Thank the Gods for Goff and McVay

[den-the-coach]

Throwing the ball far really isn't arm strength. That's mechanics. Arm strength comes into play on plays such as:
1. Tight window throws from the pocket to the sidelines in the intermediate to deep range on out-breaking routes;
2. Throws where you don't have time to set your feet; and
3. Deep throw trajectory/arc.

Also throwing in inclement weather including windy conditions...Wentz will face that more often then Goff based on Geography alone, however, Wentz played in doors at North Dakota State, whereas Goff has played mainly on the West Coast.

 

[den-the-coach]

I have been impressed with Goff's ability to get us in the right play at the LOS (see the Austin TD against Seattle). I haven't seen that from Wentz, but admittedly, I haven't been watching the Eagles as closely.

Excellent point I have noticed that in Goff also, much improved & seems to have the confidence of the coaching staff to change the play at the LOS agree have not seen enough from Wentz, but by posting that I have not seen enough of Wentz is why maybe I'm not as critical, whereas, I have seen every play of Goff's NFL career.

 

[Ram65]

He has played well, though until the game against the (the 23rd ranked pass def.)
Cardinals,his numbers were not anything special.
Least not compared to Goff.
Goff hasn't had the huge game yet,but it's coming.

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The Eagles were 11 of 12 on third downs. They weren't all short yardage either.

I never cared about about Wentz but when I said a shakier offensive line that’s exacly what I meant, based off of pressures and sacks their pass protections has been shakier than the Rams. I’m definitely not rooting against Goff Just pointing out that both can do good and be good without bashing the other

Yes and No. Wentz tends to hold the ball too long at times. Earlier in the year Eagles HC Doug Peterson wasn't running enough and that created extra pressure. With more even play calling the Eagles offensive line is better. They changed OG too.

Do they throw in pads at combine?
Austin Davis had the same combine velocity as Goff, and no one is going to argue that Davis has a strong arm.
Combine stats suddenly matter? Somewhere out there a vindicated @LACHAMP46 is smiling.

Based off of the "eye test" Wentz throws a tight spiral and can throw a "laser " while on the run. Some of Goff's passes are a bit wobbly and a few of his throws on the run flutter and fail to reach their target.
Does this matter? No.

Don't like Goff's flutter ball. Wentz has them too though.

I think Goff has more arm talent, but I would say Wentz is more capable of playing with a lesser supporting cast because he can run around more and make plays with his feet.

The downside of that is he takes a lot of hits and could break down over time.

So basicly I am saying surround Goff with good talent and I think he will put up great numbers as he gains more experience. If they don't give him a line and playmakers he will struggle like Matt Ryan did for a few years in Atlanta before they rebuilt thst offense.

Winner! The running ability of Wentz can not be underestimated. He is amazingly strong in the trunk. He has some very good moves too for any runner. His fearlessness could be his down fall. That's the big difference so far even thou Goff has been moving well and getting out of trouble.

Hmmm.........I'm going to ignore Velocity because some posters used that statistic a few years ago for Austin Davis....Carson Wentz can throw the football further than Goff and again not saying Goff's arm is sub par at all, it's fantastic, but Wentz can throw the ball further.

Wentz does have a rocket. He isn't nearly as accurate right now on long throws as Goff. That's the knock on him here in Phila. Sometimes he simply throws to hard for the WR to catch the ball.

I disagree. I think they're playing at the same level. You still see a lot of good and bad in each. For example, Wentz gave Carolina the ball back late and a chance to win the game because he blew an easy read. Carolina tried to blitz him on a late third down but didn't bother to cover one of his WRs. Wentz forced it to the covered TE over the middle who couldn't pull in the low throw with a defender on his back instead of the wide open WR. Earlier in the game, Wentz took an unnecessary sack when he didn't audible the play to account for the blitz the Panthers were showing. He made some nice throws and plays, but his defense also set him up with great field position to score TDs off a couple turnovers.

I didn't see a QB in that game who was at all different from Goff in terms of development at this point in time. Both are making a lot of plays but still leaving some on the field. That's not surprising from second-year QBs. If anything, I've been highly impressed with Goff's ability to get us in the right play at the LOS (see the Austin TD against Seattle). I haven't seen that from Wentz, but admittedly, I haven't been watching the Eagles as closely.

Wentz has been audibling at the line of scrimmage. Getting a lot of praise for that from former players. Just heard that he even fakes some audible.

Neither are perfect. Wentz will make a bad INT by forcing the ball. He does hold on to the ball too long at times. He doesn't always make the right reads as you stated. He does make plays though with his arm. leg and head. He is a leader to. Goff has been making great throws and for the most part limiting mistakes. This week will be a big test after a shaky game last week. Goff needs to make some plays and get the win against the Jags

 

[FarNorth]

It's both a conclusion and an opinion from watching almost every single game both guys played in college and watching every single game Goff has played in the NFL (along with more than a handful of Wentz NFL games).

Yes, Wentz could have made that throw. Wentz has an insanely strong arm. He made multiple throws against Carolina while under pressure without his feet set that had serious mustard on them. He has one of the strongest arms in the NFL.

To compare them, Goff's arm strength is in the Brady tier. He has tremendous touch, he can make all the throws you need from a NFL QB, and he can zip it in when necessary if he's mechanically sound. Wentz's arm strength is in the Rodgers tier. He can zip it in even when he's mechanically unsound. He can make throws that maybe 3-5 other NFL QBs can make.

Wentz simply generates velocity effortlessly when throwing. Goff needs his lower body. Wentz doesn't.

It doesn't make Goff a lesser QB. I'm just being honest.

Why do I think the Combine velocity measurements are meaningless? There are four good reasons why:
1. The results don't align with the eye test;
2. QBs have admitted to not taking it seriously;
3. It doesn't mimic real football situations; and
4. It doesn't represent what arm strength really is.

Your view is based on eyeballing the quarterbacks; that's fine, and perhaps you're right, but it's a conclusion or perception, not an objective fact. I'm still not so sure.

I'm not defending the velocity test, just another metric which may or may not be accurate. However, if forced to choose between eyeballing and the metric, I might take the metric, or at least not dismiss it out of hand. Perhaps qbs at the combine don't take velocity seriously, however it is fair to point out that there are millions of dollars in contracts at stake with big differences between being a top pick and falling down the charts. None of the combine metrics reflect real game situations. Not sure there is a single metric or set of metrics on what comprises arm strength, but velocity (along with quickness of release) are certainly important factors in specific game situations, and I would say more so than distance.

My eyeball test is that the metric may be right. I'm just not sure Wentz could make the throws Goff did against Seattle at the end of the game, at high velocity on a rope into tight windows with not much time to deliver the ball. In fairness, I haven't seen as much of Wentz, but in the Washington game I watched him throw a few deep balls arcing up for grabs which could or should have been intercepted. I have not seen that from Goff and don't expect to. His throws are much more focused and seem to be as fast as needed-- sometimes very fast-- to get to the right spot on time. And Goff can throw on the run too. I am also fairly sure that, in two years, Goff will be 20-25 pounds bigger and much stronger-- he commented this year that he has gained 10-12 pounds every year since he was 12, and he is noticeably bigger than last year. So we'll see how he compares with Wentz when he is 25.

A separate comment: I like Wentz a lot, he is physically very talented and a smart guy. What strikes me is that Wentz is a physical player who wants to win the game physically. Goff is something different. I would say his approach to the game is cerebral-- coolness in the pocket, even keel emotionally, very much like another No. 16. Goff doesn't much self advertise his hard work, rapidly increasing grasp of the offense, or physical talents, either in comments or in his demeanor in the game. He shows his arm when he needs to make a play, not firing every pass at top speed. He was been widely underestimated in my opinion because his attitude and mental approach have been totally misunderstood. I think his physical skills have been underestimated as well. As he and McVay work together (and I think their chemistry was a big factor in bringing McVay to the Rams) I expect to see some extraordinary stuff from Goff and the passing game.

 

[GoodBadUgly]

Wow. A simple thread on how it is nice that I don't get into that debate in my mind about Goff over Wentz, nor have to listen to others debate the vast differences between them, and alas, page after page of Goff vs Wentz.

SIGH.

MY point is that I, and maybe one or two of my Rams Bros out there, feel thankful that the debate is actually debatable, as opposed to painfully obvious like it would have been if Goff had another season like his first.

I would have been fine having either and feel they'll both be solid, and maybe even Pro Bowl/HoF bound. I certainly wasn't feeling that way last season.

So again, Thanks Goff and McVay!

 

[Mackeyser]

How is it superior, because at the combine Goff clocked a stronger arm, and then they did a sport science video on arm strength between the two and Goff clocks the faster mph throw. I'm so sick of people talking without any facts backing them up. READ or do some research.

Okay.

I really like Goff, especially in this offense. I said all this when he was drafted... About how Wentz is only the pick if Fisher stays, that Goff has the higher ceiling and I'd take him in a minute if we had an offensive mind like Asshole Face, yadda, yadda, yadda. (and now with McVay, I'm even happier we have Goff over Wentz for a number of reasons)

But I gotta correct you because you keep saying the same wrong thing. It's physics so it's NOT a matter opinion.

Initial velocity is NOT the sole determinant of DISTANCE, which people typically conflate with "arm strength".

Now, I'll spare the board going through the physics of ball flight a THIRD time (at least), but can we stop perpetuating false narratives?

Here's the answer: Goff has a slightly faster initial velocity than Wentz (58mph to 57mph). Wentz, due to larger hands and slightly different mechanics gets better rotation on the ball. The trajectory (the derivative function of the change in height over the change in time...that's the oversimplified version) isn't just a matter of initial ball speed, but initial launch angle and the rotational stability of the ball which like a spinning top, not only keeps the center of gravity in the middle of the ball, but also reduces aerodynamic drag.

The end result is that if we measured simply "how far can each throw the ball in the air", Wentz has Goff by a few yards. Which is meaningless, ultimately. Almost never does a QB have to hurl the ball in excess of 60 yards in the air. Drew Brees could never do it and he's one of the most prolific QBs of all time.

Both young QBs seem to be tracking well to be the franchise QB that each franchise envisioned. Which is awesome for us because we have a QB for the next decade plus and many franchises are still looking.

Beyond that, I dunno what to say beyond... physics rocks, GO SCIENCE and GO RAMS!

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

You may wanna quit Den with your undercover Wentz boner... why is it so hard for you to let it go? Holy cow, you're doomed to the pit of misery with this narrative

Wentz is good, Goff will be better, accept what should by now be the obvious son

 

[Tailback]

Goff?
You didn't read last year's reviews?
It turns out Goff sucks and will never be an NFL quarterback and he was a waste of two draft picks.
Oh yeah, and Mannion should be starting.

You have got to read the reviews first before you thank God in a post.

I have an acquaintance thats a HUGE Rams fan. Has season tickets and flies from Portland, OR to LA for home games. He still thinks Mannion should be starting. Of course, he's a OSU Beavers fan also so you know he's delusional.

 

[A.J. Hicks]

I haven't watched any of Wentz this season. I know that he is enjoying a pretty successful season. Good for him. He was the guy I wanted initially but after studying Goff-he was my man.

Goff has had a few poor throws this season. But he's also had more than a handful of throws with unreal placement. Only his guy has a shot at catching the throw.

 

[LACHAMP46]

And yet we were one dropped pass away from winning it ...

yes....very true.
how we got to that point is of interest....to many....it may be a sign of something. Or it could be nothing.

 

[nighttrain]

yes....very true.
how we got to that point is of interest....to many....it may be a sign of something. Or it could be nothing.

as the season unfolds the truth will be known.
train

 

[Karate61]

Thank the gods were not comparing Wentz to guys like this:

 

[LACHAMP46]

Thank the gods were not comparing Wentz to guys like this:

You know he was ROY...maybe...1986???

 

[-X-]

You know he was ROY...maybe...1986???

 

[Karate61]

You know he was ROY...maybe...1986???

I think he came from the Canadian Football League; but my memory might not be correct, but I think so...