Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense)

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Angry Ram

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

Don't forget Bradford was responsible for protection calls. Couple that w/ all the other stuff then..well, ya know.

In a perfect world only the starting center would make line calls for the season...
 

joeybittick

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

X said:
Memento said:
I'm just hoping that it works and that Bradford has more time to throw than he did in this video. Honestly, it was one of the most excrutiating things I've watched in recent times.
Wasn't any picnic to make it either, brother - let me tell ya. Kinda got pissed while I was piecing it together, thinking to myself, "yeah, he has problems holding onto the ball (while being blind-sided) and he holds onto the ball too long (all 2 seconds)." It was a necessary evil though to make it. People NEED to see that before they get all stupid with their 'Bradford sucks' talk.

I might have been too late though. :neh:

Yeah, it seems like people love giving their opinions, but don't really seems to care for re-examining them :bummed: ... Luckily though we don't have the problem at ROD :bign: right? :?!:

(P.S. Just kidding on that last word :razzed: )
 

JdashSTL

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

zn said:
I also add in the entire offensive approach McD took. It's like he expected young players just to act like veterans and execute a new offense at the level required just right off the bat. My bet is that Brian S will not make that mistake.

I wonder how much that could have been helped if we got more coaches and players familiar with his offense. Im pretty sure Lloyd was the only guy that had any familiarity with his offense. When Spags came here he brought guys like Kehl, Butler, and Robbins to teach the D to the other players. Oh well. Totally agree on Schotty.
 

Young Ram

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

GOSH that was horrible to watch. Poor Sam.
 

superfan24

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

JdashSTL said:
zn said:
I also add in the entire offensive approach McD took. It's like he expected young players just to act like veterans and execute a new offense at the level required just right off the bat. My bet is that Brian S will not make that mistake.

I wonder how much that could have been helped if we got more coaches and players familiar with his offense. Im pretty sure Lloyd was the only guy that had any familiarity with his offense. When Spags came here he brought guys like Kehl, Butler, and Robbins to teach the D to the other players. Oh well. Totally agree on Schotty.

Exactly its too bad Spags went with the risky option with McD who I still believe Belicheat sent to screw us :hehe:
Also am betting that Shotty will shkae this O up to a more conventional one.
 

DR RAM

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

This wasn't about the offensive scheme, or Bradford, or protections. Watch the tape, it is all about players getting beat one on one. Watch Bajema, and Smith, and Brown, and Saffold...that's not ON anyone else.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

DR RAM said:
This wasn't about the offensive scheme, or Bradford, or protections. Watch the tape, it is all about players getting beat one on one. Watch Bajema, and Smith, and Brown, and Saffold...that's not ON anyone else.
This.

4 man rush on 5 guys, and sacked in 2 seconds. TE missing a block and blindsided. Now, if we had receivers who could get 5 yards of separation in 2.2 seconds, then none of it would be an issue. :lol:
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

Look how many of those sacks were off the left side. Look how many times Bajema got absolutely USED!!!
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

X said:
DR RAM said:
This wasn't about the offensive scheme, or Bradford, or protections. Watch the tape, it is all about players getting beat one on one. Watch Bajema, and Smith, and Brown, and Saffold...that's not ON anyone else.
This.

4 man rush on 5 guys, and sacked in 2 seconds. TE missing a block and blindsided. Now, if we had receivers who could get 5 yards of separation in 2.2 seconds, then none of it would be an issue. :lol:

This was a perfect storm and it included being about the scheme, the protections, the lockout, Bradford, the receivers, and the coordinator. I think it also included player issues such as Brown reporting out of shape with his head not on right, and Saffold losing confidence and freaking out over it. (Saffold also had technique issues against bull rushers, to the point where defenses were gameplanning to exploit it.)

(I will say this about Fisher. We will never see his starters lose confidence like that. If he has any one single gift as a coach, it's cultivating confidence.)

Anyway--just reducing it to 5 guys who suddenly couldn't play is way too reductive and does not match what I saw.

I like Venturi's take better. He saw the issues brewing in the preseason. He said at first he thought the linemen didn't know the protections. Then he realized they did--the book learning was there, but the execution wasn't. It was an issue of timing and being out of sync--executing in real time. They did not have the reps and on top of it the coordinator either never adjusted for that or did a bad job if he did.

The Rams line has looked this way three times in the last several years, and each time it wasn't talent per se but execution and not being coherent yet. The start of 2006 (new system). The start of 2009 (watch the 2009 opening game against Seattle again). The first few games of 2011. In each case, the major culprit was just execution issues from not having gelled yet and thinking (and sometimes thinking wrong) instead of playing.

Then of course in 2011, when they finally got the chance to settle down, the injuries took over.

One thing Fisher said was a dead giveaway. He said he liked Bell in Tennessee and wanted to keep him back then. He said he played better in the 2nd half of 2011. So that means he liked him before, and based on last year, has no problems with the idea of keeping him. But what is the deal with saying he was better in the 2nd half?

The point of raising Fisher's comment is not to think anything particular one way or another about Bell--it's just that in commenting on a Rams lineman, Fisher noticed that there was a difference in how they played earlier and later. The way I see it, in the 2nd half of the season the issues Venturi described improved. Bell picked up his game accordingly. At that point the issue became injuries though.

The one scenario I personally don't want to see is the one where they move Saffold to the right (he doesn't have a Jeff Fisher's Type of Right Tackle profile) and a rookie on the left. You might as well directly ask for a repeat of the 2009 opener.

Another thing that will help? Brian S. is just simply not going to make the kinds of mistakes McDaniels did. He is not a "system at all costs" kinda guy--he is a heavy-duty "adjust to what your players do well" kinda guy.

In terms of putting a vid together, what would really help would be a comparison. Look for as many plays as possible from 2010 where Bradford took more than a 3 step drop or had the ball for 3 seconds or more. They exist. I think you will find they did not have the same issues in 2010. Same players.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

zn said:
I will say this about Fisher.
Okay Snead.

Granted there was a lot going on, and the lockout didn't help matters much. BUT. When it comes down to taking on the man in front of you during a 4-man rush, and you get bulldozed back into the QB, then scheme isn't a factor. It's just not doing your job. I think everyone gets that there was a lot of confusion at first, and there were injuries that took cohesion (the most important part of an offensive line) right out of the picture. But, ya know, again, when nothing exotic is happening, and you only have to hold your block - and you don't - then that's just being beaten.

Like you said, Fisher probably won't let that happen. Can't guarantee that of course, but that's his "thing" or "legacy" or something. Saying that guys were getting beaten one-on-one isn't necessarily an insult, because as mentioned here in this thread, there are things that contributed to that. Or caused that. Just when making (and re-watching) that video, I primarily saw our guys getting handled. Rather easily. Some of that was late in the season, and some of it was early on (Eagles), and all of it has something to do with no off-season conditioning, no off-season preparation, possibly a flaw in coaching, and the confusion associated with learning a new system and adapting to changing protections. All in too short a time. We know this because it didn't affect the teams that have been in the same system and been together for a long period of time.

Anyway, long of the short of it is, IMO, sometimes you just gotta take care of business by handling the guy in front of you. There weren't very many times when all 5 were doing that at the same time. Hopefully with a change in philosophy (establish the run, protect the QB), we'll finally see an end to that disturbing trend.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

X said:
zn said:
I will say this about Fisher.
Okay Snead.

Granted there was a lot going on, and the lockout didn't help matters much. BUT. When it comes down to taking on the man in front of you during a 4-man rush, and you get bulldozed back into the QB, then scheme isn't a factor. It's just not doing your job. I think everyone gets that there was a lot of confusion at first, and there were injuries that took cohesion (the most important part of an offensive line) right out of the picture. But, ya know, again, when nothing exotic is happening, and you only have to hold your block - and you don't - then that's just being beaten.

Like you said, Fisher probably won't let that happen. Can't guarantee that of course, but that's his "thing" or "legacy" or something. Saying that guys were getting beaten one-on-one isn't necessarily an insult, because as mentioned here in this thread, there are things that contributed to that. Or caused that. Just when making (and re-watching) that video, I primarily saw our guys getting handled. Rather easily. Some of that was late in the season, and some of it was early on (Eagles), and all of it has something to do with no off-season conditioning, no off-season preparation, possibly a flaw in coaching, and the confusion associated with learning a new system and adapting to changing protections. All in too short a time. We know this because it didn't affect the teams that have been in the same system and been together for a long period of time.

Anyway, long of the short of it is, IMO, sometimes you just gotta take care of business by handling the guy in front of you. There weren't very many times when all 5 were doing that at the same time. Hopefully with a change in philosophy (establish the run, protect the QB), we'll finally see an end to that disturbing trend.

I don;t think it DID come down to just that, and execution issues account for why 2010 and 2011 differed in that regard anyway. The theory I hear is that they weren't as exposed as much in 2010. The only way to test that is to compare the longer developing plays from 2010 to 2011. The shorter plays don't matter--we already know they could execute those in 2010, which means that they regressed in 2011. If they ALL regressed (and they did) then it's not talent, or at least that wouldn't be the main culprit.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

zn said:
X said:
zn said:
I will say this about Fisher.
Okay Snead.

Granted there was a lot going on, and the lockout didn't help matters much. BUT. When it comes down to taking on the man in front of you during a 4-man rush, and you get bulldozed back into the QB, then scheme isn't a factor. It's just not doing your job. I think everyone gets that there was a lot of confusion at first, and there were injuries that took cohesion (the most important part of an offensive line) right out of the picture. But, ya know, again, when nothing exotic is happening, and you only have to hold your block - and you don't - then that's just being beaten.

Like you said, Fisher probably won't let that happen. Can't guarantee that of course, but that's his "thing" or "legacy" or something. Saying that guys were getting beaten one-on-one isn't necessarily an insult, because as mentioned here in this thread, there are things that contributed to that. Or caused that. Just when making (and re-watching) that video, I primarily saw our guys getting handled. Rather easily. Some of that was late in the season, and some of it was early on (Eagles), and all of it has something to do with no off-season conditioning, no off-season preparation, possibly a flaw in coaching, and the confusion associated with learning a new system and adapting to changing protections. All in too short a time. We know this because it didn't affect the teams that have been in the same system and been together for a long period of time.

Anyway, long of the short of it is, IMO, sometimes you just gotta take care of business by handling the guy in front of you. There weren't very many times when all 5 were doing that at the same time. Hopefully with a change in philosophy (establish the run, protect the QB), we'll finally see an end to that disturbing trend.

I don;t think it DID come down to just that, and execution issues account for why 2010 and 2011 differed in that regard anyway. The theory I hear is that they weren't as exposed as much in 2010. The only way to test that is to compare the longer developing plays from 2010 to 2011. The shorter plays don't matter--we already know they could execute those in 2010, which means that they regressed in 2011. If they ALL regressed (and they did) then it's not talent, or at least that wouldn't be the main culprit.
Interesting. I'll try to work on that this weekend and see what I can come up with. Visual evidence is always the surest way to determine the validity of a theory. I'll see if I can find 5-7 step drops in 2010 and see how Bradford was protected, and then make a mix-video to show the differences or similarities. This all hinges on the availability of highlights from 2010 though.

Consider the gauntlet picked up.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

Also, Zach Neruda, can you try to explain how 4 guys can beat 5 on a straight-up pass rush? Assuming there was no disguised blitz, no stunts, nothing out of the ordinary. How can 4 beat 5 if nothing else is going on but a normal pass-rush? In what waaa-aaaay....... (that's from a movie, I just don't remember which one) would scheme influence a straight up beating like that? Or would that just be the "lack of off-season" portion of their overall struggles last year?
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

When you are "successful" at something - ANYTHING, you are often able to do other things moderately well in return. Might be why the play-action works pretty much only when you can run the ball at least somewhat effectively - eh? To say that Bradford was able to do a few 3 and 5 step drops under Shurmur really says nothing except that Shurmur's conservative game plan worked better than McD's last season. Now there is a news bulletin.

I would definitely agree that McD needed to take better account of his personnel. No argument at all. But if you watch that video and also think back at what we all witnessed throughout the season, that O-line simply got handled and blown back off the line.

Watch and notice that there are often not even any possible avenues of escape. The edges are sealed and the DTs or NT is crushing his man back toward Bradford. And the defenses were doing this in absolutely no time at all.

I think the main point of this thread - if I didn't totally miss it - was that Bradford was not the problem and does not deserve a lot of the criticism some of the yahoos are launching at him. I'm not saying he didn't miss some passes or blow some reads. Of course he did. You'd have to be turning a blind eye not to have seen some of them. But give any QB that kind of protection and a bunch of receivers who had no idea what they were doing out there and I'm pretty sure none of them will look a whole lot better - 2nd year QB or not. Peyton freakin' Manning couldn't have made that offense click.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

Conversely, here's what protection looks like.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0dT-NkLFvo[/youtube]

And he STILL missed his receiver. It's official. Brady sucks. :twisted:
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

X said:
Conversely, here's what protection looks like.

And he STILL missed his receiver. It's official. Brady sucks. :twisted:

Yep... the dude holds onto the ball WAAAAAAY too long and is inaccurate. What a bust.
 

Anonymous

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

X said:
Also, Zach Neruda, can you try to explain how 4 guys can beat 5 on a straight-up pass rush? Assuming there was no disguised blitz, no stunts, nothing out of the ordinary. How can 4 beat 5 if nothing else is going on but a normal pass-rush? In what waaa-aaaay....... (that's from a movie, I just don't remember which one) would scheme influence a straight up beating like that? Or would that just be the "lack of off-season" portion of their overall struggles last year?

Yes.

Timing and execution were bad in a new offense.

If a line isn't coherent yet that can easily happen.

In fact the first 4 games last year to me looked remarkably similar to the opening games in 2006 and 2009, both system switch years. It's illuminating to break out the 2009 Seattle game. Yet later, with Bulger as the qb anyway, they had a sack percentage of 5.4%, which isn't bad. In the Seattle game they looked like they couldn't play at all.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

zn said:
X said:
Also, Zach Neruda, can you try to explain how 4 guys can beat 5 on a straight-up pass rush? Assuming there was no disguised blitz, no stunts, nothing out of the ordinary. How can 4 beat 5 if nothing else is going on but a normal pass-rush? In what waaa-aaaay....... (that's from a movie, I just don't remember which one) would scheme influence a straight up beating like that? Or would that just be the "lack of off-season" portion of their overall struggles last year?

Yes.

Timing and execution were bad in a new offense.

If a line isn't coherent yet that can easily happen.

In fact the first 4 games last year to me looked remarkably similar to the opening games in 2006 and 2009, both system switch years. It's illuminating to break out the 2009 Seattle game. Yet later, with Bulger as the qb anyway, they had a sack percentage of 5.4%, which isn't bad. In the Seattle game they looked like they couldn't play at all.

I was at that 2009 Seattle opener and I (being the masochist I apparently am) watched it on Rewind when I got home. If I recall right, the O-line didn't play all that bad early on. The defense gave the offense multiple opportunities but the offense couldn't do squat. I'll have to watch it again when my Rewind renews (not paying for the off-season BS package) but it seemed that once the Seattle D realized how bad the Rams offense was, they just started pinning their ears back and coming after Bulger. Just my recollection - I could definitely be wrong.

I really do think, however, that yes, the 2011 offense was out of sync and that certainly contributed heavily to the offensive woes. But I really don't see where that accounts for simply being blown back off the line time and time again.
 

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

X said:
Also, Zach Neruda, can you try to explain how 4 guys can beat 5 on a straight-up pass rush? Assuming there was no disguised blitz, no stunts, nothing out of the ordinary. How can 4 beat 5 if nothing else is going on but a normal pass-rush? In what waaa-aaaay....... (that's from a movie, I just don't remember which one) would scheme influence a straight up beating like that? Or would that just be the "lack of off-season" portion of their overall struggles last year?

"In what.......waaaaaaaaaay does the author’s use of the prison symbolize the protagonist’s struggle?" - English Teacher from Ferris Bueller's Day Off.....
 

JdashSTL

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Re: Ultimate 2011 Rams O-line Highlights (Bradford's defense

zn said:
X said:
Also, Zach Neruda, can you try to explain how 4 guys can beat 5 on a straight-up pass rush? Assuming there was no disguised blitz, no stunts, nothing out of the ordinary. How can 4 beat 5 if nothing else is going on but a normal pass-rush? In what waaa-aaaay....... (that's from a movie, I just don't remember which one) would scheme influence a straight up beating like that? Or would that just be the "lack of off-season" portion of their overall struggles last year?

Yes.

Timing and execution were bad in a new offense.

If a line isn't coherent yet that can easily happen.

In fact the first 4 games last year to me looked remarkably similar to the opening games in 2006 and 2009, both system switch years. It's illuminating to break out the 2009 Seattle game. Yet later, with Bulger as the qb anyway, they had a sack percentage of 5.4%, which isn't bad. In the Seattle game they looked like they couldn't play at all.

But I really thought it would be a smooth transition for them in 2011 because 4 of the 5 starters played together most of 2010 (they were healthy!!!), and we just added Dahl at RG.