An analysis of the quarterback (not insane version)

[fearsomefour]

I THINK it's fair to say that if everything goes how it should (OL, WR's and entire offense) play up to the talent level they have and Sam DOESN'T make some decent strides this year, we have a problem.
I personally think this year is Sam's big coming out party.

I dont know about that....at least early on. We have a staff now that at least gets the concept of putting players in spots to succeed, creating mismatches. But, there may very well be growing pains. Espcially with a rookie WR making reads at the line and being on the same page as the QB. I expect more explosive plays this year everywhere on offense, including the RBs. But, I dont expect the Rams to come out week one and start hanging 38 points on everyone. While it does make sense that the guys coming into their second year (Givens, Quick, Pead, Richardson) stand to have an easier go of it no one knows the chemistry that will be there with Bradford and Cook or Austin. Not being negative. Just saying it will take some time this season maybe.

"Well, in all fairness, I didn't say anything about them coming out hanging 38 points on anyone. Out of the gate or otherwise. What I said was if he doesn't make decent strides this year I think we will have a problem."

The 38 points per game was my own mind wandering. I agree in total that I would expect and hope to see Bradford make strides this year with many of the things mentioned in your post. We are in agreement here. Bradford has all of the physcial talent in the world, he just needs the mental processing part of the game to catch up. Having WRs that can catch a 6 yard route and turn it into a 25+ yard play can do a lot for a QB. Shoud be an exciting and progress year for Sam.

 

[CoachO]

The thing about sacks that you have to consider IMO, is the down and distance when they happen. To "take" a sack on 3rd down isn't the worst thing that can happen, especially if it's in 3rd and long situation. You have to hold the ball longer to let play develop and you really have nothing to lose trying to make a play.

Now, if you are in FG range, then none of the above applies. Also, if on 1st of 2nd down, then hitting your check down or simply throwing the ball away makes a lot more sense. If you look at the majority of his sacks, on early downs, my guess would be that the pressure comes from up the middle, and he had no other option. Too many of those sacks to count.

Another thing he seems to be criticized on unfairly, is the number of "inaccurate" throws along the sidelines. Specifically on the deep fade routes. In many instances, I think he has been coached to "throw it away". Not always, I will be the first to admit, but all too often, fans think every throw that leaves his hand is supposed to be completed, when in, fact he intentionally launches it out of bounds.

Especially with Fishers MO of limiting turnovers, in many cases he just is being coached NOT to force throws. Look at the difference in the 4th qtr. When he has to make plays, he makes throws he doesn't even attempt earlier in the game. So its proof to me that he CAN make them when he has to.

 

[albefree69]

CoachO seeing it differently:
Another thing he seems to be criticized on unfairly, is the number of "inaccurate" throws along the sidelines. Specifically on the deep fade routes. In many instances, I think he has been coached to "throw it away". Not always, I will be the first to admit, but all too often, fans think every throw that leaves his hand is supposed to be completed, when in, fact he intentionally launches it out of bounds.

I agree with most of what you said that I'm not quoting. I see the deep fade routes and for that matter, his screen passes as a major flaw in his game.

I've seen him try and throw it through the back of the defender on a corner of the end zone fade route. Even when he throws it long it has virtually no arc.

He rarely has any loft on the ball on screen passes except when he's throwing almost parallel to the LOS. Most of the time it looks like he's trying to throw it in between the bodies of the incoming rushers. I see nothing unfair about that criticism at all. If anything, it's understated IMO.

Of course that is relying on my frequently faulty vision. As X has done extensive editing of the game film to come up with the complete TD video clip I'd be very interested in what he saw concerning this.

What say you X?

 

[CoachO]

not sure about not having any loft on "Screen passes"... you don't want to loft the ball on a screen pass. It gives the defense more time to adjust, and less time for your RB to react.

now, if you are talking about a pure swing pass, where you need to throw it over a LB who may be trailing the RB, that's a different scenario. But they just don't throw enough of those, IMO, to say one way or another.

And I disagree that he struggles with the deep fade. That pass is one of the toughest passes to complete, especially if the WR doesn't give the QB and room on the sideline. And on the endzone fade, again, consider who he has been throwing to. All to often since he has been here, throwing that route to guys who are 6'1 or less. It not like he's had someone who can go up and win a jump ball in the back corner of the endzone. That SHOULD change this year.

Look, I'm not saying there aren't part of his game he needs to get better at. But I also see things a little differently than some. I watch every practice throughout training camp, and see how he is heads and shoulders better than any of the other QBs they have had here. (Warner doesn't count among those). He can make every throw.

 

[-X-]

not sure about not having any loft on "Screen passes"... you don't want to loft the ball on a screen pass. It gives the defense more time to adjust, and less time for your RB to react.

now, if you are talking about a pure swing pass, where you need to throw it over a LB who may be trailing the RB, that's a different scenario. But they just don't throw enough of those, IMO, to say one way or another.

And I disagree that he struggles with the deep fade. That pass is one of the toughest passes to complete, especially if the WR doesn't give the QB and room on the sideline. And on the endzone fade, again, consider who he has been throwing to. All to often since he has been here, throwing that route to guys who are 6'1 or less. It not like he's had someone who can go up and win a jump ball in the back corner of the endzone. That SHOULD change this year.

Look, I'm not saying there aren't part of his game he needs to get better at. But I also see things a little differently than some. I watch every practice throughout training camp, and see how he is heads and shoulders better than any of the other QBs they have had here. (Warner doesn't count among those). He can make every throw.

Looking forward to your reports again this year, Coach.
That was good stuff last time.

 

[CoachO]

not sure about not having any loft on "Screen passes"... you don't want to loft the ball on a screen pass. It gives the defense more time to adjust, and less time for your RB to react.

now, if you are talking about a pure swing pass, where you need to throw it over a LB who may be trailing the RB, that's a different scenario. But they just don't throw enough of those, IMO, to say one way or another.

And I disagree that he struggles with the deep fade. That pass is one of the toughest passes to complete, especially if the WR doesn't give the QB and room on the sideline. And on the endzone fade, again, consider who he has been throwing to. All to often since he has been here, throwing that route to guys who are 6'1 or less. It not like he's had someone who can go up and win a jump ball in the back corner of the endzone. That SHOULD change this year.

Look, I'm not saying there aren't part of his game he needs to get better at. But I also see things a little differently than some. I watch every practice throughout training camp, and see how he is heads and shoulders better than any of the other QBs they have had here. (Warner doesn't count among those). He can make every throw.

Looking forward to your reports again this year, Coach.
That was good stuff last time.

Thanks!!! Can't wait for camp. More so this year than any.

 

[albefree69]

CoachO replied:
not sure about not having any loft on "Screen passes"... you don't want to loft the ball on a screen pass. It gives the defense more time to adjust, and less time for your RB to react.

now, if you are talking about a pure swing pass, where you need to throw it over a LB who may be trailing the RB, that's a different scenario. But they just don't throw enough of those, IMO, to say one way or another.

And I disagree that he struggles with the deep fade. That pass is one of the toughest passes to complete, especially if the WR doesn't give the QB and room on the sideline. And on the endzone fade, again, consider who he has been throwing to. All to often since he has been here, throwing that route to guys who are 6'1 or less. It not like he's had someone who can go up and win a jump ball in the back corner of the endzone. That SHOULD change this year.

Look, I'm not saying there aren't part of his game he needs to get better at. But I also see things a little differently than some. I watch every practice throughout training camp, and see how he is heads and shoulders better than any of the other QBs they have had here. (Warner doesn't count among those). He can make every throw.

Throwing to short receiver's on corner fade routes would require more arc rather than less.

We must have a different view of what a screen pass is. In my version, you throw the ball over the onrushing linemen that were purposely let through. That would require arc and by arc I don't mean lobbing the ball over them which as you said would allow the D to converge on the receiver.

Be that as it may, like X mentioned, I too enjoyed your breakdowns of the games last year. Only got to read 4 or 5 of them but they were all very enjoyable. I hope to read all of them this year now that we're both posting at the same place. :bg:

 

[brokeu91]

I've also thought that Sam has been too cautious... interesting point that Spags may be to blame for that. I should add that his cautious play is also appreciated when the turnovers are low.


I think SJ's departure will result in Sam asserting himself as the outright leader of the offense. He may have held back in this department in the past because of SJ... I wish he hadn't , but I can understand it.... still don't agree with it though.


One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is Sam's high level of superstition. I cannot help but wonder if this might be hurting him in some weird way at times. Many athletes are superstitious , but I get the impression that Sam might be a little extreme with it.

Yeah, I've wondered about that too. I don't think he has OCD (at least not based on what I've read), but I wonder if it's possible. Seriously, if he's thinking in the back of his mind about something superstitious it will effect his play. No doubt about it.

 

[CGI_Ram]

I haven't read all the responses here yet; but thought I should chime in with an un-influenced opinion first;

First, I don't think too many QB's would have performed better than Sam his previous seasons under the many circumstances we are all familiar with. I get annoyed when that is downplayed.

He has the physical tools and mental accumen to be a top QB in this league. He's a solid student despite the money thrown his way; is working hard to improve himself and his teammates.

What he needs to do better; using his body and head-position to set-up plays. Some may critique he looks down his receiver... and I see that too sometimes. Last year was better, but still more work to do.

Use the pump fake more.

He improved last year; making a quicker decision to tuck the ball and run when the play isn't there. Keep doing this.

I see some opportunity to improve his touch passes too. This could get worked on nicely now that Austin is aboard.

Bottom line; I am glad we are not one of those teams continuously searching for a QB. Sam is our man for the next 10 years!

 

[moklerman]

I'm not worried about Bradford or what he can do. His problems have been all about the things everyone's already mentioned. From scheme to continuity to health to personnel, etc.

But Jaworski's recent take on Bradford(among all 32 QB's he's reviewing) showed a very striking difference in Bradford's numbers when he's in shotgun vs. when he's not and to me, that means he's been in the wrong offense.

It seems that the Rams are finally addressing the issue and putting him in a situation that will play to his strengths. Granted, the personnel may have restricted how quickly Snisher could put Bradford in a situation where he will flourish but it's good news to me that since they are all in with Bradford that they are finally building an offense around him.

Rather than shoe-horning him into a system that a) isn't suited to him and b) isn't particularly effective anyway.

 

[-X-]

I'm not worried about Bradford or what he can do. His problems have been all about the things everyone's already mentioned. From scheme to continuity to health to personnel, etc.

But Jaworski's recent take on Bradford(among all 32 QB's he's reviewing) showed a very striking difference in Bradford's numbers when he's in shotgun vs. when he's not and to me, that means he's been in the wrong offense.

It seems that the Rams are finally addressing the issue and putting him in a situation that will play to his strengths. Granted, the personnel may have restricted how quickly Snisher could put Bradford in a situation where he will flourish but it's good news to me that since they are all in with Bradford that they are finally building an offense around him.

Rather than shoe-horning him into a system that a) isn't suited to him and b) isn't particularly effective anyway.

Agreed. I kinda wish he was turned loose more in 2010 instead of pigeon-holed into that horrible offensive system, but I suppose receiver injuries had as much to do with scaling it back as did the design itself. Anyway, it is what it is, and it appears they're starting to really tailor the offense to his strengths. I expect him to take off this year if the rooks can get their heads around the playbook.

Good to see you back, Mokler. Been a while.

 

[CoachO]

I'm not worried about Bradford or what he can do. His problems have been all about the things everyone's already mentioned. From scheme to continuity to health to personnel, etc.

But Jaworski's recent take on Bradford(among all 32 QB's he's reviewing) showed a very striking difference in Bradford's numbers when he's in shotgun vs. when he's not and to me, that means he's been in the wrong offense.
It seems that the Rams are finally addressing the issue and putting him in a situation that will play to his strengths. Granted, the personnel may have restricted how quickly Snisher could put Bradford in a situation where he will flourish but it's good news to me that since they are all in with Bradford that they are finally building an offense around him.

Rather than shoe-horning him into a system that a) isn't suited to him and b) isn't particularly effective anyway.

I think too much can be read into that "stat". In most cases, when he is in shotgun, he is in a down and distance that will lead to him making plays. In earlier downs, when under center, there is so many other factors that come into play.

The system is geared to ball security, with a focus on not turning it over. As I stated in a previous post in this thread, he is "COACHED" to throw the ball away on early downs, and most of the time, in 3rd down situations, will try to make a play. Also, if you look at his 4th qtr. numbers, they are substantially better than at other times of the game. This, also tends to support the "shotgun" vs. "under center" numbers being skewed.

To try to come to any REAL conclusions, simply looking at the numbers can be misleading. Like all stats, you can look at the numbers anyway you want. But understanding the total picture behind the reason for the numbers, is what really determines the validity of those numbers.

 

[-X-]

I think too much can be read into that "stat". In most cases, when he is in shotgun, he is in a down and distance that will lead to him making plays. In earlier downs, when under center, there is so many other factors that come into play.

That's a good point. The percentage of snaps he's under center vs the percentage of snaps he's in the gun would shape that statistic. However, I think he would be better suited in that position - like Jim Kelly. That seems to be where/when he makes the better reads and when he's the most comfortable as well.

 

[CoachO]

I think too much can be read into that "stat". In most cases, when he is in shotgun, he is in a down and distance that will lead to him making plays. In earlier downs, when under center, there is so many other factors that come into play.

That's a good point. The percentage of snaps he's under center vs the percentage of snaps he's in the gun would shape that statistic. However, I think he would be better suited in that position - like Jim Kelly. That seems to be where/when he makes the better reads and when he's the most comfortable as well.

Well, to that point, then it becomes a fundamental issue of philosophy. I still am not convinced that they are gonna just spread things out and become that "chuck and duck" kinda of offense. I have maintained that they will still be a "run the ball and throw off of play action" type of team. I just don't see them becoming a team that will throw the ball 40+ times a game like a lot of the "Madden" types in here.

I think the biggest adjustment they make in tis offense is in the type of running game they go to. They just don't have the personnel (eg. Jackson) to use the power "straight ahead" type of attack. I envision them going to a more "stretch - read" running game, utilizing the speed getting to the edge with Pead/Richardson.

Everyone is so enamored with what Wilson, Kaepernick, and Griffin III accomplished, but the seem to over look that they were rank in the BOTTOM 5 in attempts, and MOST of their success in the passing game came in the play action game.

I am looking forward to seeing how they approach things when they get into training camp. But IMO, the system might now look all that different, in terms of philosophy. But by having BETTER players in that system, they will make it much more productive.

 

[moklerman]

I think too much can be read into that "stat". In most cases, when he is in shotgun, he is in a down and distance that will lead to him making plays. In earlier downs, when under center, there is so many other factors that come into play.

That's a good point. The percentage of snaps he's under center vs the percentage of snaps he's in the gun would shape that statistic. However, I think he would be better suited in that position - like Jim Kelly. That seems to be where/when he makes the better reads and when he's the most comfortable as well.

I agree that the stat's have to be viewed in the correct light but in today's NFL, guys like Brady, Manning...any number of QB's, pretty much live out of the shotgun and I think it's safe to say, Bradford has not been given that opportunity.

My point is, this isn't 20 years ago where the shotgun was a situational formation used mainly in 3rd and long. Spags/Shurmur decided to primarily put Bradford under center and with SJ, Bradford has generally been in a certain type of offense that is run-based. I think McDaniels probably had the right idea about a philosophy but everything else he did was such a hot mess that it's hard to give him any credit.

Handing off to SJ for 3 yards and a cloud of dust as a general approach is what Bradford's been given so far. Now, presumably, we'll get to see what Bradford can do when he gets to have something more similar to what Brees, Brady, etc. get to use all the time.

Which, speaking of situations, Bradford has had to produce much of what he's done in higher pressure situations. Run, run, 3rd & long is tough to face ALLLLLL the time. Not to mention the utter lack of a running game in the red zone.

 

[albefree69]

moklerman advancing the ball in the red zone:

CoachO refining his position on an earlier comment:
"I think too much can be read into that "stat". In most cases, when he is in shotgun, he is in a down and distance that will lead to him making plays. In earlier downs, when under center, there is so many other factors that come into play."

That's a good point. The percentage of snaps he's under center vs the percentage of snaps he's in the gun would shape that statistic. However, I think he would be better suited in that position - like Jim Kelly. That seems to be where/when he makes the better reads and when he's the most comfortable as well.

I agree that the stat's have to be viewed in the correct light but in today's NFL, guys like Brady, Manning...any number of QB's, pretty much live out of the shotgun and I think it's safe to say, Bradford has not been given that opportunity.

My point is, this isn't 20 years ago where the shotgun was a situational formation used mainly in 3rd and long. Spags/Shurmur decided to primarily put Bradford under center and with SJ, Bradford has generally been in a certain type of offense that is run-based. I think McDaniels probably had the right idea about a system but everything else he did was such a hot mess that it's hard to give him any credit.

Handing off to SJ for 3 yards and a cloud of dust as a general approach is what Bradford's been given so far. Now, presumably, we'll get to see what Bradford can do when he gets to have something more similar to what Brees, Brady, etc. get to use all the time.

Which, speaking of situations, Bradford has had to produce much of what he's done in higher pressure situations. Run, run, 3rd & long is tough to face ALLLLLL the time. Not to mention the utter lack of a running game in the red zone.[/quote]

I can't find a damn thing to disagree with there moklerman. :fk: :lol:

In addition to the play calling changes and offensive style change that many are calling for in this thread, I'd also like to see a more rational approach to the play calling. Schotty's sudden abandonment of the type of plays that are working is maddening. As a general principle I'd like us to continue with what got us to the red zone in the first place.

I'm not seeing something cause I can't get those wuotes to come out right.

 

[-X-]

Here are some stats I dug up. Take them for what they're worth.

NFL rank (top 20)

Bradford in different formations -

3 wide - 9th - 94.3 QB Rating
Shotgun - 20th - 84.0 QB Rating
4 wide - 17th - 81.8 QB Rating
2 wide - Not Ranked

<a class="postlink" href="http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/le ... L&rank=224</a>

 

[CoachO]

I think too much can be read into that "stat". In most cases, when he is in shotgun, he is in a down and distance that will lead to him making plays. In earlier downs, when under center, there is so many other factors that come into play.

That's a good point. The percentage of snaps he's under center vs the percentage of snaps he's in the gun would shape that statistic. However, I think he would be better suited in that position - like Jim Kelly. That seems to be where/when he makes the better reads and when he's the most comfortable as well.

I agree that the stat's have to be viewed in the correct light but in today's NFL, guys like Brady, Manning...any number of QB's, pretty much live out of the shotgun and I think it's safe to say, Bradford has not been given that opportunity.
My point is, this isn't 20 years ago where the shotgun was a situational formation used mainly in 3rd and long. Spags/Shurmur decided to primarily put Bradford under center and with SJ, Bradford has generally been in a certain type of offense that is run-based. I think McDaniels probably had the right idea about a philosophy but everything else he did was such a hot mess that it's hard to give him any credit.

Handing off to SJ for 3 yards and a cloud of dust as a general approach is what Bradford's been given so far. Now, presumably, we'll get to see what Bradford can do when he gets to have something more similar to what Brees, Brady, etc. get to use all the time.

Which, speaking of situations, Bradford has had to produce much of what he's done in higher pressure situations. Run, run, 3rd & long is tough to face ALLLLLL the time. Not to mention the utter lack of a running game in the red zone.

Interesting that you list by name, arguably the two BEST QBs in the league when stating that "Bradford has not been given that opportunity"....

And it also has to be noted, that BOTH of those QBs are, and will be in an offense where they throw the ball 40+ times EVERY GAME.

I just believe that THIS TEAM, cannot win games doing that. IMO, its this line of thinking that once again, makes it all about what's best for the QB, and not what's best for the TEAM. I just don't see Fisher/Shotteneheimer turning this into that type of system. Its VERY dangerous to tailor an entire system to the talents of the QUARTERBACK, at the expense of the rest of the personnel. As nice as it is to add "weapons" such as Austin and Cook, etc.... They are gonna take time to develop.

IMO, I can see them taking a similar approach the what Atlanta has done in developing Ryan. They allowed him to grow into that offense, and added weapons year by year, and only then, took the reigns off of Ryan, and let it be HIS offense. But that didn't happen in his SECOND YEAR in the system.

I also think, that all too often, people let their frustrations of the Rams last 6-8 seasons spill over into the expectations of Bradford. He is just now in his SECOND year in what can be called HIS development in THIS SYSTEM. This should be the first time he shows the "talent" he has always possessed. But, I still say, it isn't gonna be in a Brady/Manning style offense.

 

[albefree69]

X wrote:
Here are some stats I dug up. Take them for what they're worth.

NFL rank (top 20)

Bradford in different formations -

3 wide - 9th - 94.3 QB Rating
Shotgun - 20th - 84.0 QB Rating
4 wide - 17th - 81.8 QB Rating
2 wide - Not Ranked

2 wide would presumably require a great O-line (especially in the middle of the line) and WRs who are able to get open. Making his ranking understandable.

 

[moklerman]

And it also has to be noted, that BOTH of those QBs are, and will be in an offense where they throw the ball 40+ times EVERY GAME.

I just believe that THIS TEAM, cannot win games doing that.

I don't think your line of thinking is unreasonable but I'm not sure what it's based on. Not if we look at what the Rams did as the season progressed last year.

The last 8 games of the year, Bradford threw the ball 302 times(37.75/game). And that included the game against the Cardinals where he only attempted 17 passes. My point is, they're already attempting 40 passes per game and that's without Cook, Austin, etc.

You don't think they're going to throw it less with those new additions do you? IMO, whatever running game they have is going to be by committee and as a compliment to the passing game. It doesn't mean they won't run the ball but this is going to be a passing team.

With the pass rush and pass defense they have, I would think the Rams would want to score some points and force the opposition to pass the ball. Especially in the West, you don't want Gore and Lynch dominating games. The Rams have already showed they can contain/stop Wilson/Kaepernick better than most.