Are you guys sold on our defense?

[albefree69]

DegenR(g)ambler neglecting to wear his welder goggles:

If you look up wiffle-waffle in the urban dictionary you will see a picture of me. I wouldn't advise doing that though.

i just googled that and you are right, i shouldnt have!

Yeah, you were warned, so I think I'm covered legally speaking. :lol:

 

[bluecoconuts]

On paper we have more talent, and less holes. Last year OLB and S were our biggest issues, and we're better there. If it translates to the field, nobody can say, but if I had to take a guess I would say we will improve.

 

[CoachO]

CoachO liking Langford better than I do:

Sort of. I'm still not comfortable with the performance of Langford and him playing next to Long is bad for Long and the Rams. I think the improvement we made at other positions like Safety and LB will improve our overall D.

Of all the things you could be concerned about regarding this defense, (youth at Safety, development of Ogletree, lack of depth at OLB), you focus on Langford?

What are you expectations of a "3 technique" DT? And while there will be times he lines up NEXT to Long, its not an every down thing.

By the very nature of the position, Langford is not going to be a "stat" guy. So if you are concerned because he doesn't make a load of plays behind the LOS, not going to garner a ton of sacks, then IMO, your concerns are unfounded. What he will do, is be strong at the point of attack, and be a compliment to Brockers.

They have put together a Dline loaded with playmakers. With Quinn, Long, Hayes, Sims, and Brockers.

If you ask me, the biggest guy to be "uncomfortable" with, it would be Robert Quinn. Unless and until he learns to be more than a "one trick pony", he will be a liability as an every down DE.

I would just refer you to Rambill's commentary on game 3 and I was saying this before I read that. Briefly, he wasn't stout against the run, didn't tackle well and achieved no push on his pass rush. What else is there besides looking good in the team photo? :lol:

My comment concerning him playing next to Long was based on this:
The opposing team is going to attack our weakest link in the run game and that's Langford. I believe that will force Long to be less aggressive because he'll have to help him out. In obvious passing situations, if they keep him in (which they probably won't because of his lack of push), they will be able to double team Long with impunity.

If he actually was stout against the run I would be thinking differently about this. I have yet to see a game where he's showed this. You probably still have all these games available to watch again and I invite you to go back and try and find a good game by him. I might have missed something and I sure would feel better if you could show me where I'm wrong.

Just my opinion of course but it's why I'm nervous about this D. Of course he didn't play well last year either and our D was still good which is why I still predict we'll be improved this year because of the other things I mentioned.

Two observations from your comments.....

First, with regards to Long "being less aggressive because "he'll have to help out"? huh? Isn't that HIS JOB? or are you of the belief that our DE's ONLY responsibility is to rush the passer?

That's been the Achilles heel of this defense against the running game. Our DE's INCLUDING Long, are less than stellar in setting and holding the edge against the running game. Maybe I am not understanding your point, but in ALL situations that are not obvious passing downs, the job of any Defensive Lineman is to have gap integrity. That includes the DEs.

Now, as far as what you see in Preseason games......

I think its been beaten to death, the extent of the "vanilla" scheme that was used throughout they entire preseason. No where is that any more apparent, than in the basic "schemes" from the front seven, much less the front four.

There was ZERO stunting.. And I am not talking about anything exotic, i.e. E/T twists, or over load blitzes. I'm talking about basic stunts like, slants, punching into gaps, all of which play to the strength of the D-Line by giving the guy across from you something to think about. They made a point of literally just lining up, and taking on the guy across from you.

You may under value the impact these sort of things have on a d-lineman, but I assure, when they play for keeps on Sept 8th, you will see a whole different look from all of these guys. Including Langford.

Go back to last season. By all accounts, Langford "struggled" early in the season. Playing without Brockers, learning a new system, and for all intent, learning a new position, it took him well into the season to show why they brought him here.

Once Brockers came back, and got healthy, Langford's play picked up accordingly. I see no reason to think he wont pick up where he left off.

 

[Mojo Ram]

I'm not concerned based upon the preseason we just finished. I am concerned about the youth factor behind the DLine and next to the CB's. Having Ray Ray seemingly emerge comes at a good time with Dunbar out 4 gms,in terms of depth. I expect that there will be speed bumps along the way w/the rooks starting,but its the same defense we saw last year with more talent,depth and speed. No reason whatsoever besides injuries that the D will be better than good this year

Ask me again about the ability to generate a pass rush with only our front four after the AZ game,because if we cant get to C.Palmer through that crappy OLine then yeah...something's very very wrong.

 

[albefree69]

CoachO replied:
First, with regards to Long "being less aggressive because "he'll have to help out"? huh? Isn't that HIS JOB? or are you of the belief that our DE's ONLY responsibility is to rush the passer?

Not at all, which is why I said "less" aggressive. I want him relying on/using his instincts and experience when responding to what is happening in a play. Having to worry about helping the guy next to him would interfere with that.

That's been the Achilles heel of this defense against the running game. Our DE's INCLUDING Long, are less than stellar in setting and holding the edge against the running game. Maybe I am not understanding your point, but in ALL situations that are not obvious passing downs, the job of any Defensive Lineman is to have gap integrity. That includes the DEs.

I agree with this and had an extended conversation with X about this very issue. Until X pointed out my error, I actually thought Long was worse against the run than Quinn was according to PFF. So you're preaching to the choir.

Now, as far as what you see in Preseason games......

Some stuff plus this:

Once Brockers came back, and got healthy, Langford's play picked up accordingly. I see no reason to think he wont pick up where he left off.

I'm aware that many are dismissing the poor play of our D-line starters by using the infamous "vanilla defense" rational. Coach Venturi talked extensively about this very thing and he validated my thoughts on this. Langford and others won few individual battles. As for Langford picking up where he left off, Brockers hasn't been injured this year and I've seen no evidence of this. I've seen nothing but poor play in all the games he's played in. Maybe he's been looking good in practice but it hasn't shown up on the real field IMO.

 

[CoachO]

CoachO replied:
First, with regards to Long "being less aggressive because "he'll have to help out"? huh? Isn't that HIS JOB? or are you of the belief that our DE's ONLY responsibility is to rush the passer?

Not at all, which is why I said "less" aggressive. I want him relying on/using his instincts and experience when responding to what is happening in a play. Having to worry about helping the guy next to him would interfere with that.

I think you are being sort of naïve if you truly believe that Long would ever "worry" about helping the guy next to him. And as I mentioned briefly in my earlier post, its NOT like the "3 tech" DT will ALWAYS be on the Left side. Langford, or Conrath, doesn't matter, if Chris Long is worrying about what those guys are doing, then we have bigger problems.

That's been the Achilles heel of this defense against the running game. Our DE's INCLUDING Long, are less than stellar in setting and holding the edge against the running game. Maybe I am not understanding your point, but in ALL situations that are not obvious passing downs, the job of any Defensive Lineman is to have gap integrity. That includes the DEs.

I agree with this and had an extended conversation with X about this very issue. Until X pointed out my error, I actually though Long was worse against the run than Quinn was according to PFF. So you're preaching to the choir.

Now, as far as what you see in Preseason games......

Some stuff plus this:

Once Brockers came back, and got healthy, Langford's play picked up accordingly. I see no reason to think he wont pick up where he left off.

I'm aware that many are dismissing the poor play of our D-line starters by using the infamous "vanilla defense" rational. Coach Venturi talked extensively about this very thing and he validated my thoughts on this. Langford and others won few individual battles. As for Langford picking up where he left off, Brockers hasn't been injured this year and I've seen no evidence of this. I've seen nothing but poor play in all the games he's played in. Maybe he's been looking good in practice but it hasn't shown up on the real field IMO.

IF you listen closely to Coach Venturi, he has all sorts of "old school" beliefs as to how things SHOULD be done throughout Preseason "games". Not saying his way is right or wrong, but it is obviously DIFFERENT than what Fisher believes. You said yourself, that Langford AND OTHERS didn't win many individual battles in these preseason games. So if that were to be accurate, and it is a widespread issue, why are you singling out Langford? Are we now supposed to believe that because Coach Venturi has questions marks about what he saw from the D-Line as a whole, that what is arguable the BEST UNIT on this team, if NOT the best front four in the league, cannot win individual battles?

 

[A55VA6]

I think our defense could be really really good. Even with the youth, we've seen what guys like Ogletree are capable of. I feel like we're better all around. Don't forget about Brandon McGee either, he might surprise some people.

 

[albefree69]

CoachO picking the right color:

CoachO replied:
First, with regards to Long "being less aggressive because "he'll have to help out"? huh? Isn't that HIS JOB? or are you of the belief that our DE's ONLY responsibility is to rush the passer?

Not at all, which is why I said "less" aggressive. I want him relying on/using his instincts and experience when responding to what is happening in a play. Having to worry about helping the guy next to him would interfere with that.

I think you are being sort of naïve if you truly believe that Long would ever "worry" about helping the guy next to him. And as I mentioned briefly in my earlier post, its NOT like the "3 tech" DT will ALWAYS be on the Left side. Langford, or Conrath, doesn't matter, if Chris Long is worrying about what those guys are doing, then we have bigger problems.

I only mentioned Long because Langford normally plays next to him. My point doesn't require the presence of Long. Whoever he is playing next to would suffer. Quinn has an advantage playing next to Brockers because they frequently need to double team him and this leaves Quinn with only one guy to beat. If only Long had the same advantage.

That's been the Achilles heel of this defense against the running game. Our DE's INCLUDING Long, are less than stellar in setting and holding the edge against the running game. Maybe I am not understanding your point, but in ALL situations that are not obvious passing downs, the job of any Defensive Lineman is to have gap integrity. That includes the DEs.

I agree with this and had an extended conversation with X about this very issue. Until X pointed out my error, I actually thought Long was worse against the run than Quinn was according to PFF. So you're preaching to the choir.

Now, as far as what you see in Preseason games......

Some stuff plus this:

Once Brockers came back, and got healthy, Langford's play picked up accordingly. I see no reason to think he wont pick up where he left off.

I'm aware that many are dismissing the poor play of our D-line starters by using the infamous "vanilla defense" rational. Coach Venturi talked extensively about this very thing and he validated my thoughts on this. Langford and others won few individual battles. As for Langford picking up where he left off, Brockers hasn't been injured this year and I've seen no evidence of this. I've seen nothing but poor play in all the games he's played in. Maybe he's been looking good in practice but it hasn't shown up on the real field IMO.

IF you listen closely to Coach Venturi, he has all sorts of "old school" beliefs as to how things SHOULD be done throughout Preseason "games". Not saying his way is right or wrong, but it is obviously DIFFERENT than what Fisher believes. You said yourself, that Langford AND OTHERS didn't win many individual battles in these preseason games. So if that were to be accurate, and it is a widespread issue, why are you singling out Langford? Are we now supposed to believe that because Coach Venturi has questions marks about what he saw from the D-Line as a whole, that what is arguable the BEST UNIT on this team, if NOT the best front four in the league, cannot win individual battles?

I hold all the D-line starters responsible for their IMO crappy play. I brought up Coach Venturi's comments (which mirrored mine) only because you brought up the vanilla defense stuff as an excuse. There's losing individual battles (like all the D-line did) and then there's getting manhandled in the battles. Langford's play was a step below the rest of the line. As for Coach Venturi having "old school" beliefs, so do I. I am older than dirt after all. :lol:

[/quote]

 

[CoachO]

CoachO picking the right color:

CoachO replied:
First, with regards to Long "being less aggressive because "he'll have to help out"? huh? Isn't that HIS JOB? or are you of the belief that our DE's ONLY responsibility is to rush the passer?

Not at all, which is why I said "less" aggressive. I want him relying on/using his instincts and experience when responding to what is happening in a play. Having to worry about helping the guy next to him would interfere with that.

I think you are being sort of naïve if you truly believe that Long would ever "worry" about helping the guy next to him. And as I mentioned briefly in my earlier post, its NOT like the "3 tech" DT will ALWAYS be on the Left side. Langford, or Conrath, doesn't matter, if Chris Long is worrying about what those guys are doing, then we have bigger problems.

I only mentioned Long because Langford norally play next to him. My point doesn't require the presence of Long. Whoever he is playing next to would suffer. Quinn has an advantage playing next to Brockers because they frequently need to double team him and this leaves Quinn with only one guy to beat. If only Long had the same advantage.

That's been the Achilles heel of this defense against the running game. Our DE's INCLUDING Long, are less than stellar in setting and holding the edge against the running game. Maybe I am not understanding your point, but in ALL situations that are not obvious passing downs, the job of any Defensive Lineman is to have gap integrity. That includes the DEs.

I agree with this and had an extended conversation with X about this very issue. Until X pointed out my error, I actually though Long was worse against the run than Quinn was according to PFF. So you're preaching to the choir.

Now, as far as what you see in Preseason games......

Some stuff plus this:

Once Brockers came back, and got healthy, Langford's play picked up accordingly. I see no reason to think he wont pick up where he left off.

I'm aware that many are dismissing the poor play of our D-line starters by using the infamous "vanilla defense" rational. Coach Venturi talked extensively about this very thing and he validated my thoughts on this. Langford and others won few individual battles. As for Langford picking up where he left off, Brockers hasn't been injured this year and I've seen no evidence of this. I've seen nothing but poor play in all the games he's played in. Maybe he's been looking good in practice but it hasn't shown up on the real field IMO.

IF you listen closely to Coach Venturi, he has all sorts of "old school" beliefs as to how things SHOULD be done throughout Preseason "games". Not saying his way is right or wrong, but it is obviously DIFFERENT than what Fisher believes. You said yourself, that Langford AND OTHERS didn't win many individual battles in these preseason games. So if that were to be accurate, and it is a widespread issue, why are you singling out Langford? Are we now supposed to believe that because Coach Venturi has questions marks about what he saw from the D-Line as a whole, that what is arguable the BEST UNIT on this team, if NOT the best front four in the league, cannot win individual battles?

I hold all the D-line starters responsible for their IMO crappy play. I brought up Coach Venturi's comments (which mirrored mine) only because you brought up the vanilla defense stuff as an excuse. There's losing individual battles (like all the D-line did) and then there's getting manhandled in the battles. Langford's play was a step below the rest of the line. As for Coach Venturi having "old school" beliefs, so do I. I am older than dirt after all. :lol:

[/quote]

Just seems to me, that you are putting WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on PRESEASON GAMES!

And you seem to be looking for things to be "concerned" about. If there is ONE AREA on this team we shouldn't be worried about its the ENTIRE Defensive line. Much like the Offensive line, they perform as a unit.

And you keep saying that the "3 tech" DT plays next to Long. You do get the concept of what a "3 tech" DT is right? He lines up on the STRONG side of the formation, on the outside shoulder of the Guard. While the "1 tech" (Brockers) lines up on the WEAK side shoulder of the Center. Those players switch sides of the def, formation based on the offensive strength. Obviously, when the offense changes the strength of the formation with motion, or shifts, the DT's usually slide. But to say that they are USUALLY on one side of the formation over another, really isn't the case.

His job is to contain the "B" gap, while the "1 tech" has got the "A" gap in most cases. Bottom line, they all have their "gap" responsibilities, and if Long OR Quinn get caught up worrying about the DT, then they will have no excuses.

 

[albefree69]

CoachO schooling me on 3 techniques:
Just seems to me, that you are putting WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on PRESEASON GAMES!

And you seem to be looking for things to be "concerned" about. If there is ONE AREA on this team we shouldn't be worried about its the ENTIRE Defensive line. Much like the Offensive line, they perform as a unit.

And you keep saying that the "3 tech" DT plays next to Long. You do get the concept of what a "3 tech" DT is right? He lines up on the STRONG side of the formation, on the outside shoulder of the Guard. While the "1 tech" (Brockers) lines up on the WEAK side shoulder of the Center. Those players switch sides of the def, formation based on the offensive strength. Obviously, when the offense changes the strength of the formation with motion, or shifts, the DT's usually slide. But to say that they are USUALLY on one side of the formation over another, really isn't the case.

His job is to contain the "B" gap, while the "1 tech" has got the "A" gap in most cases. Bottom line, they all have their "gap" responsibilities, and if Long OR Quinn get caught up worrying about the DT, then they will have no excuses.

Did you read the title of this thread? I'm not "looking" for anything just answering that question. As for putting too much emphasis on the preseason, again I have to go back to the title of the thread. The question wasn't "Do you like last years D?". That being the case, the only way to answer his question is by evaluating what has changed from last year. All we have is OTAs, TC and the preseason games. What data should I use to answer it? Can't seem to find my ouija board, :lol:

Thanks for explaining what a "3 technique" DT is because I didn't know that answer. I've been told it before and it's always interesting but because it doesn't ever play a part in forming my opinions I soon forget it. I also don't know what a 1 or 5 technique is either. My technical knowledge of football is by far inferior to yours. I'm just a fan who has been watching the game for 55 years. I've picked up a few things along the way but I'll never be in your league. Or many of the rest of you. I do consider myself to be a very logical person and I combine that with what knowledge I do have and opinions of knowledgeable people like yourself to form my opinions. Knowing exactly what a 3 tech is is immaterial to what I'm saying. But thanks for the explanation and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that.

I stand by what my eyes saw and what I've gleaned from others. You disagree. That's fine. :bg:

I enjoyed the conversation BTW.

 

[nighttrain]

Im in desperate need of some reassurance. As most of you may know, I am new to this team or should I say new to calling myself a fan of this team. Is our defense as good as it was last year or even better? Where will we finish the year in defensive standings?

Defensively, and i know it was only the preseason where our starters didnt play complete games etc for some reason I am somewhat concerned. Ive read several different threads here that I am not fully understanding or grasping. There seems to be some who think we are as good or better than last year and some that think we arent. thoughts please?

On paper I think we are better on D.

It depends on the maturation of the young guys. Key guys are Brockers, Quinn, and Jenkins. If Brockers plays like I believe he is capable of playing this D can be stellar.

very good last season and no reason to think they won't improve, least of our worries ..................
train

 

[CoachO]

CoachO schooling me on 3 techniques:
Just seems to me, that you are putting WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on PRESEASON GAMES!

And you seem to be looking for things to be "concerned" about. If there is ONE AREA on this team we shouldn't be worried about its the ENTIRE Defensive line. Much like the Offensive line, they perform as a unit.

And you keep saying that the "3 tech" DT plays next to Long. You do get the concept of what a "3 tech" DT is right? He lines up on the STRONG side of the formation, on the outside shoulder of the Guard. While the "1 tech" (Brockers) lines up on the WEAK side shoulder of the Center. Those players switch sides of the def, formation based on the offensive strength. Obviously, when the offense changes the strength of the formation with motion, or shifts, the DT's usually slide. But to say that they are USUALLY on one side of the formation over another, really isn't the case.

His job is to contain the "B" gap, while the "1 tech" has got the "A" gap in most cases. Bottom line, they all have their "gap" responsibilities, and if Long OR Quinn get caught up worrying about the DT, then they will have no excuses.

Did you read the title of this thread? I'm not "looking" for anything just answering that question. As for putting too much emphasis on the preseason, again I have to go back to the title of the thread. The question wasn't "Do you like last years D?". That being the case, the only way to answer his question is by evaluating what has changed from last year. All we have is OTAs, TC and the preseason games. What data should I use to answer it? Can't seem to find my ouija board, :lol:

Thanks for explaining what a "3 technique" DT is because I didn't know that answer. I've been told it before and it's always interesting but because it doesn't ever play a part in forming my opinions I soon forget it. I also don't know what a 1 or 5 technique is either. My technical knowledge of football is by far inferior to yours. I'm just a fan who has been watching the game for 55 years. I've picked up a few things along the way but I'll never be in your league. Or many of the rest of you. I do consider myself to be a very logical person and I combine that with what knowledge I do have and opinions of knowledgeable people like you to form my opinions. Knowing exactly what a 3 tech is immaterial to what I'm saying. But thanks for the explanation and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that.

I stand by what my eyes saw and what I've gleaned from others. You disagree. That's fine. :bg:

I agree, the 3- tech really doesn't have much to do with the point, other than I was trying to clarify why Langford/Conrath aren't necessarily going to line up next to Long any more than they will be on the other side of the formation. in the grand scheme of things, I realize its not all the pertinent.

And trust me, just because I may have some knowledge of the "X & O" part of the game, to a point,, lol I am just voicing my opinion and observation from what I have seen at camp, as well as in the "games".


Its all good. I really wasn't trying to be "the smartest guy in the room" and after reading back my post, it could come across that way. That's really not my style.

 

[albefree69]

CoachO being modest:
And trust me, just because I may have some knowledge of the "X & O" part of the game, to a point,, lol I am just voicing my opinion and observation from what I have seen at camp, as well as in the "games".

Let's not get too carried away here. I rely heavily on posters like you, DR RAM, X, Bonifay Ram and others to help shape and/or change my opinions. I relied heavily on yours and Jim's observations of the practices in my player evaluations. They were very much appreciated. It's also very enjoyable discussing this stuff with you.

 

[CoachO]

CoachO being modest:
And trust me, just because I may have some knowledge of the "X & O" part of the game, to a point,, lol I am just voicing my opinion and observation from what I have seen at camp, as well as in the "games".

Let's not get too carried away here. I rely heavily on posters like you, DR RAM, X, Bonifay Ram and others to help shape and/or change my opinions. I relied heavily on yours and Jim's observations of the practices in my player evaluations. They were very much appreciated. It's also very enjoyable discussing this stuff with you.

Kinda the whole point of the forum. Just don't want to come across the wrong way.

 

[DegenR(g)ambler]

CoachO being modest:
And trust me, just because I may have some knowledge of the "X & O" part of the game, to a point,, lol I am just voicing my opinion and observation from what I have seen at camp, as well as in the "games".

Let's not get too carried away here. I rely heavily on posters like you, DR RAM, X, Bonifay Ram and others to help shape and/or change my opinions. I relied heavily on yours and Jim's observations of the practices in my player evaluations. They were very much appreciated. It's also very enjoyable discussing this stuff with you.

Kinda the whole point of the forum. Just don't want to come across the wrong way.

great convo, esp you two! thanks!

i'll just add that i know zilch abt the x & o's of football, hell i rarely watch sports, but i think a lot of what is going on can be determined by your first impression, or what an individual "sees" with his/her own two eyes. example, ray ray flying all over the field during the rams fest or the first preseason game, whos getting the push at the line of scrimmage, which receiver is faster or has better hands etc. thanks again for everyones reply.

 

[jimitroutboy]

In camp and in game it was my impression that they showed way more of the offense than they ever did the defense. I don't think anyone has any earthly idea of what the defense is going to look like come the opening game.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

CoachO being modest:
And trust me, just because I may have some knowledge of the "X & O" part of the game, to a point,, lol I am just voicing my opinion and observation from what I have seen at camp, as well as in the "games".

Let's not get too carried away here. I rely heavily on posters like you, DR RAM, X, Bonifay Ram and others to help shape and/or change my opinions. I relied heavily on yours and Jim's observations of the practices in my player evaluations. They were very much appreciated. It's also very enjoyable discussing this stuff with you.

Kinda the whole point of the forum. Just don't want to come across the wrong way.

great convo, esp you two! thanks!

i'll just add that i know zilch abt the x & o's of football, hell i rarely watch sports, but i think a lot of what is going on can be determined by your first impression, or what an individual "sees" with his/her own two eyes. example, ray ray flying all over the field during the rams fest or the first preseason game, whos getting the push at the line of scrimmage, which receiver is faster or has better hands etc. thanks again for everyones reply.

Yes it was, tho I tend to see things thru Alan's "older than dirt" eyes, CoachO's points are well taken.

 

[albefree69]

OC--LeftCoast solving the mystery:
Yes it was, tho I tend to see things thru Alan's "older than dirt" eyes

Damn, no wonder I have double vision. :lol: