainty for elite NFL passers; it also lacks certain run threats. Geno Smith might be athletic, but he's a comfortable pocket passer who ran for 118 yards in 2011 and 2012 -- combined. Matt Barkley is no running threat. Neither is Mike Glennon, Tyler Bray or Ryan Nassib. EJ Manuel is a good athlete, but he's not even a certainty to be ready to start as a rookie from a passing standpoint.

Evaluators looking to find a quarterback who can help turn their offense on to the new trend are looking at a pretty picked-over mall. That leads us to a final hurdle for the trend.

5. The playbook

When RG III was injured during the regular season (concussion) and during the playoffs (knee), Washington turned the offense over to backup Kirk Cousins. There are far worse backup QBs to hand the ball to, but Cousins during the regular season ran a total of three times and in that postseason loss to Seattle just once -- for one yard. Washington was left with a situation where, in the absence of its No. 1, it had to dramatically downgrade the running threat of the QB.

It shifted the playbook. The Redskins knew it, and the defense knew it. Teams that rely on the run threat of their starting QB don't just gamble on a risk of injury and the financial concerns associated with that dual-threat QB taking up an ever-increasing piece of the salary cap. They also run the risk of requiring a diminished playbook if that starter is lost.

The supposed "luxury" of a quality backup is mitigated because the backup has such a different set of skills. As noted in the previous item, the supply of quarterbacks in the draft who offer what the dual-threat starter can is minimal.

The dual-threat QB, the zone read, the many scheme advantages that we saw teams take advantage of in 2012 -- they aren't going to disappear. Newton, at a cut 250-plus pounds, won't stop seeing designed runs called for him anytime soon. Nor should he. But on the aggregate, financial risk, the effectiveness of the pass, the depth chart, the playbook and a stalled supply line will be causing the trend-setters to rethink the future.

In a league where what's cool constantly shifts, sometimes a return to convention is what will keep you hip, and winning, for the long run.
 

den-the-coach

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IMO a running QB is now the new trend and can you still win the convential way? Sure, but having a QB that can run is always a plus. If you go back to yesteryear Bradshaw, Stabauch & Elway could run very well. They were great athletes and won many Super Bowls now you had the likes of others QB's that could run like Tarkenton, Steve Grogan & Bobby Douglass (one of the best runners could not pass though) but you have to have a good team too.

However, I will take a QB who always has the ability to move the pocket and extend the play each & every time. They are at times impossible to defend and in the Ram history they have always had trouble with those type of QB's.

Going forward IMO if a team does not have a QB that possess that quality they must find another way to run plays. For example drafting Denard Robinson who could besides being a WR play QB and run a few plays that are difficult to defend. The running QB has always been part of the NFL and now the QB's are just better athletes.

BTW I bet we see Sam the Ram take off more often in 2013 not like some of the others, but just enough to extend the play and move the chains. When Tom Brady was younger, he was a master at that and that is my hope for Bradford.
 

F. Mulder

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den-the-coach said:
BTW I bet we see Sam the Ram take off more often in 2013 not like some of the others, but just enough to extend the play and move the chains. When Tom Brady was younger, he was a master at that and that is my hope for Bradford.


I agree Den and this was one of several things I was upset with him about going into last season. There were times where things either were breaking down or there was a safe bubble for him to scamper for 7 or more yards and still hit the dirt. I think he did a much better job of that last season. No way is he in the league of Kap, Wilson, Griffin, et al. athletically but he certainly has the legs to get the job done. I think with Bradford he is a thrower first and runner second (vs. other QBs who seem to want to pull the ball down and run at the slightest hint of pressure). I think he wants to use his legs to extend passing plays and runs as a last resort, however last year he made some really big plays with his legs. Nothing breaks another team's heart more than a QB converting a 3rd and long and having pressure and things covered only to have the QB run for a first down. BTW, sometimes the best runs are for no gain but avoid a huge sack loss or panic throw into coverage

I still maintain that the offense, and Bradford, operate much better with a variation of a hurry-up, no huddle, call the play at the LOS type of approach. The team moves better, Bradford gets in rhythm more and it seems like a more dangerous offense IMO. It doesn't mean he can't call runs, nor does it mean he can't use the entire play clock like Manning often does, but it does present more control. I hope we see more of that next season. I think Fisher and Shotty alluded to Bradford taking more control the last 8 games and he was at his best the last 8 games to me.
 

jap

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I have no problem with Sam running as long as he doesn't start channeling his inner Juggernaut and tries to barrel into defenders head/shoulder first like he did in the 1st half against Minny. He didn't act right for the rest of that half (e.g., passes were mostly off target), and I swear he had his bell rung pretty good. That hit may have cost us the game.

So to Sam I Am - no more of this crazy, "I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!!!" attitude. :ww:
 

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F. Mulder said:
I still maintain that the offense, and Bradford, operate much better with a variation of a hurry-up, no huddle, call the play at the LOS type of approach. The team moves better, Bradford gets in rhythm more and it seems like a more dangerous offense IMO. It doesn't mean he can't call runs, nor does it mean he can't use the entire play clock like Manning often does, but it does present more control. I hope we see more of that next season. I think Fisher and Shotty alluded to Bradford taking more control the last 8 games and he was at his best the last 8 games to me.

^ This.

We moved the ball better in those situations.
 

Angry Ram

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Only 3 teams have running QBs.

Washington, Carolina, Philly.

Running QB in trouble? It wasn't even a thing.
 

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Great article, and as always here on ROD, great points in discussion. Totally agree that Sammy, and the offense as a whole run more efficiently in the hurry up/no huddle offense. A second year in the same system will afford the offense with many more opportunities for this in 2013. The importance of familiarity in an offensive system can not be overstated. I expect a lot more from this offense this year. In fact, we all should. I hope you all found this post offensive...
 

RamFan503

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F. Mulder said:
I still maintain that the offense, and Bradford, operate much better with a variation of a hurry-up, no huddle, call the play at the LOS type of approach. The team moves better, Bradford gets in rhythm more and it seems like a more dangerous offense IMO. It doesn't mean he can't call runs, nor does it mean he can't use the entire play clock like Manning often does, but it does present more control. I hope we see more of that next season. I think Fisher and Shotty alluded to Bradford taking more control the last 8 games and he was at his best the last 8 games to me.

This is also something Chip Kelly is going to bring to the NFL. So many people refer to it as a hurry up offense when it is nothing of the sort and is a run first offense. Oregon almost always used the entire clock. But they would essentially huddle at the LOS in formation. As a defense, you couldn't substitute and the Ducks would come to the line, the QB would survey the defense, and then he'd generally back off the line, get the play call from the sideline, and call it out to his players.

I'd like to see more of that with Sam. It doesn't mean any actual faster tempo for your big guys on the line, it just means less fresh legs coming in on defense.
 

den-the-coach

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Angry Ram said:
Only 3 teams have running QBs.

Washington, Carolina, Philly.

Running QB in trouble? It wasn't even a thing.

I'm going to respetfully disagree many teams have QB's that can run....Green Bay, San Francisco, Seattle & you can add Jake Locker to the list as he gets more opportunties, but he did average 7.1 yds per carry...And the future of the NFL is going to see more and more of this IMHO.
 

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Like the wildcat, this has been completely overblown. QBs who can run are nothing new and have been around for decades. Tannehill is not a running QB so no idea why he was involved in this.

The new trend is the read option...which imo is a fad. Like the wildcat, it won't be an integral part of NFL offense in the near future.

If the new QBs are to be successful, it will be because of their passing skills...not their running skills. Just like all the athletic QBs of the past.

I have a lot of doubts about Kaepernick's long term viability. He reminds me of Daunte Culpepper. IMO, if he gets hurt and loses his running ability, he'll lose his viability as a starting QB.
 

RamFan503

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Re:

jrry32 said:
Like the wildcat, this has been completely overblown. QBs who can run are nothing new and have been around for decades. Tannehill is not a running QB so no idea why he was involved in this.

The new trend is the read option...which imo is a fad. Like the wildcat, it won't be an integral part of NFL offense in the near future.

If the new QBs are to be successful, it will be because of their passing skills...not their running skills. Just like all the athletic QBs of the past.

I have a lot of doubts about Kaepernick's long term viability. He reminds me of Daunte Culpepper. IMO, if he gets hurt and loses his running ability, he'll lose his viability as a starting QB.

Yeah - I'd agree with all of this. There may be a bit more athleticism in today's QBs that are able to run but that can be said of virtually every position on the field. The press has had a love affair with the idea of a QB that could run AND pass for as long as I can remember. Think about how Fran Tarkenton used to burn us on 3rd down situations. Hell - You could go back to the 30s when Parker "Bullet" Hall was the QB, leading rusher, and league MVP for the Cleveland Rams. Yeah.... Even back then that didn't make for a very long career.

It's new. It's fresh. But when you look at the average career for a RB (that is generally built like a fire plug), how long do you suppose the average life will be for a running QB unless he can really rely on his passing ability. I realize everyone is touting RG3s, Kaeperdick, and Wilson's ability to pass. But stick them in a pocket (which IMO is where they will have to be in order to stay alive) and see how they progress.

Let teams go after QBs they have to replace every couple of years.
 

den-the-coach

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Re:

jrry32 said:
I have a lot of doubts about Kaepernick's long term viability. He reminds me of Daunte Culpepper. IMO, if he gets hurt and loses his running ability, he'll lose his viability as a starting QB.


I hope you're right, but the best thing that Kaepernick has is Jim Harbaugh as his Head Coach. Being a former QB Harbaugh is going to ensure not to over expose him and with that offensive line he should be protected very well. IMO Kaepernick is going to be one heck of a QB for a very long period of time and reminds me of Roger Staubauch in many ways.
 

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Re: Re:

den-the-coach said:
jrry32 said:
I have a lot of doubts about Kaepernick's long term viability. He reminds me of Daunte Culpepper. IMO, if he gets hurt and loses his running ability, he'll lose his viability as a starting QB.


I hope you're right, but the best thing that Kaepernick has is Jim Harbaugh as his Head Coach. Being a former QB Harbaugh is going to ensure not to over expose him and with that offensive line he should be protected very well. IMO Kaepernick is going to be one heck of a QB for a very long period of time and reminds me of Roger Staubauch in many ways.

So if left to rely on their passing skills, how do you rank them as passers?

1. Wilson
2. RG3
3. Newton
4. Kaeperdick
5. Vick
 

Angry Ram

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den-the-coach said:
Angry Ram said:
Only 3 teams have running QBs.

Washington, Carolina, Philly.

Running QB in trouble? It wasn't even a thing.

I'm going to respetfully disagree many teams have QB's that can run....Green Bay, San Francisco, Seattle & you can add Jake Locker to the list as he gets more opportunties, but he did average 7.1 yds per carry...And the future of the NFL is going to see more and more of this IMHO.

Aaron Rodgers runs when there's no other option...he's more pocket than runner. Russell Wilson isn't a runner like RG3, he's a more McNabb-like (in terms of movement). I'll put Jake Locker in that boat too.

Kaepernick OK, he's a beast runner. OK so 4 teams have a QB like that.
 

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I want 31 of the 32 teams to go with the running Qb and us to stay with the pocket passer. Bring the runners, as many as possible ,I want every defense in the league out to take their heads off, and US to be the different team they have to write the unique game plan for.
Mike Martz set the league on it's ear by being different ,copy cats can have their carbon copies, it'll only make it easier to get a competent backup for our pocket passer.
 

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Re: Re:

CGI_Ram said:
den-the-coach said:
jrry32 said:
I have a lot of doubts about Kaepernick's long term viability. He reminds me of Daunte Culpepper. IMO, if he gets hurt and loses his running ability, he'll lose his viability as a starting QB.


I hope you're right, but the best thing that Kaepernick has is Jim Harbaugh as his Head Coach. Being a former QB Harbaugh is going to ensure not to over expose him and with that offensive line he should be protected very well. IMO Kaepernick is going to be one heck of a QB for a very long period of time and reminds me of Roger Staubauch in many ways.

So if left to rely on their passing skills, how do you rank them as passers?

1. Wilson
2. RG3
3. Newton
4. Kaeperdick
5. Vick

I'd put Kaepernick above Newton; Newton is an incredibly shitty passer. Otherwise, I've got no problem with that list.
 

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Shelf life of the running QB and the read option will be about 4 years. After that the guy will get so beat up that he will have to become a pocket passer to survive. They won't take as many hits a RB, but they aren't made to take that punishment season after season.
But there is a lot of these guys in college so there will always be a supply.
If you have a running QB as a starter the backup will have to be one too. That's where it gets tricky.
 

Thordaddy

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Yamahopper said:
Shelf life of the running QB and the read option will be about 4 years. After that the guy will get so beat up that he will have to become a pocket passer to survive. They won't take as many hits a RB, but they aren't made to take that punishment season after season.
But there is a lot of these guys in college so there will always be a supply.
If you have a running QB as a starter the backup will have to be one too. That's where it gets tricky.
Many RB's play through sore shoulders where they cane not lift their arm above their head.
I agree the shelf life is short ,so was the Redskins deal to our benefit? I think so ,I think it was a franchise maker for us and easily could be a breaker for them
 

brokeu91

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Thordaddy said:
Many RB's play through sore shoulders where they cane not lift their arm above their head.
That's an excellent point. A RB doesn't need that shoulder/arm nearly as much as a QB does. Just a bit of shoulder tenderness could affect a QB's throwing motion which can affect their accuracy. With the small throwing windows in the NFL anything affecting accuracy can doom a QB. Remember how bad Bradford looked after his ankle injury? He couldn't plant as well and his accuracy suffered. Imagine that happening to QBs all of the time.