The FULL 12 minutes of that Williams audio

[Stranger]

He offered bounties in that audio (which is illegal--the very act of offering a bounty is illegal). He deliberately named specific injuries to go after and that included making hits in the pile.

You don't need a context for that. It is what it is.

It's enough. The rest is time-waste. He did the 2 things you can never do, openly and in public and it's on record.

Any effort to pretend like that's not damning is just going to fail.

Same with any effort to try and blame the messanger.

And of course on top of it Williams has already admitted to all of this, openly.

Please stop using the word "illegal". Williams did not break any law, he merely did not act in accordance with some internal operating rules setup by a private business. Big difference.

 

[-X-]

Bleeping out the names of players who were obviously participating in this "program" along with GW hides the whole truth. The entire picture is being hidden.

You cannot have the truth without full disclosure.

Witch hunt tactic 101.... the truth never comes out.

The guy who made the tape only knows he knows that the league has not yet acted on players. He has no idea which ones they're going after and which ones they're not. He actually intervenes in their process if he outs players.

Meanwhile, Wms has been charged, he fully confessed, and that process is over. The tape tells us nothing about Williams we did not already know.

Wms. is guilty as charged. Blaming the messanger in this case does nothing to change that.

To accurately assess this entire situation and to put it in context, one would have to publicly release audio from a wide range of coaches across all levels of football over an extended period of time. Pinpointing an NFL playoff pregame speech from one coach does nothing to put what he said into context at all. This is not fair journalism, nor is it accurate, nor is it contextual. This is what's called yellow journalism, and the messagner should be called out for his tactics.

The fact that you're buying into it means you're simply reacting in a knee-jerk manner to sensationalism.

I have to disagree here. You don't need a giant sample of coach speeches to put this in context. Wrong is wrong. If more coaches did it, they too would be wrong. Buddy Ryan would be wrong. And by "wrong", I mean against the rules set forth by the NFL.

And that wouldn't make me a knee-jerk reactionary if I buy into the author's stated motives or reasoning either, as far as I'm concerned. Some people you believe, some you don't. That's all there is to it. And since we'll never know the full truth when trying to determine motives, this whole speculative conversation will lead nowhere. Does he have an agenda? I don't think so. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. After reading the lengthy blog that accompanied it, I simply think the guy had his own reasons for doing what he did. His principles. Are they right or wrong? Nobody. I repeat. Nobody. Is qualified to speak intelligently on someone else's principles.

 

[superfan24]

He offered bounties in that audio (which is illegal--the very act of offering a bounty is illegal). He deliberately named specific injuries to go after and that included making hits in the pile.

You don't need a context for that. It is what it is.

It's enough. The rest is time-waste. He did the 2 things you can never do, openly and in public and it's on record.

Any effort to pretend like that's not damning is just going to fail.

Same with any effort to try and blame the messanger.

And of course on top of it Williams has already admitted to all of this, openly.

Please stop using the word "illegal". Williams did not break any law, he merely did not act in accordance with some internal operating rules setup by a private business. Big difference.

Agreed and a senator from my sometimes sad state of illinois is trying to take action on some kind of "illegal" action. Bunch of bullshit. This is a NFL problem that's it.

 

[-X-]

I don't like the word "illegal" either, because it sounds too sinister and dark. Overblown, even. But it still applies.

Definition of ILLEGAL
: not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also : not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)

 

[Thordaddy]

I wouldn't be totally sure it's not illegal, if a death occurred it would be held that it was and intent is a major factor ,injuries are inherent but intentional injuries are not and COULD be held as illegal depending a lot on a prosecutor and judge .

Whether a conviction would be upheld on appeal ardunno , but I get the idea jurisdiction could be a key factor.

 

[Ram Quixote]

All we need to know, in terms of this discussion, is whether he acted independently. And of course we know he did. It's only a "witchhunt" if the league released it. They didn't. It's not.

Sorry. This is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. This is a filmmaker, and we're only getting audio. It's edited to forward his stated agenda that Williams' (and other influential coaches) don't have the best interests of these young men in mind, unless wins is the absolute pedestal they say it is (as some fans insist as well).

I'm reminded of the 5 blind scholars trying to identify the elephant. Perhaps you're standing beside it, insisting it's a house. I'm holding the trunk, and it feels like a snake.

He offered bounties in that audio (which is illegal--the very act of offering a bounty is illegal). He deliberately named specific injuries to go after and that included making hits in the pile.

You don't need a context for that. It is what it is.

It's enough. The rest is time-waste. He did the 2 things you can never do, openly and in public and it's on record.

Any effort to pretend like that's not damning is just going to fail.

Same with any effort to try and blame the messanger.

And of course on top of it Williams has already admitted to all of this, openly.

I'm not referring to the context of Williams' speech. I don't dispute that he's goes too far with ACL's and concussions, the handing out of bounties. I'm referring to the context of the audio's release; that this is a filmmaker making edited audio only available. Your reasoning for that might be plausible, but the timing of it stinks of collusion with somebody. And that somebody is submerged with the rest of the iceberg.

However unlikely the truth about that ever coming out, I can't ignore the underlying manipulation.

 

[-X-]

I've not listened to the whole thing yet ,will later today but first thanks to The Dude for having me here.
My first post ,enough about me

I consider what I've heard thus far in the shorter edited version to be completely consistent with what I think Williams was banned for in the first place.

I coach HS wrestling and if I tape a wrist ,I tape both rather than call attention to a boo boo, IOW I think most contact athletes go after known injuries, the graphic nature doesn't shock me ,I've heard variations for 50 years. The Jr. high team I played on inflicted "incidental punishment" as a matter of course, and every team I played on did the same,it's not new,surprising, shocking, but that is not to say I condone anything .

I guess some people weren't as, let's say aware in the beginning that this is how it probably sounded.
It sounds like something out of "North Dallas Forty" and that was where my head went when I first heard of the Bountygate thang.

I get the idea whether Goodell feigns shock and outrage ,his imagination should have been vivid enough to connect the dots to expect this was the way things had been.

Thanks again Dude

Glad to see you found that activation email, T-Daddy. :sly:

Good reference to North Dallas Forty. There certainly are some similarities, but I have to wonder how many players smoked and drank in the locker room though. For real. And yeah, that audio wasn't really shocking. It was a little surprising that he would be so blunt about it, but I've listened to it a few times now (the condensed version eliminates a lot of inaudible stuff), and I've kind of decided that it can be interpreted a couple of different ways.

Let's take the line about the ACL, for instance.

1. He said to take out Crabtree's ACL - plain and simple. OR
2. He said, "Let's see how tough he is if he tears an ACL, because I think he's a primadonna and can't handle the toughness of this game." As such, he didn't tell the players to "do" anything.

This kind of all boils down to value judgements. For GW, he doesn't see anything wrong with it. He was mentored that way, and it was commonplace for him. For *some* fans and players, it doesn't mean anything either. Then for *other* fans or players, it's appalling and there's no place for it in this game. What I think is wrong, others will think is right. And vice-versa.

That's a whole lot of fence straddling by me, but that's the way I see it. I can't "officially" weigh in on this at all. Other than the fact that it is, indeed, "illegal" in this league for coaches to offer or give payments for performance benchmarks and/or hits of any kind (legal, illegal, incidental, whatever).

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting that they bleep out the names of the players who are collecting their bounties.

Yeah, he did that so as to not get particular players in trouble. That was done by the guy who recorded the audio.

Hypocritical.

Makes this look more like a witch hunt instead of a search for the truth.

Except it's neither.

This is the guy who made the tape acting independently.

If it were the league office that released this you might have a point.

And it works like this. He has no idea which players are in the sights of the league. And Williams has admitted wrong. If he includes a player's name he might get someone in trouble, which isn';t his intention. If he broadcasts Wms then all he has done is reveal what we already knew and what Wms has already openly admitted to.

Meanwhile it doesn't pay to act as if the league and the guy who made the tape are acting in unison or in partnership. The guy who made the tape is just posting a tape he has. That has nothing to do with the league office, which chances are knew nothing about this tape till he released it.

BS! This guy is NOT acting Indepently. He has an agenda, we just don't know what it is yet. A San Francisco filmmaker is not going to be independent, that ridiculous.

Acting independently does not contradict having motives.

We don't know his motives. For some that will mean they say "we actually really don't KNOW his motives." For some that will mean they say "they must be BAD motives." Shrug.

Meanwhile, his motives are irrelevant, and blaming the messanger is only just that. The stuff he posted was real, true, and revealed an issue with an NFL coach.

 

[Anonymous]

All we need to know, in terms of this discussion, is whether he acted independently. And of course we know he did. It's only a "witchhunt" if the league released it. They didn't. It's not.

Sorry. This is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. This is a filmmaker, and we're only getting audio. It's edited to forward his stated agenda that Williams' (and other influential coaches) don't have the best interests of these young men in mind, unless wins is the absolute pedestal they say it is (as some fans insist as well).

I'm reminded of the 5 blind scholars trying to identify the elephant. Perhaps you're standing beside it, insisting it's a house. I'm holding the trunk, and it feels like a snake.

He offered bounties in that audio (which is illegal--the very act of offering a bounty is illegal). He deliberately named specific injuries to go after and that included making hits in the pile.

You don't need a context for that. It is what it is.

It's enough. The rest is time-waste. He did the 2 things you can never do, openly and in public and it's on record.

Any effort to pretend like that's not damning is just going to fail.

Same with any effort to try and blame the messanger.

And of course on top of it Williams has already admitted to all of this, openly.

I'm not referring to the context of Williams' speech. I don't dispute that he's goes too far with ACL's and concussions, the handing out of bounties. I'm referring to the context of the audio's release; that this is a filmmaker making edited audio only available. Your reasoning for that might be plausible, but the timing of it stinks of collusion with somebody. And that somebody is submerged with the rest of the iceberg.

However unlikely the truth about that ever coming out, I can't ignore the underlying manipulation.

I'm not referring to the context either. In the tape, he offers a bounty (non-verbally) and then pays on bounties.

Anything can lead to conspiracy theories sure, if you want, but so what.

The tape is accurate or not. The motives of the messanger are irrelevant in comparison to that. Focusing on them (ie imagined motives) to me sounds like trying to find a way to diminish what the tape reveals. But that can't be done and so the efforts to dismiss it are just ineffectual.

 

[RamFan503]

That's a whole lot of fence straddling by me, but that's the way I see it. I can't "officially" weigh in on this at all. Other than the fact that it is, indeed, "illegal" in this league for coaches to offer or give payments for performance benchmarks and/or hits of any kind (legal, illegal, incidental, whatever).

I suppose maybe it's some fence straddling. But we may indeed find that it will be deemed illegal not only by NFL rules but by criminal and/or civil rule of law as well. If you put out a hit on someone, that's illegal. I don't care where you are. If you pay someone to maim another, that is illegal. If you break the rules of your sport (or occupation for that matter) you can be sued and/or prosecuted.

I don't think the other shoe has fallen here. That's part of the reason that I think if someone thinks this guy's tape or documentary is after the fact and has no bearing on the case, they are either being very naive or are ignoring the potential RAMifications so they can talk circles around it later.

 

[-X-]

That's part of the reason that I think if someone thinks this guy's tape or documentary is after the fact and has no bearing on the case, they are either being very naive or are ignoring the potential RAMifications so they can talk circles around it later.

Can you expand on that a little? I'm not sure I understand.
Maybe I'm a little fucked up (Pesci voice).

Bearing on what case? The investigation that already had punishment handed down? Or the appeals? Or something altogether different? Because I don't think it's going to make any difference. Somewhere in those 50,000 pages are going to be things very similar (or identical) to what we all heard. That's my take anyway.

 

[RamFan503]

Any effort to pretend like that's not damning is just going to fail.

Not sure anyone is doing that. Is that what you read into the responses here? I don't except for maybe one but maybe I'm overlooking it.

Same with any effort to try and blame the messanger.

Questioning someone's motives and why particulars were edited out is not the same as blaming the messenger. Saying the messenger has a definite motive - well maybe then.

And of course on top of it Williams has already admitted to all of this, openly.

No - I don't believe so. I haven't seen where he has admitted to paying his players to injure another player. If you do, I would like to see transcripts. I have asked that question before and no one has produced any quote from Williams admitting to exactly that.

As X said, he may have been referring to what ifs rather than saying, "take out Crabtree's ACL" for example. Most of the speech seemed to center around removing the opposing team's will. Aside from a few suspect statements, the rest was game speech 101. Did he really say to take shots in the pile? Not sure. Listen again. Sure sounds bad from what I heard. But has he ever admitted that is actually what he meant with those kinds of statements? I haven't seen it. If it's out there though, I'd like to. Maybe you can produce it.

 

[-X-]

Did he really say to take shots in the pile? Not sure. Listen again. Sure sounds bad from what I heard. But has he ever admitted that is actually what he meant with those kinds of statements? I haven't seen it. If it's out there though, I'd like to. Maybe you can produce it.

The main thing that I think will be difficult to explain away is when he said, "affect the head. touch the head. HIT the head." It was that last part (HIT the head) that kinda seals it as far as intent or motives is concerned. I really did try to *hear* that a different way, but to no avail.

 

[RamFan503]

That's part of the reason that I think if someone thinks this guy's tape or documentary is after the fact and has no bearing on the case, they are either being very naive or are ignoring the potential RAMifications so they can talk circles around it later.

Can you expand on that a little? I'm not sure I understand.
Maybe I'm a little fucked up (Pesci voice).

Bearing on what case? The investigation that already had punishment handed down? Or the appeals? Or something altogether different? Because I don't think it's going to make any difference. Somewhere in those 50,000 pages are going to be things very similar (or identical) to what we all heard. That's my take anyway.

Sure. There is already discussion of pending civil lawsuits arising out of "Bountygate". I heard the other day on a sports station that the DA in I believe Marin County is looking into potential criminal proceedings. Think about the hockey incident some years back. Why couldn't a similar action be taken here? In that case, no one even paid the guy to do what he did.

Also, it is my guess - just a guess - that the transcripts of this audio is in that 50,000 pages and could very well be some of the most damning evidence.

 

[-X-]

That's part of the reason that I think if someone thinks this guy's tape or documentary is after the fact and has no bearing on the case, they are either being very naive or are ignoring the potential RAMifications so they can talk circles around it later.

Can you expand on that a little? I'm not sure I understand.
Maybe I'm a little fucked up (Pesci voice).

Bearing on what case? The investigation that already had punishment handed down? Or the appeals? Or something altogether different? Because I don't think it's going to make any difference. Somewhere in those 50,000 pages are going to be things very similar (or identical) to what we all heard. That's my take anyway.

Sure. There is already discussion of pending civil lawsuits arising out of "Bountygate". I heard the other day on a sports station that the DA in I believe Marin County is looking into potential criminal proceedings. Think about the hockey incident some years back. Why couldn't a similar action be taken here? In that case, no one even paid the guy to do what he did.

Also, it is my guess - just a guess - that the transcripts of this audio is in that 50,000 pages and could very well be some of the most damning evidence.

Gotcha. Though, I'm not sure about that last part. Maybe not transcripts of that exact audio (that would be disappointing to me), but I can see accounts of similar speeches being in that report. I've never wanted to read anything that was over 500 pages. I'd read this thing twice though. Very fascinating.

 

[RamFan503]

Did he really say to take shots in the pile? Not sure. Listen again. Sure sounds bad from what I heard. But has he ever admitted that is actually what he meant with those kinds of statements? I haven't seen it. If it's out there though, I'd like to. Maybe you can produce it.

The main thing that I think will be difficult to explain away is when he said, "affect the head. touch the head. HIT the head." It was that last part (HIT the head) that kinda seals it as far as intent or motives is concerned. I really did try to *hear* that a different way, but to no avail.

I'm not going to sugar coat it. It sounds bad. But really... what do you want him to say to a locker room full of hopefully amped up warriors? "Affect the head, touch the head, psychologically do things to rattle their dural matter in such away that they feel like you hit them."? You think about who he is speaking to. Then think about what Deacon said.

Sorry but I firmly believe that what it all comes down to and what it may end up coming down to - unless the NFL can calm everyone with the belief that they are policing their own - is this... Did Williams or any other coach, player, etc... put a hit out on anyone - either with words or money. You can't tell your buddy to go out and take out your enemy's legs and not think there is something criminal if he does it. Pay him to do it? Fuhgetabout it.

 

[RamFan503]

I've never wanted to read anything that was over 500 pages. I'd read this thing twice though. Very fascinating.

Yeah - I'm there with yuh.

 

[-X-]

But really... what do you want him to say to a locker room full of hopefully amped up warriors?

Something else. "Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head. Early - affect the head. Continue, touch, and hit the head." Maybe it doesn't mean what I think it means. It would have to be a brilliant explanation though.

And not for nothin', but that entire room was eerily silent. During that whole speech, not a word. You could hear the guy taping, moving around in his chair. It wasn't until he whipped out the cash that everyone got vocal. At the risk of sounding like I'm completely full of shit, I'm just gonna say that I think those players were numb to that kind of rhetoric. As in, "Yeah, yeah, blow out knees, bang heads, whatever. Let's get to the payouts."

Anyway. Marty Schottenheimer (the king of cheezy speeches) got more amperage from his laughable pre-game speeches than I heard from that locker room. "I see a gleam, men! Let's go get the gleam!" And I'm 100% positive you wouldn't hear that talk from Dungy, Lovie, Asshole Face... not even Belichick, I'll bet. Dude's just a remnant from a bygone era. In my opinion, of course.

 

[RamFan503]

But really... what do you want him to say to a locker room full of hopefully amped up warriors?

Something else. "Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head. Early - affect the head. Continue, touch, and hit the head." Maybe it doesn't mean what I think it means. It would have to be a brilliant explanation though.

And not for nothin', but that entire room was eerily silent. During that whole speech, not a word. You could hear the guy taping, moving around in his chair. It wasn't until he whipped out the cash that everyone got vocal. At the risk of sounding like I'm completely full of shit, I'm just gonna say that I think those players were numb to that kind of rhetoric. As in, "Yeah, yeah, blow out knees, bang heads, whatever. Let's get to the payouts."

Anyway. Marty Schottenheimer (the king of cheezy speeches) got more amperage from his laughable pre-game speeches than I heard from that locker room. "I see a gleam, men! Let's go get the gleam!" And I'm 100% positive you wouldn't hear that talk from Dungy, Lovie, Asshole Face... not even Belichick, I'll bet. Dude's just a remnant from a bygone era. In my opinion, of course.

Yeah - I'm not really disagreeing with you. It sounds damning. But as freakish as it sounds, it may be just his style. I'm not defending him. As you know, I said it is time to move on and I still believe that. But this guy wasn't doing a rah rah, win one for The Gipper type speech. He was appealing to soldiers on the battle field. This was a serious telling to the guard - not meant to bring cheers and grunts from the audience. He clearly views this as anything but a game.

Hey - did you ever think about the fact that Marty's "Gleam" speech never got him a SB ring? Just sayin' :7up: