Fisher: Joyner to play slot, not much safety

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Yamahopper

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So you are basing your entire evaluation of a player who made 1st Team All conference honors in BOTH the SEC and the Big 12 in his time at Mizzou on ONE GAME?

As someone who has watched him play his entire career at Mizzou, this guy was one of the steals of the draft. If you weren't impressed with the OSU game, then I suggest you go find a tape of the Texas A&M game where he shut down the #7 overall pick in this years draft. Mike Evans , yeah, the 6'5 WR had an "impressive" 4 catches for a whopping 8 yards.

Gaines shut him down period. And that game was more indicative of what this guy brings week in week out.
Aren't you kind of basing yours on one game too? Just sayn'.
The biggest knock on Gaines is his inconsistency, not game to game but play to play. If the Rams coaches can fix that then the Rams got a great value.
 

rdlkgliders

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As long as the group as a whole is able to upgrade our secondary I am happy. Based on sheer numbers, talent and potential it looks like we will finally have some depth for the first time in a while. There will be growing pains, a one year deal on a good DB may have been and still be a nice addition. I see a lot of DB's on the practice squad with RB's. As we now set I think LB is our thinnest position and the WR's need to step up.
 

Alan

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CoachO with part of the story:
So you are basing your entire evaluation of a player who made 1st Team All conference honors in BOTH the SEC and the Big 12 in his time at Mizzou on ONE GAME?

As someone who has watched him play his entire career at Mizzou, this guy was one of the steals of the draft. If you weren't impressed with the OSU game, then I suggest you go find a tape of the Texas A&M game where he shut down the #7 overall pick in this years draft. Mike Evans , yeah, the 6'5 WR had an "impressive" 4 catches for a whopping 8 yards.

Gaines shut him down period. And that game was more indicative of what this guy brings week in week out.
A couple of things here.

You're correct that I'm basing my evaluation of a small amount of data. I only saw that game and the Texas A&M game you referred too. But here's the thing. Aren't you doing the same thing when you only point out one game where he played well? Are you really saying that he fell to the 6th round in a league that is starving for competent CBs because of some strange quirk of fate or the inability of all the GMs, scouts and HCs in the league to recognize his talents? Sure, that's happened before but come on now, how big of a chance is it that that's true?

More importantly though, I'm not basing my evaluation on a bad game by him and I'm pretty sure you're not basing your evaluation on him by only looking at his good Texas A&M game. My problem with what he brings to the table goes much deeper than him getting burned by a great WR in coverage. Every good/great WR burns good DBs or they wouldn't be great. Every great hitter goes 0-5 in some games. I'm not even saying he doesn't have good coverage skills like he demonstrated in the Texas game. In fact, I said as much in my post.

My problem with him is based on the limitations inherent with his size, speed and attitude. He can't get off blocks, he can't tackle and he's a hit or miss tackler who if, like jrry suggested and I agree with becomes a FS, makes everyone hold their breath if he's the last line of defense against an opposing WR taking it to the house. Frankly, the choice between having him or our punter Hekker attempting to make the TD saving tackle would be pretty close if the returner wasn't also a smurf.

He doesn't have good game speed in traffic because he has to try and run around everyone else on the field and his attitude towards tackling seems to be defeatist. I look at tapes of other munchkins like Joyner and I don't see that. Could that be one of the huge reasons why Joyner went in the 2nd round and Gaines went in the 6th?

He can't change his size or his speed in traffic but can he suddenly decide to try and tackle players? Maybe, I hope so but I have no valid reason to believe that except for the fact that he's a Ram and I'm rooting for him.
 

BonifayRam

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Sure hope someone beats Joyner for the nickel CB spot, don't like the thought of trading up in the second round for a nickel CB IMO.

Rams drafted another CB like Joyner back in 1999 named Dre' Bly. Bly like Joyner was not our original pick in the second round. Bly was selected @ #41 Joyner was also selected @#41. Bly was drafted to be the Nickle just like Joyner. Bly was 5-9 186 pounds Joyner is 5-8 184 pounds. Bly & Joyner's combine numbers are very close but Joyner has the much greater explosion & is just as fast & quick as Bly was.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60932&draftyear=1999&genpos=CB
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=109284&draftyear=2014&genpos=CB

During Dre' Bly's rookie season the Rams went to a super bowl win. Bly was our Nickle in both of our last two SB appearances . Of all of our selections in this draft I know Joyner the best and I simply think he IMO was a great #41 pick!
 

jjab360

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Aren't you kind of basing yours on one game too? Just sayn'.
The biggest knock on Gaines is his inconsistency, not game to game but play to play. If the Rams coaches can fix that then the Rams got a great value.
You forgot he mentioned the all Conference honors in both the SEC and the Big 12.
 

CoachO

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Aren't you kind of basing yours on one game too? Just sayn'.
The biggest knock on Gaines is his inconsistency, not game to game but play to play. If the Rams coaches can fix that then the Rams got a great value.

I guess you missed the part where I mentioned I have watched him throughout his entire Mizzou career. Any apparently, I'm not the only one who loves this pick. This is another one of those guys, as is Joyner, where the measurable don't tell the whole story. They both show up, and are just good football players.

And yes, I did mention the All conference selections in both conferences. so, again, somebody else thinks the guy can play a little bit.
 

CoachO

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A couple of things here.

You're correct that I'm basing my evaluation of a small amount of data. I only saw that game and the Texas A&M game you referred too. But here's the thing. Aren't you doing the same thing when you only point out one game where he played well? Are you really saying that he fell to the 6th round in a league that is starving for competent CBs because of some strange quirk of fate or the inability of all the GMs, scouts and HCs in the league to recognize his talents? Sure, that's happened before but come on now, how big of a chance is it that that's true?

More importantly though, I'm not basing my evaluation on a bad game by him and I'm pretty sure you're not basing your evaluation on him by only looking at his good Texas A&M game. My problem with what he brings to the table goes much deeper than him getting burned by a great WR in coverage. Every good/great WR burns good DBs or they wouldn't be great. Every great hitter goes 0-5 in some games. I'm not even saying he doesn't have good coverage skills like he demonstrated in the Texas game. In fact, I said as much in my post.

My problem with him is based on the limitations inherent with his size, speed and attitude. He can't get off blocks, he can't tackle and he's a hit or miss tackler who if, like jrry suggested and I agree with becomes a FS, makes everyone hold their breath if he's the last line of defense against an opposing WR taking it to the house. Frankly, the choice between having him or our punter Hekker attempting to make the TD saving tackle would be pretty close if the returner wasn't also a smurf.

He doesn't have good game speed in traffic because he has to try and run around everyone else on the field and his attitude towards tackling seems to be defeatist. I look at tapes of other munchkins like Joyner and I don't see that. Could that be one of the huge reasons why Joyner went in the 2nd round and Gaines went in the 6th?

He can't change his size or his speed in traffic but can he suddenly decide to try and tackle players? Maybe, I hope so but I have no valid reason to believe that except for the fact that he's a Ram and I'm rooting for him.

I'm just gonna leave it at this. We just disagree, and if you truly think he lacks the desire to tackle, then I'm not sure how much you have actually seen of him. That's the one thing he's not afraid to do. Like I said, above, both he and Joyner, are perfect examples of the measurable not being a true indicator of how a guy plays the game.

He has lined up against the top receivers every weekend, in two very elite conferences (Big XII for all its issues, could put some dynamic offenses on the field) and the SEC is what it is. And for you to refer to him as a smurf at 5'10 is nothing more than you going over the top to make a point.

E.J. Gaines

CB5'10"190Missouri5.2
Pick Analysis: "He showed good quickness and was very smooth in his (pro-day) workout, showing he has good hands. If he were 6-foot tall, he would be drafted a lot higher." -- Gil Brandt

Overview
Cornerback-running back who also played basketball and ran track as a Missouri prep. Played in 13 games as a true freshman in 2010 and recorded 26 tackles, one pass breakup and no interceptions as a special-teams player and reserve defensive back. Took over as a starting cornerback in 2011 and tallied 69 tackles, 16 pass breakups and two INTs with three tackles for loss and one forced fumble. The combined 18 passes defended set a Mizzou record and ranked fourth in the NCAA. Returned nine punts for 98 yards (10.9-yard average) and one touchdown, a 44-yard scamper against Western Illinois. In 2012, he totaled 74 tackles, 11 pass breakups and one INT with seven tackles for loss and two forced fumbles. Scored on a 13-yard fumble recovery against Kentucky. In 2013, recorded 75 tackles, three pass breakups and five INTs with four tackles for loss. In the SEC championship game against Auburn, he had an 11-yard fumble recovery for a TD. Missed two games with a quad strain. Team captain. Bench pressed at the combine but was medically excluded otherwise (pelvis).
Analysis
Strengths
Good muscularity and thin ankles. Fills aggressively and supports the run. Likes to hit. Plays with confidence and carries a swagger. Good attitude and football demeanor. Competes hard and brings energy to the field. Good eyes and route recognition. Has experience matching up with slot receivers in nickel coverage and has returned punts. Very good career production on the ball. Proven special teams coverage defender.
Weaknesses
Is short and short-armed. Plays a lot into the boundary. Shows some tightness in his hips. Average transitional quickness -- lacks ideal burst and acceleration to recover and close ground. Can do a better job disengaging from blocks. Most of interception production stemmed from tips and overthrown balls (not created). Average hands.
Draft Projection
Rounds 4-5
Bottom Line
Strong, physical zone corner with the toughness, awareness and football IQ to function highly in short spaces. A solid tackler, Gaines plays bigger than his size and takes a professional approach. Can make an immediate impact on special teams and work his way into a lineup.
 
Last edited:

A55VA6

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So basically our CB position looks like this:

Janoris Jenkins
Trumaine Johnson
LaMarcus Joyner
Brandon McGee
E.J. Gaines

I'm pretty happy with that if the rookies can come in and play good football. Looks like it could be an impressive group for years to come.
 

OC--LeftCoast

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Just curious, why is everyone ruling out McDonald at FS?
And if you are... and be honest now, are you the same folks who complained about his selection last year?

You guys do realize his best year at SC (2011) he played FS, just throwing it out there.
 

-X-

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Just curious, why is everyone ruling out McDonald at FS?
And if you are... and be honest now, are you the same folks who complained about his selection last year?

You guys do realize his best year at SC (2011) he played FS, just throwing it out there.
I made that suggestion earlier in the year, but was told he's just a box safety. While he may be more ideally suited for that, the Rams (Williams in particular) don't typically designate like that. There should be plenty of sub-packages employed where he can (and will) play both positions. As will the other safeties that make the cut.
 

duckhunter

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So basically our CB position looks like this:

Janoris Jenkins
Trumaine Johnson
LaMarcus Joyner
Brandon McGee
E.J. Gaines

I'm pretty happy with that if the rookies can come in and play good football. Looks like it could be an impressive group for years to come.

I see it that way also and have no gripes. They're young, so we'll take the good with bad.

Now at safety, I have no idea how that will shake out. At least we have real suspects with better qualifications than in the past.
 

scifiman

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Just curious, why is everyone ruling out McDonald at FS?
And if you are... and be honest now, are you the same folks who complained about his selection last year?

You guys do realize his best year at SC (2011) he played FS, just throwing it out there.
I agree. He has the speed and does not get beat deep many times. I think the rams are trying to get interchangeable guys which is smart. Whoever can cover and tackle and play the box too gets the jobs.
 

scifiman

Guest
I made that suggestion earlier in the year, but was told he's just a box safety. While he may be more ideally suited for that, the Rams (Williams in particular) don't typically designate like that. There should be plenty of sub-packages employed where he can (and will) play both positions. As will the other safeties that make the cut.
There will be a lot of corner and safety blitzes called where the guy is not going to cover at all anyway.
 

Sum1

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Sure hope someone beats Joyner for the nickel CB spot, don't like the thought of trading up in the second round for a nickel CB IMO.
You didn't like the pick so now you essentially hope he fails? Whuh?
 

A55VA6

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I see it that way also and have no gripes. They're young, so we'll take the good with bad.

Now at safety, I have no idea how that will shake out. At least we have real suspects with better qualifications than in the past.
Yeah, Safety I can say TJ McDonald is the SS, maybe McLeod starts at FS but it's really all up in the air at the Safety position. Alot of guys have a chance.
 

OC--LeftCoast

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I made that suggestion earlier in the year, but was told he's just a box safety. While he may be more ideally suited for that, the Rams (Williams in particular) don't typically designate like that. There should be plenty of sub-packages employed where he can (and will) play both positions. As will the other safeties that make the cut.


Well then, there you have it (agree 100%)

"So shall it be written, so shall it be done"
 

jjab360

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So basically our CB position looks like this:

Janoris Jenkins
Trumaine Johnson
LaMarcus Joyner
Brandon McGee
E.J. Gaines

I'm pretty happy with that if the rookies can come in and play good football. Looks like it could be an impressive group for years to come.
Greg Reid, too.
 

Yamahopper

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I guess you missed the part where I mentioned I have watched him throughout his entire Mizzou career. Any apparently, I'm not the only one who loves this pick. This is another one of those guys, as is Joyner, where the measurable don't tell the whole story. They both show up, and are just good football players.

And yes, I did mention the All conference selections in both conferences. so, again, somebody else thinks the guy can play a little bit.
Dude I was at that game . Evans was open quite a bit that night. It was the bad play by Manziel and pressure up front that had as much to do with Evans lack of production as Gaines did.
Gaines is very good corner. But he was drafted about where he should have. He's inconsistent. Good play, bad play. Better coaching and at this level should help him focus and clean up his technique. As i said.
Accolades in college does not always translate to the Nfl.
 

iced

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #39
Joyner does scare me a bit after watching some of his "highlights" - he does tend to look for the big hit, which judging by some of those will easily draw a flag in the nfl
 

-X-

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Joyner does scare me a bit after watching some of his "highlights" - he does tend to look for the big hit, which judging by some of those will easily draw a flag in the nfl
"We got this."

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