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Memento said:
That wasn't at all what I was trying to point out, but thank you for taking the time to build your strawman. I never once said that they were just as good. I said that there aren't fifteen wide receivers like Bailey that come out every year.

As for college stats being meaningless, how else do you judge players properly? College statistics are the difference between Chris Long and Vernon Gholston; the difference between Luke Kuechly and Mike Mamula.

College stats and tape help with scouting players like Bailey. The Combine, on the other hand - aside from interviews and medical - is completely useless.
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BTW, you are the one that brought up TD receptions in a season as if that stat meant something - my point in calling out that two WRs that won't make it in the pros had as many TDs in a season as Dez Bryant is disputing that the stat means something - because it doesn't.
 
FrantikRam said:
Not at all building a strawman. Tape is obviously the number one thing....stats are irrelevant because there are too many variables in place - the competition, system you play in, the players around you...Texas Tech has run the spread offense for YEARS and put up gaudy numbers (also ironically in the Big 12) - yet none of their QBs, and only 3 WRs have really made it in the NFL.

Thanks for making my point on Gholston and Long - they both had 14 sacks their last year of College, yet one is a bust and one is a solid pro.

IMO the combine is more useful for scouting than a players college stats.

I am NOT saying Bailey won't be good - just that he was a 3rd round pick for a reason, in a fairly weak WR class (Tavon, Cordarelle Patterson - not exactly the class from last year), and there are several players on his level of talent in college each year.
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The Combine is worthless for everything except interviews and medical - and teams do their own checkups on character and medical, so it really is entirely worthless. Stats and physical attributes are what get players to the Combine in the first place. The only player I can even think of who didn't have the stats while blowing up the Combine and becoming a perennial All-Pro is Dontari Poe - and everyone knew what kind of defensive system Memphis played (which is why I'm worried about Mizzou's new defensive coordinator, but that's another topic.)

I never stated what you thought. I never put words into your mouth. And stats against certain college teams mean everything. You want to know some of the corners that WVU faced in 2011 and 2012? Morris Claiborne, Tyrann Mathieu, Tharold Simon (yeah, the same Simon who was starting for the Hawks in the Super Bowl), Ron Brooks,, Quandre Diggs, Carrington Byndom, Aaron Colvin, Jason Verrett, Justin Gilbert, Leonard Johnson, Blidi Wreh-Wilson, Dwayne Gratz, Coty Sensabaugh, Dexter McDougle, and Bashaud Breeland, just to name the ones who have made impacts in the NFL.

Tavon and Stedman made all of them look like fools. How many receivers do that?
 
FrantikRam said:
BTW, you are the one that brought up TD receptions in a season as if that stat meant something - my point in calling out that two WRs that won't make it in the pros had as many TDs in a season as Dez Bryant is disputing that the stat means something - because it doesn't.
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And yes, it does mean something. Maybe not to you, but it means something to the NFL scouts who do this for a living. Stats put players on the map. Plain and simple.
 
FrantikRam said:
Antonio Brown has proven he should have been drafted higher than the 6th round. Has Stedman proven that he should have been drafted higher than the 3rd?

I'm not just taking into account where he was drafted, but also what he's done in the NFL thus far. He hasn't been bad, hasn't been good. He's been average. Meanwhile Antonio Brown is arguably the best WR in the NFL.

He could develop into a good player, but right now it's not a stretch to say that there are 15 WRs comparable to Stedman Bailey in the NCAA draft every year (factoring what they did in college, where they are projected to be drafted, and what Stedman has done in the NFL thus far).
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How about we give him a chance to develop and play with a competent QB before we make that determination? He had a very productive stretch over the final part of his second season. Historically, that bodes extremely well for a WR. Because that typically means they're primed for a break out year in their third year.
 
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Athos said:
Steve Smith is a mean son of a bitch on the field and plays with physicality of a guy 30lbs heavier and 5 inches taller.
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Smith plays angrier and was more explosive than Bailey. That's true, but Bailey certainly doesn't play nice, he also plays like a big man and has everything else you can want in a wide receiver.
Steve Smith has also had one other thing we have not seen Bailey have:
...it starts with a "Q" and ends with a "B".

Smith is a very different kind of cat, he's a special player and one of a kind.

I happen to believe that Bailey, in a well oiled offense with solid QB play, could also be a very productive, play making WR.
 
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Memento said:
And yes, it does mean something. Maybe not to you, but it means something to the NFL scouts who do this for a living. Stats put players on the map. Plain and simple.
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Stats can be inflated by innumerable variables. Andre Williams almost had as many yards rushing as Barry Sanders record breaking year (in college). Williams might turn into a great back, but they are completely different players; one was a top pick and the other was a 3rd or 4th round pick.

Stats don't mean anything - it's too easy to have a great statistical season in college football. There are countless examples of guys that blew it up statistically in college and did nothing in the pros. The top QBs are a prime example. Tavon and Stedman are a good example....Stedman had superior stats yet wasn't picked until two rounds after Tavon...why??

Their PLAY gets them to the combine. Stats often come when they are playing well. But Calvin Johnson, Dontari Poe, JeDaveon Clowney...these guys were not the best statistically but managed to be high draft picks. One of them is the NFLs best WR.

You can turn on someones tape and see that they can play in the NFL - but if they are the only good player on that team, they can be triple teamed on every play and have no statistics to back that up. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, but the argument ends when you look at the college QBs who have the best stats in CFB history. College statistics don't mean much to NFL scouts - if they did, Michael Sam would have been drafted much higher.
 
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jrry32 said:
How about we give him a chance to develop and play with a competent QB before we make that determination? He had a very productive stretch over the final part of his second season. Historically, that bodes extremely well for a WR. Because that typically means they're primed for a break out year in their third year.
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I'm with you here. I hope he develops into a solid #2 WR
 
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FrantikRam said:
Stats can be inflated by innumerable variables. Andre Williams almost had as many yards rushing as Barry Sanders record breaking year (in college). Williams might turn into a great back, but they are completely different players; one was a top pick and the other was a 3rd or 4th round pick.

Stats don't mean anything - it's too easy to have a great statistical season in college football. There are countless examples of guys that blew it up statistically in college and did nothing in the pros. The top QBs are a prime example. Tavon and Stedman are a good example....Stedman had superior stats yet wasn't picked until two rounds after Tavon...why??

Their PLAY gets them to the combine. Stats often come when they are playing well. But Calvin Johnson, Dontari Poe, JeDaveon Clowney...these guys were not the best statistically but managed to be high draft picks. One of them is the NFLs best WR.

You can turn on someones tape and see that they can play in the NFL - but if they are the only good player on that team, they can be triple teamed on every play and have no statistics to back that up. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, but the argument ends when you look at the college QBs who have the best stats in CFB history. College statistics don't mean much to NFL scouts - if they did, Michael Sam would have been drafted much higher.
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LAWL at the bolded part. You're just so wrong that it's not even funny. There's not even a question about it; you're just flat out wrong.

Calvin Johnson won the Biletnikoff Award and the Warfield Trophy in his junior year with seventy-six catches, fifteen touchdowns, and one-thousand-two-hundred-and-two yards.

Jadeveon Clowney won the Ted Hendricks Award in his sophomore year (best defensive end in college football) and was a finalist for the Nagurski, the Bednarik, and the Lombardi award with thirteen sacks, three forced fumbles, and 23.5 tackles for a loss. The only reason he didn't produce in his junior year was because of an injury, but his outstanding sophomore season got him on the map.

That season by Andre Williams got him drafted by the Giants. Bailey and Austin got drafted as highly as they did in part because of their stats.

Michael Sam was an entirely different case with entirely different reasons as to why teams didn't draft him as highly as they should have, but I'm not getting into that discussion again; there's another thread for that.

So please don't feed me that crap that stats don't mean anything.
 
Fatbot said:
What's incredible is 17 of the 31 first round picks in 2001 ended up making at least one Pro Bowl. So it was bad luck (45%) for one pick to bust. But *three* picks all busting? Those chances were 9%. Cha-ching! Rams Luck(TM) hits the jackpot.
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You think Pickett was a bust? I'd have to differ on that. He certainly took a while to develop and didn't play his best ball until he left the Rams, but overall had a solid career.

Even Lewis had a couple/three solid, if unspectacular, seasons for Carolina. Granted, never lived up to a Rd1, #12 pick, but I guess it depends on how one defines 'bust'.
 
Memento said:
The Combine is worthless for everything except interviews and medical - and teams do their own checkups on character and medical, so it really is entirely worthless. ......
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Then why does every team in the NFL send half their coaching staff and scouting dept to it? It certainly isn't a critical piece of the evaluation process, but 'worthless' is a bit strong, IMO.

And IF they actually start doing position relevant drills as has been discussed, it could become an interesting and fairly worthwhile tool.
 
FrankenRam said:
I guess it depends on how one defines 'bust'.
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No, I was just being mentally lazy while failing at funny. I totally agree with you that the Pro Bowl popularity contest is not the only way to measure a productive pick. But I still think the Rams are pretty unlucky.
 
Fatbot said:
No, I was just being mentally lazy while failing at funny. I totally agree with you that the Pro Bowl popularity contest is not the only way to measure a productive pick. But I still think the Rams are pretty unlucky.
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Ohhhh..., NO doubt about that. 'Unlucky' is actually a fairly nice way of putting it. :)
 
Crap, wasn't meant to send that. Sure it was an auto correct issue in the first place. (Looks for a shadow to hide in. Stupid new phone)
 
FrankenRam said:
You think Pickett was a bust? I'd have to differ on that. He certainly took a while to develop and didn't play his best ball until he left the Rams, but overall had a solid career.

Even Lewis had a couple/three solid, if unspectacular, seasons for Carolina. Granted, never lived up to a Rd1, #12 pick, but I guess it depends on how one defines 'bust'.
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Can we say they "busted" for the Rams?

I hope we don't have anymore of those, u know, the ones that bust for us and have a pretty solid career on another team. Kind of like...the two mentioned, can't remember any other players in the past decade that actually played like crap here and went somewhere else and did well.. Players usually come here to get their last paycheck before they retired if I recall.
 
Sleepy1711 said:
Can we say they "busted" for the Rams?

I hope we don't have anymore of those, u know, the ones that bust for us and have a pretty solid career on another team. Kind of like...the two mentioned, can't remember any other players in the past decade that actually played like crap here and went somewhere else and did well.. Players usually come here to get their last paycheck before they retired if I recall.
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IMO, Lewis was definitely a bust for the Rams. Archuletta....ehhh, close. Pickett I recall coming on fairly strong his last yr here, but the FO didn't think he warranted the FA $$ to resign. If my memory serves (which it too often doesn't these days), I think there was mixed sentiments about whether letting him get away was a good move at the time.

Overall, I think you're right though. It does seem many more have come here for the paycheck and never played up to it.

Interesting topic. A couple others I can think of that have left the Rams and done better for other teams...
- John Greco. Rather injury prone in his times with the Rams, but seems to have carved out a decent career in Cleveland.
- George Selvie. Cut after 1 yr(?) with the Rams. Bounced around a bit, has been a starter for Dallas the last couple yr, I believe. He's been the one that makes me wonder how Michael Sam can't land a job if GS can. I may be all wrong, but I seem to recall many of the same complaints about GS that we heard last year about MS.
 
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