The On Side Kick

[Thordaddy]

I can't imagine why when it would occur to me would matter,WHEN it would occur to me is in training camp IF it was my job to teach these guys.
Everyone agrees that it was a mistake,

I don't agree. I still believe you're expecting an incredibly heads-up play. One that would be talked about and shown on highlights.

I'll tell you why it matters when you thought about a fair catch. Because if you didn't think of it right then, you're simply second-guessing the guy who was on the spot. You're implying he wasn't coached correctly when you can't know that.

NO what I'm implying is that if he wasn't coached to do it he should have been OR that if he was he failed to do what he was coached to do. ONE or the OTHER. I'll entertain any other option you might care to posit though.
That is what I KNOW,and is not really subject to debate,unless you think a ST coach doesn't NEED to know that rule. It's a nuance of ST play a good ST coach will be aware of,hell he deals with FC all the time on punts, I refuse to believe that I have discovered a nitch in the game especially SINCE the rules allow for it, it's on somebody that it wasn't called,who I don't know, but somebody screwed the pooch,and we gave up points off it when with a heads up play WE probably score.
It is IMO WORTHY of note, and so I did.

 

[Ram Quixote]

I can't imagine why when it would occur to me would matter,WHEN it would occur to me is in training camp IF it was my job to teach these guys.
Everyone agrees that it was a mistake,

I don't agree. I still believe you're expecting an incredibly heads-up play. One that would be talked about and shown on highlights.

I'll tell you why it matters when you thought about a fair catch. Because if you didn't think of it right then, you're simply second-guessing the guy who was on the spot. You're implying he wasn't coached correctly when you can't know that.

NO what I'm implying is that if he wasn't coached to do it he should have been OR that if he was he failed to do what he was coached to do. ONE or the OTHER. I'll entertain any other option you might care to posit though.
That is what I KNOW,and is not really subject to debate,unless you think a ST coach doesn't NEED to know that rule. It's a nuance of ST play a good ST coach will be aware of,hell he deals with FC all the time on punts, I refuse to believe that I have discovered a nitch in the game especially SINCE the rules allow for it, it's on somebody that it wasn't called,who I don't know, but somebody screwed the pooch,and we gave up points off it when with a heads up play WE probably score.
It is IMO WORTHY of note, and so I did.

I posit that, coached or not, the INSTINCT to catch/recover the onside kick would overrule the fair catch training of 99.9% of all players faced with the same choice as Tru. Calling his decision a mistake is the nit-pick of all nit-picks.

No amount of drilling, meetings or on the field, is going to erase instinct (see the ball, get the ball). Take another look at DR's post.

I've been on the hands team, and I've had the ball kicked to me on an onside kick. It scares the crap out of you even if you are expecting it, and Tru certainly wasn't.

 

[-X-]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



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[DR RAM]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



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No, I don't think that is the case. A kickoff is a live ball it just has to go 10 yards.
I would bet my house he knew the rule, but i don't think he had time to implement it. He was just trying to catch the live ball. Recognize..one thousand one, judge where the ball is going...one thousand two... Do you have time to clearly raise your hand above your head and wave it, and still position yourself to catch the ball??? GB just executed that perfect. It probably took less than 2 seconds to get to Tru. If he was expecting it, he may have made the fair catch, who knows. If he would have without expecting it, it would have been an unbelievable play IMO. Would I like him to make that play? Yes. Do I think he knew the rule? Yes.

 

[Thordaddy]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



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Yup Dude that's what a "fair catch " is and point of fact it means you can't be blasted at all ,you HAVE to catch the ball but you can't be hit before or after the catch.
If you muff it, then bets are off, but it's still better than being clobbered so you do drop it.
BTW Quix where'd ya get those stats?

 

[DR RAM]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

Yup Dude that's what a "fair catch " is and point of fact it means you can't be blasted at all ,you HAVE to catch the ball but you can't be hit before or after the catch.
If you muff it, then bets are off, but it's still better than being clobbered so you do drop it.
BTW Quix where'd ya get those stats?

He knows what a fair catch is, he was talking bout the halo rule.

 

[Thordaddy]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

Yup Dude that's what a "fair catch " is and point of fact it means you can't be blasted at all ,you HAVE to catch the ball but you can't be hit before or after the catch.
If you muff it, then bets are off, but it's still better than being clobbered so you do drop it.
BTW Quix where'd ya get those stats?

He knows what a fair catch is, he was talking bout the halo rule.

To respond to your time frame proposition, baseball players make decisions far faster than the time Tru had,it's entirely possible to execute in the time alotted,but you HAVE TO have your head in the game. Bets are he doesn't miss it again.

 

[Ram Quixote]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

Yup Dude that's what a "fair catch " is and point of fact it means you can't be blasted at all ,you HAVE to catch the ball but you can't be hit before or after the catch.
If you muff it, then bets are off, but it's still better than being clobbered so you do drop it.
BTW Quix where'd ya get those stats?

It's not a stat; it's well-informed speculation on the hard-wired nature of football players.

As DR said, between recognition and execution, the ball is on him before you can say, fair catch.

 

[Ram Quixote]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

Yup Dude that's what a "fair catch " is and point of fact it means you can't be blasted at all ,you HAVE to catch the ball but you can't be hit before or after the catch.
If you muff it, then bets are off, but it's still better than being clobbered so you do drop it.
BTW Quix where'd ya get those stats?

He knows what a fair catch is, he was talking bout the halo rule.

To respond to your time frame proposition, baseball players make decisions far faster than the time Tru had,it's entirely possible to execute in the time alotted,but you HAVE TO have your head in the game. Bets are he doesn't miss it again.

By this comparison, a third baseman must also watch out for a teammate of the batter running up to keep him from fielding the ball and throw out the batter. Plus, he wasn't expecting the ball to be hit at him.

Apples and oranges.

 

[DR RAM]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

Yup Dude that's what a "fair catch " is and point of fact it means you can't be blasted at all ,you HAVE to catch the ball but you can't be hit before or after the catch.
If you muff it, then bets are off, but it's still better than being clobbered so you do drop it.
BTW Quix where'd ya get those stats?

He knows what a fair catch is, he was talking bout the halo rule.

To respond to your time frame proposition, baseball players make decisions far faster than the time Tru had,it's entirely possible to execute in the time alotted,but you HAVE TO have your head in the game. Bets are he doesn't miss it again.

By this comparison, a third baseman must also watch out for a teammate of the batter running up to keep him from fielding the ball and throw out the batter. Plus, he wasn't expecting the ball to be hit at him.

Apples and oranges.

Agreed, no comparison, and I've played both. I don't think this is going anywhere. Thor, you think he should have made the play. I and others don't. It's opinions, and nobody is changing them.

 

[shaunpinney]

it's a 50/50 call and the truth of the matter is it didn't go our way - I'd imagine his main thoughts were "Catch the ball... Sh•t I'm gonna get hit... did I catch it?!?"

 

[Thordaddy]

Maybe somebody knows the rules here, but isn't he afforded the same protection as on a punt reception? Meaning, you can't blast a guy before he's had a chance to cleanly field the punt. Right?



Sent via Tapatalk2.

Yup Dude that's what a "fair catch " is and point of fact it means you can't be blasted at all ,you HAVE to catch the ball but you can't be hit before or after the catch.
If you muff it, then bets are off, but it's still better than being clobbered so you do drop it.
BTW Quix where'd ya get those stats?

He knows what a fair catch is, he was talking bout the halo rule.

To respond to your time frame proposition, baseball players make decisions far faster than the time Tru had,it's entirely possible to execute in the time alotted,but you HAVE TO have your head in the game. Bets are he doesn't miss it again.

By this comparison, a third baseman must also watch out for a teammate of the batter running up to keep him from fielding the ball and throw out the batter. Plus, he wasn't expecting the ball to be hit at him.

Apples and oranges.

Not apples and oranges at all time was all I was referring to and I went back last night and replayed it to see how long he had, By the time the ball was at it's highest point,I had said "fair catch" twice he had a LOT of time and IF he'd practiced it enough he could have been completely relaxed andin fact the fair catch signal takes the pressure off if he has the pressence of mind to do it. Yeah Doc it's gotten down to where people have dug their heals in and aren't changing their "opinons" and I'm not asking anyone TO change theirs. I started this thread and didn't COME HERE to try to change anyones the facts are good enough for me.
So here arethe facts from which we can all go forth with oour opinions
1. The rules allow for a fair catch there
2. If he calls a fair catch Tru is protected from the hit thattook him out not only on that play but from the game
3. We lost the ball when we were supposed to get it and it resulted ina FG when had we gtten the ball as we were supposed to we would have been near mid field withan excellent chance to kick a FG on that drive so a probable six point swing in a game that was decided by 10
4.IF it's a rule it's the coaches job to make the players aware
5. If the coaches made the player aware of the rule it's the players job to implement what the coach taught him

From there we can go forward with our interpretation of whatwe think should have been, but it's not a matter of the entire thing being just opinion.

One more thing,I'll bet MY HOUSE after this discussion there isn't a single person engaged who if they were a special teams coach wouldn't remember this discussion and after considering whether it was worth it to his team or not ,wouldn't teach his team what to do in that situation ,it's called getting your team prepared for more than just the expected because every game you see the unexpected have profound impact,.
I guess I'll close with this question.
Who here wouldn't coach it and why ,I'm very interested in a logical reason why anyone wouldn't because honestly if there is a good reason not to I'd REALLY like to hear it.

Once more, I started this thread and as long as people want to come and find fault with my opinion ,it's not ME being obstreperous by defending it.
I would also like to say,I have been careful to in no way characterize anyone elses opinion as anything perjorative ,I have NOT been given the same courtesy ,I think differing opinions are the life blood of discussion, characterizing them in negative terms is why discussions become arguments.

For the record ,the smart play was the fair catch ,I don't hear any argument against that , I want the smartest most tallented team on the field, I want Tru to be smart enough to learn from this, if those goals don't appeal to others , I'm OK with them as long as they don't ask me to accept lesser standards.
One more FACT we can't change the past and my objective never was to do so, what I want is to make the future better,God KNOWS the past is something none of us want to repeat, have a good'n

 

[shaunpinney]

Thordaddy - got to agree with you, and I'm sure they have been told to prep for the onside kick - maybe a rabbit in the headlights moment for the rookie, probably half an eye on the oncoming Packers and the other half on the ball - i'm sure he'll learn from it.

I bet the team won't be caught out easily again.

In a similar way I bet you every team we play against (since week 4) are keeping an eye on the sidelines when we go for a close range FG I guess EVERY NFL team involves in a little bit of trickery now and again, it's up to the opposing team (this time us) to be on the ball and to keep our eyes peeled and our wits about us.

 

[Thordaddy]

Thordaddy - got to agree with you, and I'm sure they have been told to prep for the onside kick - maybe a rabbit in the headlights moment for the rookie, probably half an eye on the oncoming Packers and the other half on the ball - i'm sure he'll learn from it.

I bet the team won't be caught out easily again.

In a similar way I bet you every team we play against (since week 4) are keeping an eye on the sidelines when we go for a close range FG I guess EVERY NFL team involves in a little bit of trickery now and again, it's up to the opposing team (this time us) to be on the ball and to keep our eyes peeled and our wits about us.

Yup I'm really glad this happened in a game when we were expected to lose, if it had happened in a close game during a playoff push.I get the idea that being less charitable with the rook would be more prevalent.
The harm IOW wasn't seen as profound so everyone finds it easier to give a pass, lesson learned Go RAMS

 

[shaunpinney]

Yup I'm really glad this happened in a game when we were expected to lose, if it had happened in a close game during a playoff push.I get the idea that being less charitable with the rook would be more prevalent.
The harm IOW wasn't seen as profound so everyone finds it easier to give a pass, lesson learned Go RAMS

And at least it happened to a rookie - and we can call it a steep learning curve and not one of our senior players - who should have known better

 

[LBRamsFan]

Actually, Tru Johnson could not fair catch the onside kick. The ball was kicked hard into the ground (as virtually all onside kicks are for this very reason), causing the ball to bounce high into the air. Once the ball strikes the ground, there is no longer a fair catch available to the receiving team, just like you cannot fair catch a punt once it strikes the ground.

LBRamsfan

 

[-X-]

Actually, Tru Johnson could not fair catch the onside kick. The ball was kicked hard into the ground (as virtually all onside kicks are for this very reason), causing the ball to bounce high into the air. Once the ball strikes the ground, there is no longer a fair catch available to the receiving team, just like you cannot fair catch a punt once it strikes the ground.

LBRamsfan

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. I went through the rule book and couldn't see anything about a kickoff and fair catches. Not that it would matter anyway; because, as you say, if the ball hits ground or is touched by member of kicking team in flight, the fair catch signal is off and all rules for a kicked ball apply.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules

So, this is all moot. Since the kickoff was hit into the ground first - ergo, no fair catch could be called.
I mean, unless someone can show me a specific rule that says differently.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGNbHFDoJVM[/youtube]

 

[Thordaddy]

Actually, Tru Johnson could not fair catch the onside kick. The ball was kicked hard into the ground (as virtually all onside kicks are for this very reason), causing the ball to bounce high into the air. Once the ball strikes the ground, there is no longer a fair catch available to the receiving team, just like you cannot fair catch a punt once it strikes the ground.

LBRamsfan

Well I guess we have a debate about THAT then because IMO if the ball has never left the ground ,which it did not untill it took flight it is still a pop up until the first time it returns to ground the ball STARTS/tee on the ground and never leaves it untill the first pop up. So yeah IMO it's a rule book interpretation.

I'll try to research it and come back however it is still worth the try to impede the on rushing tacklers and to force a replay because there is a change of possession.
Tru STILL NEEDS to call for the fair catch because he isn't able to know how the kick is going to be called.

 

[-X-]

Actually, Tru Johnson could not fair catch the onside kick. The ball was kicked hard into the ground (as virtually all onside kicks are for this very reason), causing the ball to bounce high into the air. Once the ball strikes the ground, there is no longer a fair catch available to the receiving team, just like you cannot fair catch a punt once it strikes the ground.

LBRamsfan

Well I guess we have a debate about THAT then because IMO if the ball has never left the ground ,which it did not untill it took flight it is still a pop up until the first time it returns to ground the ball STARTS/tee on the ground and never leaves it untill the first pop up. So yeah IMO it's a rule book interpretation.

I'll try to research it and come back however it is still worth the try to impede the on rushing tacklers and to force a replay because there is a change of possession.
Tru STILL NEEDS to call for the fair catch because he isn't able to know how the kick is going to be called.

Nah. It hit the ground before ever taking flight. Watch it. Can't call a fair catch in that case.
In fact, I've never seen anyone try in that instance.




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[DR RAM]

Actually, Tru Johnson could not fair catch the onside kick. The ball was kicked hard into the ground (as virtually all onside kicks are for this very reason), causing the ball to bounce high into the air. Once the ball strikes the ground, there is no longer a fair catch available to the receiving team, just like you cannot fair catch a punt once it strikes the ground.

LBRamsfan

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. I went through the rule book and couldn't see anything about a kickoff and fair catches. Not that it would matter anyway; because, as you say, if the ball hits ground or is touched by member of kicking team in flight, the fair catch signal is off and all rules for a kicked ball apply.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules

So, this is all moot. Since the kickoff was hit into the ground first - ergo, no fair catch could be called.
I mean, unless someone can show me a specific rule that says differently.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGNbHFDoJVM[/youtube]

Yeah, I couldn't find anything either. I read about a rule change, but I don't think it was for the NFL (NCAA). I just scoured the whole NFL rule book. Moot point it seems. It definitely hit the ground, so a fair catch would not have been valid.