Greg Cosell Talks Rams, Robinson, QB's, Gregg Williams + More

[RamBill]

Greg Cosell joins Frank Cusumano to talk NFL and Rams. Cosell says that the fact that Robinson isn’t starting in Week 1 is irrelevant. He compares Shaun Hill and Clemons and says Hill will push the ball down the field much more than Clemons did. He talks about Ogletree and Tavon Austin, comparing Austin to Harvin in how they should use him. Harvin is stronger than Austin though. Cosell likes Gregg Williams as a D-Coordinator. He talks about the match up with the Vikings and the Rams prospects for the season. Good Stuff from Cosell

Listen to Greg Cosell Talk Rams

 

[Oldgeek]

Greg Cosell never pulls any punches and will always give his honest opinion, good or bad. All without the East/West coast hype.

 

[Alan]

While I agree with almost everything he said, using the word irrelevant was a mistaken use of the word. I'm talking about the first time he said it. The second time he said it was fine. Not only did he use the word incorrectly, I disagree with the thought he was trying to convey. It isn't meaningless (the word he should have used) that he's not been able to improve on/learn the pass defense skills he needs to start. It doesn't mean he won't learn them but his ability to pass block at a high enough level to start at LG isn't reassuring. I doubt many of us and possibly/probably the Rams too, thought he wouldn't be able to start at the less demanding (pass defense wise) position of LG. That's obvious in that, among other things, he was taking the first team reps at that position while Donald was 2nd/3rd string in practice.

I have a fairly high degree of confidence that, due to his extraordinary level of athleticism, he'll figure it out and be a force at LG/LT down the line. I'd argue that we need him now though. I'd also find it hard to disagree with someone who thinks that, at his present level of development, he isn't even a decent backup at G or T if we lose one of our starters. To me, it's just another example of the flawed thinking process they used when drafting him instead of Matthews. Much of that flawed thinking is the direct result, IMO, of the overconfidence they have in Boo's ability to coach players up. I like Boo and I think he's a very good O-line coach but I see nothing magical there.

He's a Ram now so the rest is water under the bridge but let's not stick our heads in the sand and ignore reality.

 

[bomebadeeda]

I don't get all the ainst over GRob's progression. Everyone attached to the club feels he's making progress. And it just so happens we have 2 guys who can play the position better than he can....right now. No mistakes on the job and a rising rook in there as a back up. To me this is a good thing that our team is talented enough to let rookies evolve on a better time table instead of having to cost the team as they learn.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lunchbox]

To take what Bome says a step further do any of you who wanted the Rams to draft Matthews think he would be starting the first game over any of the named starters on our team? Of course it's possible he might as a more polished prospect but the fact is it wouldn't be necessary for him to do so.

I'm fine with GR and happy the Rams drafted him. I think he's going to be a stud in this league.

 

[Alan]

bomebadeeda conflating my post with others:
I don't get all the ainst over GRob's progression. Everyone attached to the club feels he's making progress. And it just so happens we have 2 guys who can play the position better than he can....right now. No mistakes on the job and a rising rook in there as a back up. To me this is a good thing that our team is talented enough to let rookies evolve on a better time table instead of having to cost the team as they learn.

A couple things here.

We had this discussion about GR not starting in a different thread and I'm not expressing any angst here about his progress. I'm not putting my head in the sand either.

This says almost nothing about the talent level of our O-line. I'm pretty confident that the infamous Shelly Smith would be starting instead of GR too if we didn't have Joseph. Sure, having Joseph to replace him until he gets up to speed is a very good thing but that's one comparatively old recently injured guy and without him, I'm pretty sure we'd be starting GR due to a lack of quality alternatives. I want to make my position on the O-line clear, we have no depth. We didn't try to draft Martin because we had depth. That's not unlike many other teams though. I'm not sure I'm very comforted knowing that.

 

[Alan]

Lunchbox with a somewhat unrelated question:
To take what Bome says a step further do any of you who wanted the Rams to draft Matthews think he would be starting the first game over any of the named starters on our team? Of course it's possible he might as a more polished prospect but the fact is it wouldn't be necessary for him to do so.

Matthews is a different animal. I doubt they would have drafted Matthews with the thought of moving him to guard until he learned how to pass block. RT sure but not guard. As far as him starting, Yes, I think he'd be our starting RT with Barksdale in reserve but who knows. The point is, you can't look at the two of them through the same lens.

 

[bomebadeeda]

I'm pretty confident that the infamous Shelly Smith would be starting instead of GR too if we didn't have Joseph.

Wow......... I don't even know how to respond. But I'll try.
Smith sucked. So I guess what you are trying to convey is................
I'll let our guards' performance speak of their own merits tomorrow. But we may need to revisit these thoughts down the road. I love your wording on posts Alan. But I think you ended up throwing out the wrong analogy to try to get your thoughts across......

 

[BonifayRam]

Matthews is a different animal. I doubt they would have drafted Matthews with the thought of moving him to guard until he learned how to pass block. RT sure but not guard. As far as him starting, Yes, I think he'd be our starting RT with Barksdale in reserve but who knows. The point is, you can't look at the two of them through the same lens.

If you recall I was fine with Matthews or Robinson. There was no secret as to what both theses OL'ers would bring. My thoughts on Matthews was he would be able to cover the OLT post until Long was 100% ready. Once Long was fully healed Matthews would be the teams 3rd OT. The early 2014 major concerns & issues was @ OG but they would remain with the Matthews pick. With the Robinson you would attack those major concerns @ OLG instantly! Plus secure the Rams a future dominating OLT for the future. The need for a third OT would still remain.

Currently with the Robinson selection & they also got a short term GOLD Nugget in 2014 when veteran pro bowler OG Davin Joseph surprises the Rams with his signing thus the OG posts now looks to be in the best condition since 2003 season. This OG Joseph addition is huge because it would now permit Saffold in 2014 to be what Matthews would have been the Third OT if need be with Robinson taking up the vacated OLG post !

I have no ideal what will come in the way of injuries in this OL in 2014 but when UFA'cy comes early next season at least for the moment the Rams could make strong bids for both ORG Davin Joseph & ORT Joe Barksdale as future Rams & secure this frail OL some. I see the Robinson selection as the better pick now due to the above happenings. Robinson being what he is falls nicely into place with what is ongoing with Boudreau's present OL.

 

[Alan]

bomebadeeda with a confusing response:
Wow......... I don't even know how to respond. But I'll try.
Smith sucked. So I guess what you are trying to convey is................
I'll let our guards' performance speak of their own merits tomorrow. But we may need to revisit these thoughts down the road.

Now we're both scratching our heads.
I'm saying that at the present moment, GR isn't a better guard than SS was for us last year. The performance of our guards this year will tell us nothing about my contention because Shelly isn't on our team anymore. Maybe you thought I was saying that SS is a better G than Saffold or Joseph? Now that would be hilarious.

Of course I could be wrong about SS being a better G last year than GR is this year. One of our experts (Bonifay, jrry, CoachO et cetera) might have a different opinion about that but for now, that's what I think from everything I've heard and seen about him in practice and the preseason. He isn't even run blocking well, supposedly due to his thinking too much. More to the point though is that you seem to be missing or glossing over my main point which is WE DON"T HAVE DEPTH on the O-line.

 

[Alan]

BonifayRam joining the fray:
There was no secret as to what both theses OL'ers would bring. My thoughts on Matthews was he would be able to cover the OLT post until Long was 100% ready. Once Long was fully healed Matthews would be the teams 3rd OT. The early 2014 major concerns & issues was @ OG but they would remain with the Matthews pick. With the Robinson you would attack those major concerns @ OLG instantly! Plus secure the Rams a future dominating OLT for the future. The need for a third OT would still remain.

Currently with the Robinson selection & they also got a short term GOLD Nugget in 2014 when veteran pro bowler OG Davin Joseph surprises the Rams with his signing thus the OG posts now looks to be in the best condition since 2003 season. This OG Joseph addition is huge because it would now permit Saffold in 2014 to be what Matthews would have been the Third OT if need be with Robinson taking up the vacated OLG post !

I have no ideal what will come in the way of injuries in this OL in 2014 but when UFA'cy comes early next season at least for the moment the Rams could make strong bids for both ORG Davin Joseph & ORT Joe Barksdale as future Rams & secure this frail OL some. I see the Robinson selection as the better pick now due to the above happenings. Robinson being what he is falls nicely into place with what is ongoing with Boudreau's present OL.

I was hoping you'd jump in Bonifay.

I agree with your reasoning here with the exception of the bolded stuff. Barks may have beaten Matthews out and of course Matthews would make a better swing OT because he, unlike Barks, can play LT but I'm not so sure we'd have our best 5 on the field with Barks starting. We'll never know though.

So how would you compare SS's play at guard last year to GR's level of play this year? I think SS was better at pass D (even though he sucked) than GR is right now. What do you think?

 

[jjab360]

I'm pretty confident that the infamous Shelly Smith would be starting instead of GR too if we didn't have Joseph.

I disagree.

 

[Alan]

jjab360 with a different view:
I disagree.

It's kind of like debating whether Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth was the better HR hitter. We'll never know the answer to that or this. You could be right or I could be right but the greater point about our lack of depth would remain the same.

BTW, Just to be clear, I was talking about him at G and not at T.

 

[Lunchbox]

We had inexperienced/questionable depth on the line last year too.

Gone from 2013: H Dahl, C Williams, S Smith
New for 2014: D Joseph, G Robinson
Holdovers: Starters - Long (finished 2013 on IR), Saffold (injured end of 2013), Wells (finished 2013 on IR), Barksdale
Reserves - Barnes, Person, B Jones
Practice Squad: B Washington, M Remmers

Essentially we replaced Dahl, Williams and Smith with D Joseph, Jones and GRob. Biggest differences another year of experience for Barnes and Person, Jones taking a roster spot, and an upgrade in talent in Joseph and GRob.

I'd say our line is better overall but the thought of injuries does make me a little nervous. That said, to be honest I feel much better about an inexperienced GRob in reserve than I ever did about Williams and/or Smith as starters (shudder!)

 

[BonifayRam]

I was hoping you'd jump in Bonifay.

I agree with your reasoning here with the exception of the bolded stuff. Barks may have beaten Matthews out and of course Matthews would make a better swing OT because he, unlike Barks, can play LT but I'm not so sure we'd have our best 5 on the field with Barks starting. We'll never know though.

So how would you compare SS's play at guard last year to GR's level of play this year? I think SS was better at pass D (even though he sucked) than GR is right now. What do you think?

In bringing up our last two seasons third OG Shelley Smith ....Smith has won the starting ORG post in Miami after a big F A I L @ center. They have issues @ center. The OL play in Miami is far from what Boudreau is playing. The undersized Smith style is built for the zone OL blocking scheme. Smith will do just fine in Miami. One the big reasons IMO Jake Long came here instead of remaining in south Florida was the type Boudreau OL play fits his way of playing. Once again here I am just guessing but Smith's heart was lacking in his play last season & it came out in his play in 2013....he knew he was not a fit here. IMO Smith played much better in 2012. Its for the best that Shelley Smith found a team that fits him better.

I think Boudreau's hobby is fixing & refurbishing used OL furniture. Some short term some long term i.e. Harvey Dahl from ORT to starting ORG in 2008, In 2012 ...ORT Barry Richardson, Robert Turner, Wayne Hunter & Shelley Smith then in 2013 OLG Chris Williams & Joe Barksdale. Now it looks like 4 yr vet Mike Person is a good piece of work in the process. Boudreau just likes to refurbish OL'ers. His best work is Barksdale. Thus far maybe his front show window case material is JB. Looks like that new re-framing job on Barksdale while never flashy or pretty has held real sturdy & strong now in his 4th season with 38 NFL games under his belt & 15 starts. I just do not think Matthews would have been given a chance to UNseat JB due to all the action he would have put in @ OLT post in OTA/TC & preseason.

While he may be just as good in building from the beginning I do not have any examples. One could argue that Rok Watkins & Barrett Jones would not be fair examples either. We will see just how well he can build from this point on with Greg Robinson & when Barrett finally gets healthy. Bottom line the evidence is clear to me.

I think its just a small matter of time before the massive Robinson settles in @ OLG post & begins to Blast holes bigger than the grand cannon. Saffold will be playing elsewhere due to his own injury or due to other OL'ers injuries. Saffold health will always be a concern for me it may fit the team for later this season for him to be that 6th OL'ers who can let Fisher only dress 7 OL'ers with Barnes.

 

[bomebadeeda]

It's kind of like debating whether Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth was the better HR hitter. We'll never know the answer to that or this. You could be right or I could be right but the greater point about our lack of depth would remain the same.

BTW, Just to be clear, I was talking about him at G and not at T.

I think what you're conveying, isn't the message you think it is. Trying to equate the difference between great players is one thing. But using a horrible player as an analogy and then try to use that differential to prove a point is completely lost because of your weak starting point of Shelly Smith. I believe we have depth, based on the "Golden Nugget" (good call Bonifay....) that surpassed what was perceived at the draft and gave us the versatility that will prove a boon and not the deficiency many have tried put forth based on GRob not starting.
Using as an example, imagine GRob as a number. He still is the same value whether he starts or not. Now you have added Joseph that when he played before was a higher number (not to mention we paid dearly for the Safford number as well.....), And he's already show he appears to be back closer to his old self than it was perceived around the league (having signed a 1 year "prove it" contract w/ us.....) and so we have the luxury of having his to play at his higher number and still have GRob's value if needed.....which in any equation would still be much higher than what Shelly "lookout block" Smith put forth. (And for the uninitiated....a "lookout block" is where the player realizes he is beat and turns around to the QB and hollers "Look Out!"..........).

 

[DR RAM]

Robinson is struggling with the playbook a little bit, and I think it's to be expected, so no worries here. Physically, he's already had some better blocks than many OL'men over the past several years. The fact that Fisher will start the best 5 right now, is a good thing for the team. You have to earn your spot, and we can't get someone hurt, because someone misses their assignment. Robinson is like a 1000 piece puzzle, as opposed to a 500 piece puzzle, so the the end product will be better, but it take more time to solve.

Matthews hasn't started a game yet, either, and although I would have been happy with him, I saw him struggle in preseason too. I don't think we missed with G. Rob, but I will admit if we did, when the time is appropriate, that time IS NOT now. I don't need to make any more comparisons, because people here have already made plenty of them. Everyone will be happy with him, but let's give him just a little time to adjust. When he stops thinking, and starts playing, everyone will see why he is special.

 

[Alan]

bomebadeeda right about one thing:
I think what you're conveying, isn't the message you think it is. Trying to equate the difference between great players is one thing. But using a horrible player as an analogy and then try to use that differential to prove a point is completely lost because of your weak starting point of Shelly Smith. I believe we have depth, based on the "Golden Nugget" (good call Bonifay....) that surpassed what was perceived at the draft and gave us the versatility that will prove a boon and not the deficiency many have tried put forth based on GRob not starting.
Using as an example, imagine GRob as a number. He still is the same value whether he starts or not. Now you have added Joseph that when he played before was a higher number (not to mention we paid dearly for the Safford number as well.....), And he's already show he appears to be back closer to his old self than it was perceived around the league (having signed a 1 year "prove it" contract w/ us.....) and so we have the luxury of having his to play at his higher number and still have GRob's value if needed.....which in any equation would still be much higher than what Shelly "lookout block" Smith put forth. (And for the uninitiated....a "lookout block" is where the player realizes he is beat and turns around to the QB and hollers "Look Out!"..........).
You're right that I don't seem to be conveying my message. My analogy had nothing to do with how good they were, despite how I worded it, it had to do with the fact that you can't compare two different players from two different eras or circumstances. We don't have both of them playing on our team at the same time to make any valid comparisons as to which is better. All you can say for sure is that they were the best during their eras.

As for the comparison between GR and SS, I think you're comparing the player you think GR will be to the player SS was when he was a Ram. I'm comparing the play of GR NOW to the play of SS when he was a Ram. Completely different conversation.

The rest of your post , much like Bonifay's, is all stuff that I agree with or will probably be true in the future but is immaterial to what I was/am talking about now. If you read what I said about GR not starting in Sum's thread then you know how I feel about GR's eventual level of play/worth to the team. The sooner the better though.

 

[Alan]

DR RAM with this gem:
Matthews hasn't started a game yet, either, and although I would have been happy with him, I saw him struggle in preseason too.

Somehow I missed this the first time I read your post. Are you saying this from your own observations or did you read that somewhere? I ask because I could swear I read that too and yet I can't remember where. I've been trying to remember that for days now. I hate when that happens.

Well stated in your post Doc! Totally agree too.

 

[Alan]

BonifayRam with good stuff:
Stuff.

So do you think that GR's play so far this year, while less than stellar, is still better than Shelly's was last year?