Is the pistol offense the future, or a passing fad?

[-X-]

Been wondering why it wouldn't be. It wasn't long ago that the WCO was a "fad", and the league itself started as a run-only sport before someone decided, "hell with it - I'm throwing this thing." So what's to say that the proliferation of running QBs won't become the norm in the not-so-distant future?

Is it *really* going to be cast aside because of the relative lack of success in the past from guys like Vick, McNabb, Kordell, et al? Are read-option QBs *really* more prone to injury than pocket passers like Manning, Brady and Palmer (who missed entire seasons due to injury)?

Since the college ranks are producing more read-option QBs, it's safe to say that this copy-cat league very well could run with the success these other teams are demonstrating with this type of offense and soon it could actually become more prevalent than your standard pro offense. Particularly when you factor in how much more fast and strong these young athletes are becoming.

Final question. All things being equal. Would a disciplined defense with hard hitting playmakers be more effective against read-option QBs, or would they be more effective against pocket passers? Or is it a matter of designing your defense to defend one more than the other? Charles Woodson recently added a comment from his POV concerning this issue...

[textarea]"The one thing it does is it kind of makes you a little bit indecisive in what you want to do,'' Green Bay defensive back Charles Woodson said. "You want to shoot in there but he may hold the ball and take it outside. If you go outside he might give it to the running back and take it up the middle. It's one of those things that makes you play flat-footed a little bit.''

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2013/f ... z2IRRFmQfs[/textarea]
Makes you wonder if this really is ... "just a trend."

Thoughts?

 

[CGI_Ram]

Its a good topic and question.

The run-and-shoot had it's moment in time where teams had to adjust.

No doubt the Rams 2013 draft and FA strategy will be influenced by the fact we play 4 games against Wilson and Kaeperdick each season. Speedy linebackers and safeties, and physical corners will be a priority.

Kaeperdick and Wilson might end up being the guys that hold up best. They are more physical than RG3.

But; to your question; when the most important position on your team is expected to run and take hits... that's going to be a risky cocktail. For this reason, I don't know if it's a fad but it might end up being a boom or bust strategy for teams that deploy the read-option.

Lose your QB, lose your season. While that's true with most any starting QB, the risk is higher with the read-option guys.

I also think teams will adjust to defend it. With guys like Vick, he didn't have the passing skills to beat you consistently with his arm. I think RG3 is the better passer out of Wilson and Kaeperdick. So, take away the run and you take away a big part of the offense.

 

[-X-]

Its a good topic and question.

The run-and-shoot had it's moment in time where teams had to adjust.

No doubt the Rams 2013 draft and FA strategy will be influenced by the fact we play 4 games against Wilson and Kaeperdick each season. Speedy linebackers and safeties, and physical corners will be a priority.

Kaeperdick and Wilson might end up being the guys that hold up best. They are more physical than RG3.

But; to your question; when the most important position on your team is expected to run and take hits... that's going to be a risky cocktail. For this reason, I don't know if it's a fad but it might end up being a boom or bust strategy for teams that deploy the read-option.

Lose your QB, lose your season. While that's true with most any starting QB, the risk is higher with the read-option guys.

I also think teams will adjust to defend it. With guys like Vick, he didn't have the passing skills to beat you consistently with his arm. I think RG3 is the better passer out of Wilson and Kaeperdick. So, take away the run and you take away a big part of the offense.

Did you know that Wilson was actually better *inside* the pocket (as a passer) than outside of it?

 

[CGI_Ram]

Its a good topic and question.

The run-and-shoot had it's moment in time where teams had to adjust.

No doubt the Rams 2013 draft and FA strategy will be influenced by the fact we play 4 games against Wilson and Kaeperdick each season. Speedy linebackers and safeties, and physical corners will be a priority.

Kaeperdick and Wilson might end up being the guys that hold up best. They are more physical than RG3.

But; to your question; when the most important position on your team is expected to run and take hits... that's going to be a risky cocktail. For this reason, I don't know if it's a fad but it might end up being a boom or bust strategy for teams that deploy the read-option.

Lose your QB, lose your season. While that's true with most any starting QB, the risk is higher with the read-option guys.

I also think teams will adjust to defend it. With guys like Vick, he didn't have the passing skills to beat you consistently with his arm. I think RG3 is the better passer out of Wilson and Kaeperdick. So, take away the run and you take away a big part of the offense.

Did you know that Wilson was actually better *inside* the pocket (as a passer) than outside of it?

I can't say I knew that, no. But, we see a lot of Seattle and I'm not overly impressed with his accuracy. I'm not suggesting it's on par with Vick, no way. He's much better.

At the end of the day; Wilson might be my favourite of the run option guys. I still wonder if his height might hurt him somewhere along the way, but so far he's working around that shortcoming :sly: just fine.

 

[ramsince62]

Two thoughts....the longevity of the pistol will likely be determined by defensive schemes success (or lack of) against it. Once something works, it tends to last until it isn't successful any longer.

Regarding height challenged QB's, two material examples come to mind:

Doug Flute who to my mind was simply a "winner" and there's no accounting for that, height or no height.

Pat Haden, was both cerebral and effective his first couple of years..... that is until he began breaking his thumbs on rushing linemen helmets. For shorter QB's it's matter of using passing lanes. Therefore, it's equally material for defenses to close those lanes and that's what eventually happened to Haden and to some degree Flute. I doubt if Wilson's career will be much different.

 

[nighttrain]

As a big fan of Kenny "the Snake" Stabler, he said it best..

"i've seen a lot of great young running QB's, but no old ones".

I'd kinda like to see my QB have a career of more than 4-5 years..
train

 

[CGI_Ram]

As a big fan of Kenny "the Snake" Stabler, he said it best..

"i've seen a lot of great young running QB's, but no old ones".

I'd kinda like to see my QB have a career of more than 4-5 years..
train

That's the wild card right there.

Vick; couldn't hold up.

RG3; struggled to hold up.

Will Kaeperdick and Wilson hold up? Will others? How healthy will RG3 be next year?

 

[bluecoconuts]

As a big fan of Kenny "the Snake" Stabler, he said it best..

"i've seen a lot of great young running QB's, but no old ones".

I'd kinda like to see my QB have a career of more than 4-5 years..
train

That's the wild card right there.

Vick; couldn't hold up.

RG3; struggled to hold up.

Will Kaeperdick and Wilson hold up? Will others? How healthy will RG3 be next year?

Kaepernick maybe, but not forever. He's going to need to learn how to beat you with his arm, not his legs. Wilson I honestly think will be on the bench within 5 years. Not an injury problem, just a height problem. Rams have done a good job of making him look uncomfortable. He'll escape the pocket and extend plays, but if you do what the Rams do, you can beat on him on a bit. Defenses will key in on that.

The pistol, I don't think will last that long.

 

[jrry32]

The pistol might last in the form of being another formation that teams use but as an offense, it will not. And I think the read option is a total fad. Once teams start playing more disciplined and abusing the QB, it'll be dropped.

 

[brokeu91]

The pistol might last in the form of being another formation that teams use but as an offense, it will not. And I think the read option is a total fad. Once teams start playing more disciplined and abusing the QB, it'll be dropped.

I do think the Pistol is a fad, and that sooner or later, defenses will know how to defend it. The NFL hasn't really had to defend against it yet. That being said, the Rams did a pretty good job (compared to others) at defending it. They need another fast OLB, which if they are able to get that, will really help contain the QBs.

 

[RamsNation]

My guess is a fad and its hot right now so I'm sure lots of people will jump on it and claim its gonna revolutionize football but I wouldn't count on it.Who knows though,personally I don't see it lasting long term.But at the same time with these new age QB's like Keap,Russell,RG3 coming in more frequently it might be around for 5-10 years tho.

 

[Thordaddy]

My guess is a fad and its hot right now so I'm sure lots of people will jump on it and claim its gonna revolutionize football but I wouldn't count on it.Who knows though,personally I don't see it lasting long term.But at the same time with these new age QB's like Keap,Russell,RG3 coming in more frequently it might be around for 5-10 years tho.

If the pistol and the running QB is going to be the wave of the future it's going to require one of two things to occur ,shorten the schedule to 11 games with only one bowl game(No Playoffs) or teams are going to have to have two QB's who play that style game, cuz the starter isn't going to last 16 games, so when the 1st guy goes down you don't have to install a new offense .Matt Shaub was not the correct QB to backup Vick but got his chance to show his stuff cuz Vick was sure to get hurt. Kirk Cousins has become great trade bait for the Skins because wonder of wonders, RG got hurt, in much the way Shaub did.

BTW Kaepernick didn't play UNTIL Smith was hurt ,so he hasn't made it 16 plus 2 preseason plus 2 playoff games and thereby proven he could endure without injury and the sort you get from the two bodies colliding at top speed .

Like train sez Stabler's right, no longevity and after the Skins mortgaged the future for RG, Atlanta for Vick and a few more high priced much coveted guys wreck franchises with the promise teams (some of whom already do) will say "show me one who produces the number of SB appearances of Elway, Brady, Montana, Bradshaw, THEN,I'll go for one.

 

[Selassie I]

The read-option offense is just too dangerous for QBs at the NFL level. College coaches actually started using it as a result of it being run at the HS level. Lots of good athletes with great wheels, but the talented arm is still just as elusive as it's ever been. HS coaches can utilize the wheels of the best athlete on the team, and by playing him at QB, they maximize the number of times he has the ball in his hands. It works at the HS level because there is usually inferior talent all over the field that can be taken advantage of.

College coaches recruit these great athletes obviously. Watching film of the read-option has led them to incorporate some of it into their own stuff to run at the college level. There is still a level of inferiority in talent at the college level. Not as much as HS, but it's still there. So the read-option can still be an effective weapon that doesn't expose your QB to unreasonable punishment.

The talent level in the NFL is just too even. NFL coaches are doing what they can to try and get a leg up on the defenses,,, tapping into what some of these great athletes are used to running in college is a natural progression. It just won't last in it's present form. QBs are not going to last, and defenses are going to become way more familiar with it.


Now having said all that,,, football is always evolving. Parts of the read-option will become a mainstay at all levels, and the pistol formation is one of those parts that I believe has found a permanent home at all levels. Having a RB behind the QB while he's in shotgun just makes too much sense sometimes. Surprised it has taken this long to see really.


Watch,,, in 6 years, every NFL team will be exclusively running the read-option. :7up:

 

[-X-]

My guess is a fad and its hot right now so I'm sure lots of people will jump on it and claim its gonna revolutionize football but I wouldn't count on it.Who knows though,personally I don't see it lasting long term.But at the same time with these new age QB's like Keap,Russell,RG3 coming in more frequently it might be around for 5-10 years tho.

If the pistol and the running QB is going to be the wave of the future it's going to require one of two things to occur ,shorten the schedule to 11 games with only one bowl game(No Playoffs) or teams are going to have to have two QB's who play that style game, cuz the starter isn't going to last 16 games, so when the 1st guy goes down you don't have to install a new offense .Matt Shaub was not the correct QB to backup Vick but got his chance to show his stuff cuz Vick was sure to get hurt. Kirk Cousins has become great trade bait for the Skins because wonder of wonders, RG got hurt, in much the way Shaub did.

BTW Kaepernick didn't play UNTIL Smith was hurt ,so he hasn't made it 16 plus 2 preseason plus 2 playoff games and thereby proven he could endure without injury and the sort you get from the two bodies colliding at top speed .

Like train sez Stabler's right, no longevity and after the Skins mortgaged the future for RG, Atlanta for Vick and a few more high priced much coveted guys wreck franchises with the promise teams (some of whom already do) will say "show me one who produces the number of SB appearances of Elway, Brady, Montana, Bradshaw, THEN,I'll go for one.

An interesting side discussion to this (well, kinda -- since I put it in the OP) is how much more *at risk* are running QBs than their more statuesque counterparts? Pocket passers that rely on blindside protection, I submit, are equally as vulnerable to injury. If a LT for a RH quarterback whiffs on his block and the rusher comes free, then that QB is going to get ROCKED. And we've seen it happen a bunch of times too over the course of our respective viewing histories. Same thing with QBs who have their arm at the highest release point, only to have a DT or LB crush them on a blitz up the middle.

The only way, IMO, for this to be just a passing fad, is if defenses do indeed adapt and shut it down. But as Charles Woodson flat-out said, his job becomes twice as hard when he has to account for that added dimension to an offense. Maybe twice as hard isn't the right phrase. He has more responsibility and has more than one guy he has to watch. Even if you just have to put a spy on these kinds of QBs, that leaves one less guy in coverage or on rushes.

We have a couple more very mobile QBs coming out this year (Geno Smith and EJ Manuel), and Chip Kelly in Philly who ran that zone-read offense exclusively in Oregon, so I think we might get a better look into the trend this has become. If those guys step in as rookies and have immediate success running these types of offenses, or if Chip puts together another read-option offense, then it definitely warrants keeping an eye on not only how defenses adapt, but how many other offenses piggy-back on it.

 

[fearsomefour]

Being in Northern Nevada I got to watch Kaepernick his entire college career....I was bummed he went to the whiners as this meant I had to vote for him to fail, so it goes.

The biggest reason I think the pistol wont take hold everywhere is it requires a special kind of athletic QB. Considering that the traditional drop back QB has been the standard for decades and NFL teams cant find 32 guys to do this at a high enough level I find it very doubtful that finding QBs that have NFL ability as passers AND have the athletism to be effective in the pistol is going to happen.

Teams may try to implement elements of it....its as much about the alignments as the plays, but, I dont see 20 teams with run options every Sunday.

 

[nighttrain]

Being in Northern Nevada I got to watch Kaepernick his entire college career....I was bummed he went to the whiners as this meant I had to vote for him to fail, so it goes.

The biggest reason I think the pistol wont take hold everywhere is it requires a special kind of athletic QB. Considering that the traditional drop back QB has been the standard for decades and NFL teams cant find 32 guys to do this at a high enough level I find it very doubtful that finding QBs that have NFL ability as passers AND have the athletism to be effective in the pistol is going to happen.

Teams may try to implement elements of it....its as much about the alignments as the plays, but, I dont see 20 teams with run options every Sunday.

definitely takes a special QB, one that can learn how to read the D, and see their 2nd & 3rd progressions after the knees are gone.

they, the running QB, can run, but they cant hide..this is why RB or TB, or HB, you choose, have a 5 year life expectancy in the NFL

train

 

[jimitroutboy]

There are in reality three different concepts hidden in this offense.

The read option, the pistol and the running quarterbacks.

The pistol doesn't necessarily have to contain the read option. I actually think a conventional passing game with boots and sprint outs and lots of screens can be executed better from the pistol than it can from the deeper shotgun.

Running quarterbacks or scramblers have always been a factor in the NFL. I think Wilson operates best from under the center and scrambling than he does running the pistol or shotgun for example.

The read or zone option is a pistol specific play that can be defensed and stopped but NFL teams are acting by and large as if its the newest thing under the sun. You can bet a lot of staffs are going to spend a tremendous amount of time watching college game film this offseason to see what to do.

One of the things I think you will eventually see is more 43 teams instead of the 34 zone blitz scheme so much in vogue. Having two defensive tackles to stop the inside hand off allows the Dend to stay put and not crash down and chase the first move of the QB. If you watched the last Seattle/49er game the 49er 34 was eaten alive by the first move of Wilson and couldn't generate enough inside push to get into his face. Whereas the Rams front was able to do that in both games.

There is a lot of discussion on twitter and blogs about the injury effects on the QB. I think it is more pertinent to think about the player than the position. RG III is only 218 pounds maybe Cam Newton is closer to 250. Kaeperdoodle is better able to run it than Wilson is. I think Wilson is going to come back to the pack some next year once teams watch how the Rams defensed him.

Running a pitch option out of the pistol is foolish and asking for nothing but broken ribs for the QB. I would think that the Redskins would junk that play this year but they seem determined to get RG III killed.

 

[-X-]

There are in reality three different concepts hidden in this offense.

The read option, the pistol and the running quarterbacks.

The pistol doesn't necessarily have to contain the read option. I actually think a conventional passing game with boots and sprint outs and lots of screens can be executed better from the pistol than it can from the deeper shotgun.

Running quarterbacks or scramblers have always been a factor in the NFL. I think Wilson operates best from under the center and scrambling than he does running the pistol or shotgun for example.

The read or zone option is a pistol specific play that can be defensed and stopped but NFL teams are acting by and large as if its the newest thing under the sun. You can bet a lot of staffs are going to spend a tremendous amount of time watching college game film this offseason to see what to do.

One of the things I think you will eventually see is more 43 teams instead of the 34 zone blitz scheme so much in vogue. Having two defensive tackles to stop the inside hand off allows the Dend to stay put and not crash down and chase the first move of the QB. If you watched the last Seattle/49er game the 49er 34 was eaten alive by the first move of Wilson and couldn't generate enough inside push to get into his face. Whereas the Rams front was able to do that in both games.

There is a lot of discussion on twitter and blogs about the injury effects on the QB. I think it is more pertinent to think about the player than the position. RG III is only 218 pounds maybe Cam Newton is closer to 250. Kaeperdoodle is better able to run it than Wilson is. I think Wilson is going to come back to the pack some next year once teams watch how the Rams defensed him.

Running a pitch option out of the pistol is foolish and asking for nothing but broken ribs for the QB. I would think that the Redskins would junk that play this year but they seem determined to get RG III killed.

All good points.

In no particular order, I agree that ....

Newton and Kaeperdoodle might have more success running than Griffin or Wilson. Longevity in this league is directly tied to being able to absorb hits over time. I don't see the latter's careers running parallel to the former.

Wilson looks to be like a gamer. Sad as it is for me to say. His height is no more a handicap than Drew Brees' height, or Doug Flutie's height. You can either play, or you can't. And he is more successful standing in the pocket than he is out on the move, too. I hate that team with a burning passion, but that kid seems to be an alright dude.

And really, all that matters, is that the Rams defense is capable of containing these guys. What they appear incapable of (to this point) is generating enough inside presser to keep the more adept pocket passers from lighting up our secondary like a Christmas tree. And I still think that Long/Quinn too often take an upfield path to the QB and get washed out too easily. I love Quinn, but I don't know if he's strong enough to ever develop an effective bull-rush. Re-signing Hayes seems like a must.

 

[nighttrain]

And really, all that matters, is that the Rams defense is capable of containing these guys. What they appear incapable of (to this point) is generating enough inside presser to keep the more adept pocket passers from lighting up our secondary like a Christmas tree. And I still think that Long/Quinn too often take an upfield path to the QB and get washed out too easily. I love Quinn, but I don't know if he's strong enough to ever develop an effective bull-rush.

Quinn just finished 2nd year, look back on what was said about Long in same situation..
train

 

[-X-]

And really, all that matters, is that the Rams defense is capable of containing these guys. What they appear incapable of (to this point) is generating enough inside presser to keep the more adept pocket passers from lighting up our secondary like a Christmas tree. And I still think that Long/Quinn too often take an upfield path to the QB and get washed out too easily. I love Quinn, but I don't know if he's strong enough to ever develop an effective bull-rush.

Quinn just finished 2nd year, look back on what was said about Long in same situation..
train

Yeah, I know he can still develop. The knock on Long (from the dopey fans) was that he didn't have enough sacks to justify his draft position. I don't know that anyone said he wasn't strong enough, but I don't know that for sure. I try not to read the more ridiculous criticisms out there, don'tcha know.

And I'm not down on Quinn. He's a tenacious pass rusher. If our interior pass rush continues to develop, then he'll have QBs standing there on those sweeping pursuits of his. With nothing to step into, they'll have no choice but to continue to drop back. And there he'll be.

Waiting. :yeh: