Freakonomics: Does Defense Win Championships?

[Ram Quixote]

The answer is YES. Defense wins championships.

All by itself? Not really.

"all by itself." WTH? What kind of a response is that?

Without that safety how do the last few minutes of the game play out? A defense that can score points is frequently the difference in the game. Same for STs too.

If the Patriots TE wasn't hurt, and the receivers weren't drop happy, there's a good chance that game looks a lot different.

Defense is key, I agree. But you need an offense at least capable of scoring when they need.

Yet the Giants offense without the two points from their defense could well have lost 20-19. My point being the 2 points gained on defense were crucial....the offense couldn't score enough to render those two points superfluous.

Well, the defense didn't score enough to make the other 19 points the offense scored superfluous. :hehe:

You can't say the safety in the first quarter is any more important than the TD in the 4th. It's a flawed argument. Offense and Defense are equally important to the game. Each gets its moment to shine, and teams normally can't survive without one of them.

 

[Anonymous]

The answer is YES. Defense wins championships.

All by itself? Not really.

"all by itself." WTH? What kind of a response is that?

Without that safety how do the last few minutes of the game play out? A defense that can score points is frequently the difference in the game. Same for STs too.

If the Patriots TE wasn't hurt, and the receivers weren't drop happy, there's a good chance that game looks a lot different.

Defense is key, I agree. But you need an offense at least capable of scoring when they need.

Yet the Giants offense without the two points from their defense could well have lost 20-19. My point being the 2 points gained on defense were crucial....the offense couldn't score enough to render those two points superfluous.

Well, the defense didn't score enough to make the other 19 points the offense scored superfluous. :hehe:

You can't say the safety in the first quarter is any more important than the TD in the 4th.

Sure I can. The score says so. Time of possession says so too. 2 points plus the ball is big in what turns out to be a close game.

 

[Ram Quixote]

The answer is YES. Defense wins championships.

All by itself? Not really.

"all by itself." WTH? What kind of a response is that?

Without that safety how do the last few minutes of the game play out? A defense that can score points is frequently the difference in the game. Same for STs too.

If the Patriots TE wasn't hurt, and the receivers weren't drop happy, there's a good chance that game looks a lot different.

Defense is key, I agree. But you need an offense at least capable of scoring when they need.

Yet the Giants offense without the two points from their defense could well have lost 20-19. My point being the 2 points gained on defense were crucial....the offense couldn't score enough to render those two points superfluous.

Well, the defense didn't score enough to make the other 19 points the offense scored superfluous. :hehe:

You can't say the safety in the first quarter is any more important than the TD in the 4th.

Sure I can. The score says so. Time of possession says so too. 2 points plus the ball is big in what turns out to be a close game.

Let's put this another way. Do you really think, with the score 19-17, that Coughlin goes for 2?

 

[Anonymous]

Let's put this another way. Do you really think, with the score 19-17, that Coughlin goes for 2?

Giants went for 2 with 21 points as in 21-17. Patriots let them walk it in for those 6 points. If settled for FG then Giants lead 18-17 with lots of opportunity for Patriots to get within FG range. The 2 points from the safety were crucial. Most of the time defensive scores are in close games.

 

[Ram Quixote]

Let's put this another way. Do you really think, with the score 19-17, that Coughlin goes for 2?

Giants went for 2 with 21 points as in 21-17. Patriots let them walk it in for those 6 points. If settled for FG then Giants lead 18-17 with lots of opportunity for Patriots to get within FG range. The 2 points from the safety were crucial. Most of the time defensive scores are in close games.

That didn't make any sense to me. 23-17 still doesn't guarantee a tie if the Pats get a TD.

You'll never convince me that one team will "let" another score a TD, especially when holding them to a FG is the goal. Quite simply, sans the safety, the Giants go up 20-17 after kicking the PAT.

You want to give too much credit to the Giants' D, when a couple of 4th quarter drops by Pats receivers were just as culpable for leaving the Patriots with the slim chance of a Hail Mary at the end.

 

[Anonymous]

Let's put this another way. Do you really think, with the score 19-17, that Coughlin goes for 2?

Giants went for 2 with 21 points as in 21-17. Patriots let them walk it in for those 6 points. If settled for FG then Giants lead 18-17 with lots of opportunity for Patriots to get within FG range. The 2 points from the safety were crucial. Most of the time defensive scores are in close games.

That didn't make any sense to me. 23-17 still doesn't guarantee a tie if the Pats get a TD.

You'll never convince me that one team will "let" another score a TD, especially when holding them to a FG is the goal. Quite simply, sans the safety, the Giants go up 20-17 after kicking the PAT.
.

The goal wasn't letting them waste time on a FG. The goal was to let them score as fast as possible to get the ball back with enough time to mount a drive. Even the Giants RB realized it at the last second scoring quite possibly the most pathetic TD in Super Bowl history. Saving as much time on the clock was the immediate goal for the Patriots.

 

[-X-]

The goal wasn't letting them waste time on a FG. The goal was to let them score as fast as possible to get the ball back with enough time to mount a drive. Even the Giants RB realized it at the last second scoring quite possibly the most pathetic TD in Super Bowl history. Saving as much time on the clock was the immediate goal for the Patriots.

I don't think he realized it at the last second. I think he was made aware of the decision to NOT score if the opportunity presented itself, and I think he was told that well in advance. It looked, to me, like he was fighting his instinct to score -- and lost that battle within. He was absolutely going to kneel down at the 1 yard line, but something in him was saying, "SCORE A TD IN THE SUPERBOWL DUMBASS!!!!!!!!" I'm sure I've seen that before (a team letting another team score so that they could have enough time to win with a TD of their own), but I'm not entirely sure when I saw that.

The rationale (again, to me) behind the Giants going for two after that was to make it a 6 point game and then hope to block the extra point attempt. That's really all they could hope for after they scored that TD. NOT scoring a TD there winds the clock all the way down and gives the Giants a chance to win it with a FG. Surely Belidick knew that and instructed his defense to half-ass their effort on a run up the middle.

Again -- All IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

The goal wasn't letting them waste time on a FG. The goal was to let them score as fast as possible to get the ball back with enough time to mount a drive. Even the Giants RB realized it at the last second scoring quite possibly the most pathetic TD in Super Bowl history. Saving as much time on the clock was the immediate goal for the Patriots.

I don't think he realized it at the last second. I think he was made aware of the decision to NOT score if the opportunity presented itself, and I think he was told that well in advance. It looked, to me, like he was fighting his instinct to score -- and lost that battle within. He was absolutely going to kneel down at the 1 yard line, but something in him was saying, "SCORE A TD IN THE SUPERBOWL DUMBASS!!!!!!!!" I'm sure I've seen that before (a team letting another team score so that they could have enough time to win with a TD of their own), but I'm not entirely sure when I saw that.

The rationale (again, to me) behind the Giants going for two after that was to make it a 6 point game and then hope to block the extra point attempt. That's really all they could hope for after they scored that TD. NOT scoring a TD there winds the clock all the way down and gives the Giants a chance to win it with a FG. Surely Belidick knew that and instructed his defense to half-ass their effort on a run up the middle.

Again -- All IMO.

OK I can buy the being told before....and the fighting the instinct to score......but his living down the video with his ass dragging himself in and the defenders refusing to move toward him......sad stuff for a highlight film. Good for him that it worked out anyway.

 

[JdashSTL]

Let's put this another way. Do you really think, with the score 19-17, that Coughlin goes for 2?

Giants went for 2 with 21 points as in 21-17. Patriots let them walk it in for those 6 points. If settled for FG then Giants lead 18-17 with lots of opportunity for Patriots to get within FG range. The 2 points from the safety were crucial. Most of the time defensive scores are in close games.

Thats what makes me think the Giants were playing for a TD the entire drive. It didnt look like a drive that points to them playing for the FG. Yes im sure it sounds much better to run the clock down as much as possible but even when they kick a FG the Pats only need a FG to win. Bradys has a great track record with leading teams down the field for those. I was more worried about them getting a TD in the 08 SB and I cant even remember how much time they had left. They had Moss! No deep threat on this Pats team.


If Bradshaw takes a knee at the 1 what do the Giants do on the next play? Belichick has to use another timeout. Theres still over a minute remaining.

 

[bluecoconuts]

If he took a knee, after the time out, and the next play, they would leave the Pats with roughly 20 seconds and 0 timeouts left to get within FG range (so basically a medium 15-20 yard pass to get to about the 50, and out of bounds with about 10 seconds left, and then another 15-20 yard pass to get out of bounds with 1-3 seconds left and a long kick).

Which is more than doable in the Pats offense.

Once they got the first down though, Pats defense knew that they had to save time, and let them score because that gave Brady a minute with a timeout to score a TD. If not for the receivers taking a page from the Rams offensive playbook it would have been easier. Then again if Welker makes that catch on the previous drive, and the Giants probably never even get a chance.

 

[-X-]

Ahmad Bradshaw was just on NFLN talking about his score/don't score moment in the Superbowl. So funny. He said Eli told him not to score, but once he got to that endzone line, his instincts got the better of him. He tried to take a knee, but his brain wasn't going to let it happen.

That Superbowl makes me happy. :cheese: