Fisher & Brian Schottenheimer

[Anonymous]

There has been word out there that one of Fisher's possible choices for an offensive coordinator is Brian Schottenheimer

If so it's more likely as of today cause Schottenheimer announced he's not returning to the Jets, where he had been the OC since 2006. So he's available.

Before becoming the OC in NY he was the qb coach in SD from 2002-2005. He had Brees in his 2nd year. The OC then was Cam Cameron, now the OC of the Ravens. Famously, Brees had a great year in 2004, with 65.5% completions, 27 TDs to 7 INTs, and a qb rating of 104.8.

As a qb coach he would have had Rivers under him in 2004-2005.

In contrast, the Jets offense was a mess this year and Schottenheimer got a lot of the blame but so did Sanchez. Some say Schottenheimer was hampered by Sanchez. Some say the opposite. Some cite the decline of the Jets OL too and the decline of the run game with it. (The Jets rushing game was ranked 4th in 2010, 22nd in 2011).

FWIW he was a Rams assistant coach in 1997.

Schottenheimer runs a version of the Coryell offense he learned under Cameron.

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

BTW his qb for 8 games in 2007 was Clemens.

In fact as both a qb coach and a coordinator, he has worked with Tony Banks (Washington 2001), Brees and Rivers and Flutie (Chargers 2002-2005), and Pennington and Clemens and Farvre and Sanchez (2006-2011).

 

[superfan24]

Not as worried with Bradford about learning his 3rd season in as many seasons in the NFL. It does suck, but he can do it with a full off-season of work.

 

[Stranger]

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

As some point in my life, I'd really like to see the offensive evolution tree showing how Gillman's offensive system spread through the football ranks.

Here's what I found in wikipedia 'bout Martz's system...

Mike Martz credits the offensive system as being originally catalyzed by Sid Gillman and then refined at San Diego State by Don Coryell, who later transmitted his system to the NFL. Martz learned the Coryell 3 digit system from offensive coordinator Ernie Zampese when both coached for the Rams under Chuck Knox from 1994-96.

<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Show_on_Turf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Show_on_Turf</a>

 

[Anonymous]

Awwww for Sammy's $70 million or so.....he will have to hit the books again. Poor baby.

 

[-X-]

Awwww for Sammy's $70 million or so.....he will have to hit the books again. Poor baby.

it doesn't matter if he's making 70 dollars a year. It's the third offense in as many years. Continuity is going to be a problem as long as that happens, so there needs to be a system in place, and preferably one that will remain a constant for years.

 

[ljramsfan]

There has been word out there that one of Fisher's possible choices for an offensive coordinator is Brian Schottenheimer

If so it's more likely as of today cause Schottenheimer announced he's not returning to the Jets, where he had been the OC since 2006. So he's available.

Before becoming the OC in NY he was the qb coach in SD from 2002-2005. He had Brees in his 2nd year. The OC then was Cam Cameron, now the OC of the Ravens. Famously, Brees had a great year in 2004, with 65.5% completions, 27 TDs to 7 INTs, and a qb rating of 104.8.

As a qb coach he would have had Rivers under him in 2004-2005.

In contrast, the Jets offense was a mess this year and Schottenheimer got a lot of the blame but so did Sanchez. Some say Schottenheimer was hampered by Sanchez. Some say the opposite. Some cite the decline of the Jets OL too and the decline of the run game with it. (The Jets rushing game was ranked 4th in 2010, 22nd in 2011).

FWIW he was a Rams assistant coach in 1997.

Schottenheimer runs a version of the Coryell offense he learned under Cameron.

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

BTW his qb for 8 games in 2007 was Clemens.

In fact as both a qb coach and a coordinator, he has worked with Tony Banks (Washington 2001), Brees and Rivers and Flutie (Chargers 2002-2005), and Pennington and Clemens and Farvre and Sanchez (2006-2011).

I think he would be a choice for what we know about Fisher.

 

[Anonymous]

Awwww for Sammy's $70 million or so.....he will have to hit the books again. Poor baby.

it doesn't matter if he's making 70 dollars a year. It's the third offense in as many years. Continuity is going to be a problem as long as that happens, so there needs to be a system in place, and preferably one that will remain a constant for years.

He's well compensated. He'll survive and thrive as long as the O line is fixed and a ROCK SOLID COMMITMENT is received from the OC to stay a few years. Besides if the HC is who we think it's going to be the $$$ for said contract will guarantee a window of 4 years.

What I think is overlooked is that IF the Rams land him he will bring immediate interest from FAs on both sides of the line. An instant infusion of credibility, something lacking in this prganization for far too long.

 

[Anonymous]

Awwww for Sammy's $70 million or so.....he will have to hit the books again. Poor baby.

it doesn't matter if he's making 70 dollars a year. It's the third offense in as many years. Continuity is going to be a problem as long as that happens, so there needs to be a system in place, and preferably one that will remain a constant for years.

He's well compensated. He'll survive and thrive as long as the O line is fixed and a ROCK SOLID COMMITMENT is received from the OC to stay a few years. Besides if the HC is who we think it's going to be the $$$ for said contract will guarantee a window of 4 years.

What I think is overlooked is that IF the Rams land him he will bring immediate interest from FAs on both sides of the line. An instant infusion of credibility, something lacking in this prganization for far too long.

Well, you may focus on his compensation, for reasons that are not clear, but that's not the issue.

The issue is a young qb who is struggling in the NFL and for good reason being set back by having to learn a 3rd system. And it's a problem. Just is. That's the NFL.

The sooner he gets a stable situation when it comes to that, then, the sooner the offense stablizes around him and the sooner the Rams start winning.

In his entire career at OU he never had to throw to a spot before the WR made his break and the entire Coryell offense is built around that. He struggled doing that last year. So he has to both improve as a player in the NFL and learn the kinds of things he has to learn to be a good NFL qb, stuff he is still working on, AND learn an entirely new offensive terminology.

I don't care what he's paid. I am not sure why anyone DOES. Being a young qb in the NFL is being a young qb in the NFL and a 3rd system change is not this easy thing.

 

[Stranger]

I think he would be a choice for what we know about Fisher.

Why?

Are Fish & Shott connected somehow?

 

[Anonymous]

Awwww for Sammy's $70 million or so.....he will have to hit the books again. Poor baby.

it doesn't matter if he's making 70 dollars a year. It's the third offense in as many years. Continuity is going to be a problem as long as that happens, so there needs to be a system in place, and preferably one that will remain a constant for years.

He's well compensated. He'll survive and thrive as long as the O line is fixed and a ROCK SOLID COMMITMENT is received from the OC to stay a few years. Besides if the HC is who we think it's going to be the $$$ for said contract will guarantee a window of 4 years.

What I think is overlooked is that IF the Rams land him he will bring immediate interest from FAs on both sides of the line. An instant infusion of credibility, something lacking in this prganization for far too long.

Well, you may focus on his compensation, for reasons that are not clear, but that's not the issue.

The issue is a young qb who is struggling in the NFL and for good reason being set back by having to learn a 3rd system. And it's a problem. Just is. That's the NFL.

The sooner he gets a stable situation when it comes to that, then, the sooner the offense stablizes around him and the sooner the Rams start winning.

In his entire career at OU he never had to throw to a spot before the WR made his break and the entire Coryell offense is built around that. He struggled doing that last year. So he has to both improve as a player in the NFL and learn the kinds of things he has to learn to be a good NFL qb, stuff he is still working on, AND learn an entirely new offensive terminology.

I don't care what he's paid. I am not sure why anyone DOES. Being a young qb in the NFL is being a young qb in the NFL and a 3rd system change is not this easy thing.

The $$$ are a large commitment. A HCs salary is the only avenue available to NFL teams to set apart with no strings attached. All successful teams will have to pay the coin or their HC walks. Rams if he is hired have bought his HC experience....ample, successful experience. He's still relatively young at 52 historically for the NFL. His track record demands the time, justifies the time.

As for Coryell's system you're confusing Martz's variant with that of Coryell himself. What the systems have in common is terminology. Difference is where Martz went hyperbolic in his timing for the ball and WR to independently arrive at the spot on the field at the same time. Coryell did not. Granted I'm most familiar with Coryell from his days in St. Louis and some while he was in SD.....but what I watched with Martz here was far and beyond anything that Coryell ever pursued anywhere. Martz's offense and his play calling was novel....he stems from the Coryell offensive branch but Martz is truly far out on a limb of said branch.

As for Sammy he'll be fine when the cast around him improves. A Martz system would be challenging for him but not a Coryell system. Sammy can and will do it when required. Martz was successful with far less talented QBs than Sammy so I don't see the Coryell issue as being a concern.

 

[ljramsfan]

I think he would be a choice for what we know about Fisher.

Why?

Are Fish & Shott connected somehow?

No, but I think if Fisher is indeed a "ground and pound" guy, he is a good choice.

 

[Stranger]

I think he would be a choice for what we know about Fisher.

Why?

Are Fish & Shott connected somehow?

No, but I think if Fisher is indeed a "ground and pound" guy, he is a good choice.

You know, I find it weird that Schottenheimer is a disciple of the Coryell offense, via Cameron, and yet he's run a "ground and pound". I just don't get it. Nothing about Coryell's offense was "ground and pound"... it was the GSOT before there was the GSOT.

Does anyone know how Cameron's (i.e. Schottenheimer's) offense is similar to Coryell"s? Is it just the zone blocking scheme, and/or the route combinations on passing downs, and/or the zone placement passes? I just don't get this offensive evolution.

 

[Anonymous]

I think he would be a choice for what we know about Fisher.

Why?

Are Fish & Shott connected somehow?

No, but I think if Fisher is indeed a "ground and pound" guy, he is a good choice.

You know, I find it weird that Schottenheimer is a disciple of the Coryell offense, via Cameron, and yet he's run a "ground and pound". I just don't get it. Nothing about Coryell's offense was "ground and pound"... it was the GSOT before there was the GSOT.

Does anyone know how Cameron's (i.e. Schottenheimer's) offense is similar to Coryell"s? Is it just the zone blocking scheme, and/or the route combinations on passing downs, and/or the zone placement passes? I just don't get this offensive evolution.

There have always been run-first versions of the Coryell offense. That's what the Aikman Cowboys were with Norv Turner as their coordinator and that's what the superbowl years Washington teams were under Gibbs.

 

[Yamahopper]

There has been word out there that one of Fisher's possible choices for an offensive coordinator is Brian Schottenheimer

If so it's more likely as of today cause Schottenheimer announced he's not returning to the Jets, where he had been the OC since 2006. So he's available.

Before becoming the OC in NY he was the qb coach in SD from 2002-2005. He had Brees in his 2nd year. The OC then was Cam Cameron, now the OC of the Ravens. Famously, Brees had a great year in 2004, with 65.5% completions, 27 TDs to 7 INTs, and a qb rating of 104.8.

As a qb coach he would have had Rivers under him in 2004-2005.

In contrast, the Jets offense was a mess this year and Schottenheimer got a lot of the blame but so did Sanchez. Some say Schottenheimer was hampered by Sanchez. Some say the opposite. Some cite the decline of the Jets OL too and the decline of the run game with it. (The Jets rushing game was ranked 4th in 2010, 22nd in 2011).

FWIW he was a Rams assistant coach in 1997.

Schottenheimer runs a version of the Coryell offense he learned under Cameron.

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

BTW his qb for 8 games in 2007 was Clemens.

In fact as both a qb coach and a coordinator, he has worked with Tony Banks (Washington 2001), Brees and Rivers and Flutie (Chargers 2002-2005), and Pennington and Clemens and Farvre and Sanchez (2006-2011).

Yeah that's what happen when the coaches get canned.....That's life.
Sure the Rams can bring a OC in off the Edwards tree, but I'm sure that new OC has bastardized it to fit his vision so in affect he would be still learning a new system.

So what do you want him to do?

He's not going to quit.
He's not going to be traded to Cle or NE.

So I say he will suck it up learn whatever system it is and come out ready to roll in 12 just because he wants to win.

 

[Anonymous]

So what do you want him to do?

He's not going to quit.
He's not going to be traded to Cle or NE.

So I say he will suck it up learn whatever system it is and come out ready to roll in 12 just because he wants to win.

EXACTLY!

 

[Anonymous]

There has been word out there that one of Fisher's possible choices for an offensive coordinator is Brian Schottenheimer

If so it's more likely as of today cause Schottenheimer announced he's not returning to the Jets, where he had been the OC since 2006. So he's available.

Before becoming the OC in NY he was the qb coach in SD from 2002-2005. He had Brees in his 2nd year. The OC then was Cam Cameron, now the OC of the Ravens. Famously, Brees had a great year in 2004, with 65.5% completions, 27 TDs to 7 INTs, and a qb rating of 104.8.

As a qb coach he would have had Rivers under him in 2004-2005.

In contrast, the Jets offense was a mess this year and Schottenheimer got a lot of the blame but so did Sanchez. Some say Schottenheimer was hampered by Sanchez. Some say the opposite. Some cite the decline of the Jets OL too and the decline of the run game with it. (The Jets rushing game was ranked 4th in 2010, 22nd in 2011).

FWIW he was a Rams assistant coach in 1997.

Schottenheimer runs a version of the Coryell offense he learned under Cameron.

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

BTW his qb for 8 games in 2007 was Clemens.

In fact as both a qb coach and a coordinator, he has worked with Tony Banks (Washington 2001), Brees and Rivers and Flutie (Chargers 2002-2005), and Pennington and Clemens and Farvre and Sanchez (2006-2011).

Yeah that's what happen when the coaches get canned.....That's life.
Sure the Rams can bring a OC in off the Edwards tree, but I'm sure that new OC has bastardized it to fit his vision so in affect he would be still learning a new system.

So what do you want him to do?

He's not going to quit.
He's not going to be traded to Cle or NE.

So I say he will suck it up learn whatever system it is and come out ready to roll in 12 just because he wants to win.

I didn't "want him" to "do" anything. I was just commenting on a fact.

I got some of the same kind of reaction from some people last time when I said he's going to struggle learning McD's system.

Noting a fact is just noting a fact. There's no controversy there.

And btw it's not just the qb it's the entire offense. Especially the receivers.

Frankly it will be nearly impossible to find either a new head coach or a new coordinator who is familiar with the system they used in 2011, though at least this time they have an off-season.

If anything my bet is the next guy will be more aware of how he should scale it back and adapt to the players on hand.

 

[-X-]

There has been word out there that one of Fisher's possible choices for an offensive coordinator is Brian Schottenheimer

If so it's more likely as of today cause Schottenheimer announced he's not returning to the Jets, where he had been the OC since 2006. So he's available.

Before becoming the OC in NY he was the qb coach in SD from 2002-2005. He had Brees in his 2nd year. The OC then was Cam Cameron, now the OC of the Ravens. Famously, Brees had a great year in 2004, with 65.5% completions, 27 TDs to 7 INTs, and a qb rating of 104.8.

As a qb coach he would have had Rivers under him in 2004-2005.

In contrast, the Jets offense was a mess this year and Schottenheimer got a lot of the blame but so did Sanchez. Some say Schottenheimer was hampered by Sanchez. Some say the opposite. Some cite the decline of the Jets OL too and the decline of the run game with it. (The Jets rushing game was ranked 4th in 2010, 22nd in 2011).

FWIW he was a Rams assistant coach in 1997.

Schottenheimer runs a version of the Coryell offense he learned under Cameron.

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

BTW his qb for 8 games in 2007 was Clemens.

In fact as both a qb coach and a coordinator, he has worked with Tony Banks (Washington 2001), Brees and Rivers and Flutie (Chargers 2002-2005), and Pennington and Clemens and Farvre and Sanchez (2006-2011).

Yeah that's what happen when the coaches get canned.....That's life.
Sure the Rams can bring a OC in off the Edwards tree, but I'm sure that new OC has bastardized it to fit his vision so in affect he would be still learning a new system.

So what do you want him to do?

He's not going to quit.
He's not going to be traded to Cle or NE.

So I say he will suck it up learn whatever system it is and come out ready to roll in 12 just because he wants to win.

I didn't want him to "do" anything. I was just commenting on a fact.

I got some of the same kind of reaction from some people last time when I said he's going to struggle learning McD's system.

Noting a fact is noting a fact.

And btw it's not just the qb it's the entire offense. Especially the receivers.

That's the oft-overlooked thing here. It's not the simple fact that Bradford has to "paper learn" a new system. He can do that. His intelligence and work ethic were a major factor in his being drafted by the Rams. It's the chemistry that has to be developed between him and the receivers. They ALL have to get on the same page with the playbook. It's also the offensive line, who under McDaniels system after a truncated off-season, looked entirely cluster fucked out there. So they too have to get on the same page with a new system. Just because the QB drives the offense, doesn't mean he can execute his own protection and catch his own passes.

And who, really, wants that to happen every year?

Anyone?

 

[Stranger]

I think he would be a choice for what we know about Fisher.

Why?

Are Fish & Shott connected somehow?

No, but I think if Fisher is indeed a "ground and pound" guy, he is a good choice.

You know, I find it weird that Schottenheimer is a disciple of the Coryell offense, via Cameron, and yet he's run a "ground and pound". I just don't get it. Nothing about Coryell's offense was "ground and pound"... it was the GSOT before there was the GSOT.

Does anyone know how Cameron's (i.e. Schottenheimer's) offense is similar to Coryell"s? Is it just the zone blocking scheme, and/or the route combinations on passing downs, and/or the zone placement passes? I just don't get this offensive evolution.

There have always been run-first versions of the Coryell offense. That's what the Aikman Cowboys were with Norv Turner as their coordinator and that's what the superbowl years Washington teams were under Gibbs.

So, if run-first is the major difference between Schottenheimer's and Coryell's offensive strategy, then what are the major similarities?

 

[Yamahopper]

There has been word out there that one of Fisher's possible choices for an offensive coordinator is Brian Schottenheimer

If so it's more likely as of today cause Schottenheimer announced he's not returning to the Jets, where he had been the OC since 2006. So he's available.

Before becoming the OC in NY he was the qb coach in SD from 2002-2005. He had Brees in his 2nd year. The OC then was Cam Cameron, now the OC of the Ravens. Famously, Brees had a great year in 2004, with 65.5% completions, 27 TDs to 7 INTs, and a qb rating of 104.8.

As a qb coach he would have had Rivers under him in 2004-2005.

In contrast, the Jets offense was a mess this year and Schottenheimer got a lot of the blame but so did Sanchez. Some say Schottenheimer was hampered by Sanchez. Some say the opposite. Some cite the decline of the Jets OL too and the decline of the run game with it. (The Jets rushing game was ranked 4th in 2010, 22nd in 2011).

FWIW he was a Rams assistant coach in 1997.

Schottenheimer runs a version of the Coryell offense he learned under Cameron.

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

BTW his qb for 8 games in 2007 was Clemens.

In fact as both a qb coach and a coordinator, he has worked with Tony Banks (Washington 2001), Brees and Rivers and Flutie (Chargers 2002-2005), and Pennington and Clemens and Farvre and Sanchez (2006-2011).

Yeah that's what happen when the coaches get canned.....That's life.
Sure the Rams can bring a OC in off the Edwards tree, but I'm sure that new OC has bastardized it to fit his vision so in affect he would be still learning a new system.

So what do you want him to do?

He's not going to quit.
He's not going to be traded to Cle or NE.

So I say he will suck it up learn whatever system it is and come out ready to roll in 12 just because he wants to win.

I didn't "want him" to "do" anything. I was just commenting on a fact.

I got some of the same kind of reaction from some people last time when I said he's going to struggle learning McD's system.

Noting a fact is just noting a fact. There's no controversy there.

And btw it's not just the qb it's the entire offense. Especially the receivers.

Frankly it will be nearly impossible to find either a new head coach or a new coordinator who is familiar with the system they used in 2011, though at least this time they have an off-season.

If anything my bet is the next guy will be more aware of how he should scale it back and adapt to the players on hand.

My comment was to the point that this is all a moot point.
For good or bad ownership decide to try to break the 15-65 cycle and move forward. So this is what happens. Chaos. Would things had been better next season if they have stayed the course..we will never know.

McD seemed like a good idea. I was for it too. Just didn't work out that way. And to each his own on whether it was talent or coaching or what ever reason they feel was the root cause. It's hard to score only 11 ppg when a back like Jax is on the field..

As for as the rest of the team it might be harder to adapt than the QB just for the fact it's the QB's brain that moves the chain more than his arm. Some other players aren't blessed that way.

To the WR's. If Lloyd is gone Danny A. if resigned is the only legit WR on the team. Salas has upside. But the rest are just guys that filled out the roster and more likely than not they will be gone. So who ever they bring in will be the type they want or in the case of vet., he may have exp. in what ever system they do run. Same with the oline.

Yeah this sucks.

 

[Yamahopper]

There has been word out there that one of Fisher's possible choices for an offensive coordinator is Brian Schottenheimer

If so it's more likely as of today cause Schottenheimer announced he's not returning to the Jets, where he had been the OC since 2006. So he's available.

Before becoming the OC in NY he was the qb coach in SD from 2002-2005. He had Brees in his 2nd year. The OC then was Cam Cameron, now the OC of the Ravens. Famously, Brees had a great year in 2004, with 65.5% completions, 27 TDs to 7 INTs, and a qb rating of 104.8.

As a qb coach he would have had Rivers under him in 2004-2005.

In contrast, the Jets offense was a mess this year and Schottenheimer got a lot of the blame but so did Sanchez. Some say Schottenheimer was hampered by Sanchez. Some say the opposite. Some cite the decline of the Jets OL too and the decline of the run game with it. (The Jets rushing game was ranked 4th in 2010, 22nd in 2011).

FWIW he was a Rams assistant coach in 1997.

Schottenheimer runs a version of the Coryell offense he learned under Cameron.

So IF Fisher comes to St.Louis and IF he brings Shottenheimer, this would be system #3 for Bradford and a return to the Coryell system for the Rams, though a more heavily run-oriented version influenced by Cameron.

BTW his qb for 8 games in 2007 was Clemens.

In fact as both a qb coach and a coordinator, he has worked with Tony Banks (Washington 2001), Brees and Rivers and Flutie (Chargers 2002-2005), and Pennington and Clemens and Farvre and Sanchez (2006-2011).

Yeah that's what happen when the coaches get canned.....That's life.
Sure the Rams can bring a OC in off the Edwards tree, but I'm sure that new OC has bastardized it to fit his vision so in affect he would be still learning a new system.

So what do you want him to do?

He's not going to quit.
He's not going to be traded to Cle or NE.

So I say he will suck it up learn whatever system it is and come out ready to roll in 12 just because he wants to win.

I didn't want him to "do" anything. I was just commenting on a fact.

I got some of the same kind of reaction from some people last time when I said he's going to struggle learning McD's system.

Noting a fact is noting a fact.

And btw it's not just the qb it's the entire offense. Especially the receivers.

That's the oft-overlooked thing here. It's not the simple fact that Bradford has to "paper learn" a new system. He can do that. His intelligence and work ethic were a major factor in his being drafted by the Rams. It's the chemistry that has to be developed between him and the receivers. They ALL have to get on the same page with the playbook. It's also the offensive line, who under McDaniels system after a truncated off-season, looked entirely cluster fucked out there. So they too have to get on the same page with a new system. Just because the QB drives the offense, doesn't mean he can execute his own protection and catch his own passes.

And who, really, wants that to happen every year?

Anyone?

I don't know much but I do know this for a fact..... Continuity comes only from winning.