Some Balzer (discussion)

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Some Howard Balzer

all posts originally from the rampager listserv; formatted/edited by zn

BALZER: Very few were saying Spagnuolo was a bad coach last season and going into this year as the team was making progress. But this year, the roof falls in and it's on the head coach and many blame him. As I noted before, does anyone actually believe Gruden, Fisher, or whoever would have had a significantly better record this year with what has happened to this team? Lest anyone forget, the Titans were 6-10 last season.

The irony of it all is that had Jackson not been injured in the win over Dallas in 2008, the Rams probably would have won some more games, and Haslett would have been hired.

This year, there might be more head coaching changes than there have been in a while, as owners that shut down the game in March and didn't care whether their teams were prepared for the season, then fire coaches for not winning. Now, there will be numerous changes going into an offseason where the rules have changed and offseason programs/OTAs have been cut back. That means less time to learn systems.

Perhaps the big mistake Spagnuolo made was changing offensive systems in a lockout situation, but I've been told McDaniels was forced on Spagnuolo. Others have heard that, too.

Who would have forced McD on Spags and why?

BALZER: I have heard who it supposedly was, but I don't have enough to go public with that. The "why?" would be the non-football geniuses believed McDaniels could weave magic and be more explosive on offense without the talent to do that.

I wonder who among us will guess who will be the next McCarthy, Tomlin, John Harbaugh, Payton, etc.

BALZER: Not to mention Andy Reid, Mike Smith, Lovie Smith, Jim Schwartz, Gary Kubiak, etc., etc. What has Mike Shanahan done in Washington? The bottom line is this: Whoever is hired is a crapshoot, and most coaches that get to the point of being hired as head coaches are good coaches. So often, though, a lot of the results are out of a coach's control in a league where it's very difficult to win, and the injury factor is huge.

Assuming a change is made, I believe it should be someone that will run the offense. That way, there will at least be three years of offensive continuity with Bradford, and if it works, there will be even more continuity beyond the three years. I'd say Fisher if I knew who his offensive coordinator was going to be. I'd want it to be someone like Norv Turner that probably won't get hired away as a head coach after one or two years if the offense progresses.

As for "hot" assistants, the Carolina offensive coordinator, Rob Chudzinski, was the coordinator in Cleveland that actually made Derek Anderson look like he could play. He's done an excellent job in his first year with the Panthers. I do have to admit I don't know his personality or his head coaching leadership ability. A coach still has to have that. Linehan has proven to be a heckuva offensive coordinator, but he wasn't a good leader for the entire team.

what about AJ Smith? He had some very good drafts in SD, but also fired Mart Schottenheimer after a 14-2 season(!) and replaced him with Norv Turner(LOL) of all people. He also let Michael Turner and Darren Sproles walk and thoroughly alienated some players over contracts, notably Vincent Jackson.

BALZER: Smith is a strong personality that can rub people the wrong way, and the firing of Schottenheimer was about their personal relationship.

The guy I would consider is Scot McCloughan, who was the personnel man with the 49ers that built that team, but was let go because of some personal issues that I'm told he has corrected.

Chucky would definitely bring a lot of spotlight to the Rams and he would be a good choice IMO for the Rams and for Bradford.

BALZER: Gruden was hired to take over a winning program. He had a losing record after his first season and didn't win another playoff game. . His overall record after the Super Bowl years, including two opening-round playoff losses was 45-53. What quarterback(s) did he develop? Is that worth $6-$7 million a year? Gruden was not liked or respected by a lot of players. That could actually negatively affect free agency. Generally, coaches don't sell tickets.

Bucs 10-6 in 2010, bad season, so Dungy suddenly became a bad coach. Colts 26-10 under Caldwell before this season. Lose their quarterback, and several defensive players, and he also became a bad coach. As Vermeil often said, "I became a lot better coach when I got better players."Sports is an environment where there's a stunning amount of fire the coach mentality. I just hope those that subscribe to that have the same standards in their own jobs. But I doubt it.

Did he create buzz today with the shear rumor that the Rams would hire him? I say yes.

BALZER: Yes, you are right. It would create a buzz. I agree. What I should have said is, so what? Hiring someone for "the buzz" is not a good reason for hiring someone.

The scariest thing in all of this is that John Shaw is counseling Kroenke.

Without a name hire, the dome will be half full.

BALZER: The selling tickets deal is vastly overrated. Dome half full? So, about 25,000 tickets won't be sold without a "name" hire. I seriously doubt it. I wonder if Kroenke will want to spend $6-$7 million a year for five years on a "name" coach. Here's an interesting question: How many games do people realistically believe the rams would have won this year with the same team and the same issues they faced?

Heck, for the two years after having a Super Bowl teams, the Bucs under Gruden went 7-9 and 5-11.

I would prefer Fisher to Gruden. I just wonder who his offensive coordinator would be.

The last recycle HC hire the Rams chose with a name was Dick Vermeil

BALZER: And most everyone wanted him run off after two poor seasons.

He was an OC for two years and those who assume he'll open it up one day with better personnel are just guessing because there is little evidence of what he will or won't do.

BALZER: Actually, there is evidence with Shurmur. It's not guessing. When Clayton played, they threw the ball downfield to him. They obviously did to Alexander when he got on the field.

I think I would like to see a WCO back. Maybe that will change with who we sign/draft, but this team seems to play better on offense with a more controlled and tight offensive scheme. (too bad it can be soooo boring!)

BALZER: I am always intrigued when systems are labeled boring. Were the 49ers during their great times boring? Are the Packers boring? Were the Eagles during the last decade boring? Most of the time, offenses are boring because of the personnel. Better personnel and offensive line protection allows any system to open things up and be not boring.

Actually, the worst thing that might have happened to the Rams last season was Alexander making the big plays he did to significantly win three games. Had the Rams won four or five games and not challenged for the division title, it would have been viewed as decent incremental progress with a rookie quarterback and young offensive tackles. Shurmur might not have been hired as a head coach, and the offense would have stayed the same. Expectations wouldn't have been as high.

Just a thought.

Look at what martz did. but if you break it down. the rams went 10-6, 14-2, 7-9, 12-4, 8-8, and finally 5-11 in his last year. (i know that he was out part of his last season and vitt was the interim coach). the rams were on that slippery downward slope by 2005.

what is hardly mentioned is that martz inherited vermiel's team and if you look at those drafts from 97-99 and see all the players that the rams signed and kept which were integral parts of the championship team, then it's easy to see that after vermiel left, the rams made horrible personnel decisions

BALZER: Martz made some personnel mistakes. However, to pin it all on him is ignoring other things that happened.

* Management saying they couldn't afford to sign London Fletcher.

* Management saying safeties shouldn't be high draft picks, so Jimmy Kennedy was selected instead of Troy Polamalu.

* Letting Grant Wistrom leave because of a $500,000-$1M difference in a signing bonus

Those are a couple that immediately come to mind. In addition, Martz wanted the club to hire a pro personnel director and they wouldn't. He did take some flyers on some guys (Crouch, Travis Scott) that didn't work. However, most of the later-round picks are done by the scouting department. Very rarely does a head coach have much say over those picks. There were also numerous good picks.

Whatever he did doesn't come close to the horrors of the drafts with Linehan/Zygmunt. That's more the reason than any why the team is where it is now. Look at successful teams and you will see players in that 5-8 experience range that came in the draft. But the Rams have hardly any of them (Jackson, Bartell). The 2006 and 2007 drafts were brutal for the Rams, especially '06 when they had five picks in the first three rounds and none are with the team. Only Dominique Byrd is even in the league, only because he was signed this week by the Redskins. But he has done nothing in the league.

In 2005, BTW, the Rams were 6-10, and they were 2-3 when Martz got sick. After that, Bulger got hurt, as did Jamie Martin, and they had to start Ryan Fitzpatrick. Bulger had a 94.4 passer rating when he was injured. Bruce was also injured for a six games that season.
 

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All of that makes too much sense and echoes a lot of the things I've been saying and/or thinking. It's nice to hear (see) some sense and sensibility once in a while amidst a sea of self-appointed fan expertise. Sometimes it's just too much, and the fan fixes are far too pervasive. Whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. Whoever said it, I like the idea of Tony Dungy, but he's probably out of the game right now. Anyway, thanks for posting that. I lurk the listserv once in a while, but had to take it off my phone recently. It's been blowing up my mailbox.
 

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I agree with Balzer. Hire Fisher.
 

Ram Quixote

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X said:
All of that makes too much sense and echoes a lot of the things I've been saying and/or thinking. It's nice to hear (see) some sense and sensibility once in a while amidst a sea of self-appointed fan expertise. Sometimes it's just too much, and the fan fixes are far too pervasive. Whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. Whoever said it, I like the idea of Tony Dungy, but he's probably out of the game right now. Anyway, thanks for posting that. I lurk the listserv once in a while, but had to take it off my phone recently. It's been blowing up my mailbox.
You're welcome.

There was an article sometime in the last 2-3 years regarding HCs and their age. The gist of it was that HCs past 55, IIRC, don't win many SBs. Obviously, Vermeil beat those odds with the Rams, but not with KC, and Dungy was pushing the odds when he retired.
 

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As for "hot" assistants, the Carolina offensive coordinator, Rob Chudzinski, was the coordinator in Cleveland that actually made Derek Anderson look like he could play. He's done an excellent job in his first year with the Panthers. I do have to admit I don't know his personality or his head coaching leadership ability. A coach still has to have that. Linehan has proven to be a heckuva offensive coordinator, but he wasn't a good leader for the entire team.

Its interesting to see him bring up Chudzinski here. I fully expect his name to be mentioned a lot this offseason for the vacant HC jobs.
 

Selassie I

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JdashSTL said:
steferfootball said:
The scariest thing in all of this is that John Shaw is counseling Kroenke.
:shock: Oh dang.

Selassie wont like this. :cheese:


The 30+ year recurring nightmare continues. Apparently winning football games is NOT Stan's top priority. How comforting :amped:
 

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Selassie I said:
JdashSTL said:
steferfootball said:
The scariest thing in all of this is that John Shaw is counseling Kroenke.
:shock: Oh dang.

Selassie wont like this. :cheese:


The 30+ year recurring nightmare continues. Apparently winning football games is NOT Stan's top priority. How comforting :amped:

Naw it's worse than that.

What it looks like is that he DOES want to win games.

AND he listens to Shaw.

I know, there's a disconnect there.

Which means the real problem is different from the one you named.

SK apparently treats Shaw like family. Probably because JS has made him money. SK speaks of JS as an old friend, as family kind of, and treats JS like his consigliere.

Given that, I find the online definition of "consigliere" to be both pertinent and amusing: "The consigliere is a close, trusted friend and confidant, the mob's version of an elder statesman."

The difference is, in a real mob war, a bad consigliere gets you killed. In the NFL, it just gets you still profitable losing seasons.
 

Selassie I

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The Church of The Living $ seems to be the chosen place of worship for Stan. Shaw is the priest taking his confession.


We're thinking the same way zn.
 

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Selassie I said:
The Church of The Living $ seems to be the chosen place of worship for Stan. Shaw is the priest taking his confession.


We're thinking the same way zn.

No, we differ.

SK *believes* Shaw is the real deal.

SK wants to win. He just also at the same time believes in Shaw.

It's a contradiction but since when is that new in the world.

He does not see Shaw for what he is.

Neither did Chip, btw.
 

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RealRamsFan said:
He made some good points.....but at the end of the day Spags has made poor adjustments, poor evaluation of players when deciding his 53 man roster, and has yet to correct the penalties , that has killed us, in his 3 years here.

If Spags was a proven HC I personally would have more patience with him.....similiar to the patience I had with Vermiel..... But Spags isn't proven as a HC and we have no idea if we can trust him to lead this team to a winning franchise.

What has Spags done as a HC that shows ANYONE that he is worth keeping? Getting 11 wins in 47 tries while 7 of them came in a very soft schedule?

Its time to get a proven HC.....and Balzer (A well documented homer) said the following about Gruden;

His overall record after the Super Bowl years, including two opening-round playoff losses was 45-53. What quarterback(s) did he develop?

Well Spags record is 11- 36 and ZERO playoff appearences.....and whatt QB has he developed? Thus far we've seen Sam take a step back from his rookie season.

My guess is if Gruden was a Rams HC, Balzer would be a HOMER for him.....

In short, back to my original question.....

What has Spags done as a HC that shows ANYONE that he is worth keeping?

And I already know they weak respose of "Team didn't quit on him" will be the main rebuttal.....so I will counter with this...The team don't play well with him either. So lets try to find another reason
Look. Dude. If you want to rally for another coach, that's fine. But if you're going to KEEP ignoring the things that have made him (and would make any other coach in the world) struggle to field a winner, then you're going to be of little use to this place. How YOU would develop a roster and how YOU would "discipline" players is akin to me saying how *I* would cut a diamond when examining a wedding ring stone.

And taking shots at the entire board (-weak response-) isn't going to fly either. I personally think your "magic wand" approach to remedying the situation is the opposite of strong, but I don't throw it out their to discredit your entire argument. I suggest you do the same going forward.
 

Selassie I

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zn said:
Selassie I said:
The Church of The Living $ seems to be the chosen place of worship for Stan. Shaw is the priest taking his confession.


We're thinking the same way zn.

No, we differ.

SK *believes* Shaw is the real deal.

SK wants to win. He just also at the same time believes in Shaw.

It's a contradiction but since when is that new in the world.
I call it BLIND FAITH.

He does not see Shaw for what he is.

Neither did Chip, btw.
 

Selassie I

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Using this phone isn't the easiest ....

Again - I call it BLIND FAITH.

The super privileged usually have a very small "circle of trust". Once someone gains entry into this exclusive group , they apparently become lifetime members. The elite live in a sheltered fantasy world ,,,, their trusted "friends" are so few that they are never questioned.


I wish someone in The Dome this Sunday would hold up a banner stated the truth in bold letters .....

Stan ! THIS MESS HAS BEEN PERPETUATED BY JOHN SHAW.
JOHN SHAW IS THE DIRECTOR OF DYSFUNCTION!!! Wake up Enos
 

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RealRamsFan said:
I thought my post was very fair and balance
Well then you thought wrong.

By asking which QB Spags has developed, you completely ignored the fact that Gruden fancies himself a QB developing expert. What earthly good did it do you to ask what QB Spags has developed? Obviously you're transferring valid criticism of Gruden onto Spagnuolo where it absolutely doesn't apply. McDaniels was a QB coach, and it was HIS responsibility to game plan around Bradford's strengths and develop him/protect him. But, that's yet another way for you to cast Spagnuolo in a bad light. By giving him phantom failures. At most, Spagnuolo made the wrong decision by hiring McDaniels, but we're not even sure it was his decision alone anyway. It's the same thing as asking (and I wouldn't do this) what Gruden did to build a defense after Dungy left? It wasn't his job. Kiffen was the defensive coordinator.

You also continue to say he's a poor evaluator of talent, yet you have no idea if that's the case at all. You, among others, continue to point to players let go and yet can't ever provide an example of how that was a bad decision. Gilyard, Avery and some 7th rounders? Either you know what they're capable of (which lends to my statement that you think you can do it better), or you're throwing darts. If Spags can develop undrafted free agents, and keep them on the roster "developing", then there has to be something valid about THAT. If he can cycle through 11 different corners and get them playing fairly well, then he has to have an eye for THAT too. Or does he just have "poor evaluation of players" when a fan favorite like future HOF wide receiver Gilyard gets the boot?

And no, you don't account for variables. At all. Despite what you say. "Getting 11 wins in 47 tries" is only a look at the record and nothing else. You prove that over and over again everytime you say that. And now we can add a soft schedule to the mix. I guess a hard schedule means nothing either if you're going to be consistent. If you think a "proven head coach" could have had this team playing over its heads despite all that has happened, then yes, you do have a magic wand.

Finally, keeping a team together that has been decimated by injuries and offers little to no production on offense under the guidance of a perceived offensive wizard, IS something Spagnuolo has done well. Whether or not you think it's weak is irrelevant. It happened. Hell Linehan couldn't keep the team together while they were winning. Every player I've heard interviewed has said they believe in the plan and they know they're building something. But you apparently think they're all weak for saying so as well, so what else can anyone add to that? You've made up your mind, and that's fine. But don't hide behind "I'm rallying behind the Franchise" while shooting arrows at the guy who was trying to give us all what we were hoping for.

Penalties. :roll: You know the 49ers are among the leaders in penalties and the Colts are among the least penalized. What does that tell you? Harbaugh should be fired, and Caldwell should get an extension? You're picking nits in favor of ignoring the bigger picture. How many penalties have been the result of rookies learning the nuances of the NFL or players jumping offsides? A lot. I guess they don't beat that into the players' skulls every single practice either. Naw, that's just Spagnuolo being a bad coach.
 

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RealRamsFan said:
Spags made more bad decisions than good....that's probably why when I ask what have Spags done to show he is a coach to lead a bad team into a competitive one, it goes unanswered
Oh, you don't get an answer to a loaded question? Wonder why that is.

Done talking to you, man. All I get from you is lip service about everything other than records.
 

steferfootball

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zn said:
Selassie I said:
JdashSTL said:
steferfootball said:
The scariest thing in all of this is that John Shaw is counseling Kroenke.
:shock: Oh dang.

Selassie wont like this. :cheese:


The 30+ year recurring nightmare continues. Apparently winning football games is NOT Stan's top priority. How comforting :amped:

Naw it's worse than that.

What it looks like is that he DOES want to win games.

AND he listens to Shaw.

I know, there's a disconnect there.

Which means the real problem is different from the one you named.

SK apparently treats Shaw like family. Probably because JS has made him money. SK speaks of JS as an old friend, as family kind of, and treats JS like his consigliere.

Given that, I find the online definition of "consigliere" to be both pertinent and amusing: "The consigliere is a close, trusted friend and confidant, the mob's version of an elder statesman."

The difference is, in a real mob war, a bad consigliere gets you killed. In the NFL, it just gets you still profitable losing seasons.
Well guys, I hung around during the 2-95 streak. But I think it is time for a new team. :mrgreen:
 

Lesson

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RealRamsFan said:
X said:
RealRamsFan said:
Spags made more bad decisions than good....that's probably why when I ask what have Spags done to show he is a coach to lead a bad team into a competitive one, it goes unanswered
Oh, you don't get an answer to a loaded question? Wonder why that is.

Done talking to you, man. All I get from you is lip service about everything other than records.



THats my point...a question to what have a HC done in 3 years to show that they can be a successful HC (minus the not losing the team) should never be a "loaded" question....but simple one for a qualified HC.


EX: What have Fisher done to show he can be a successful HC

In 16 years as a HC he only has had 6 losing seasons.
A 54% win pct
Coached in 11 playoff games
11 of the 16 years defense was in top 15
12 of the 16 years offense was in top 15

Afer taking a 2-14 team he went on to a 23 and 25 record the next 3 years.....this team was competing while rebuilding

two years later the 2-14 team was in Super Bowl.



You say Im wrong for saying this team is lacking talent to compete
You say Im wrong for saying this team is lacking the HC to compete

So to you team have the talent and the HC and the variables are the culprit to the 10 wins in 3 years....to the 2 divisional wins in 3 years....to the losing by more than 10 points a game.....to each its own.

Maybe the Rams are cursed....I choose the believe its talent and coaching. Lets just wait and see what the owner and TRUE evaluator think......does he hire a witch doctor :boing: or an experienced HC

its all good


First off, what do you mean top 15 in offense/defense? Points score and points allowed? Or offensive yards and defensive yards allowed?

Jeff Fisher is Schottenheimer part two. Fisher is a mediocre coach who went to the Super Bowl once in 16 years.

Spagnuolo has improved the team here. I believe that. But come on, look at the injuries. You can't ignore them.
 

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RealRamsFan said:
X said:
RealRamsFan said:
Spags made more bad decisions than good....that's probably why when I ask what have Spags done to show he is a coach to lead a bad team into a competitive one, it goes unanswered
Oh, you don't get an answer to a loaded question? Wonder why that is.

Done talking to you, man. All I get from you is lip service about everything other than records.



THats my point...a question to what have a HC done in 3 years to show that they can be a successful HC (minus the not losing the team) should never be a "loaded" question....but simple one for a qualified HC.


EX: What have Fisher done to show he can be a successful HC

In 16 years as a HC he only has had 6 losing seasons.
A 54% win pct
Coached in 11 playoff games
11 of the 16 years defense was in top 15
12 of the 16 years offense was in top 15

Afer taking a 2-14 team he went on to a 23 and 25 record the next 3 years.....this team was competing while rebuilding

two years later the 2-14 team was in Super Bowl.



You say Im wrong for saying this team is lacking talent to compete
You say Im wrong for saying this team is lacking the HC to compete

So to you team have the talent and the HC and the variables are the culprit to the 10 wins in 3 years....to the 2 divisional wins in 3 years....to the losing by more than 10 points a game.....to each its own.

Maybe the Rams are cursed....I choose the believe its talent and coaching. Lets just wait and see what the owner and TRUE evaluator think......does he hire a witch doctor :boing: or an experienced HC

its all good
<sigh>

Listen, "bro." I've said all I'm going to say on this subject of whether or not Spags is a bad coach. This is no less than the 7th time we've rehashed the same argument, and I'm not going to subject the board to further debate over it. You can "to each his own" your way through a million arguments if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're only seeing half the picture. If even.

Understand this. According to you, a team is an extension of the head coach. You've said it a million times. Well, guy, this board is an extension of its owner. There are several posters here who share your *beliefs* and they don't inundate the rest of the membership with scarcely relevant statistics to try and "prove" that Spagnuolo is a bad coach. That's ALL you do here. If you've made 10 posts on anything else, I'd be amazed. If they weren't obviously made to deflect your agenda to begin with. So, in short, you're done with this.

As am I.

I'm not trying to convince ANYBODY that Spagnuolo is a great head coach. My only purpose has been to shed some light on the things that have gone horribly awry while he was trying to build a team specific to his vision. Not once did I tell you that you're wrong for thinking he's bad. I'm only telling you, and everyone else who cares, what went wrong during his plan. Speculating about his incompetence relative to discipline, roster development, player evaluation and in-game decisions are just that. Speculations. Everything else I've been saying to date has actually transpired.

Now go ahead and paint the PD with posts about how bad Spagnuolo is as a coach and tell everyone there how your numbers "prove" something. You'll get a ton of support there due to the mob mentality that has taken over that forum. But here, it will always be met with resistance or a respectful silence. And there's a reason for that. How you don't understand that is still pretty damn odd.
 

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zn said:
Some Howard Balzer

all posts originally from the rampager listserv; formatted/edited by zn

EXPANDED...NEW IN BLUE.

BALZER: I did an interesting look at the 49ers roster today and the Rams. The 49ers have had 30 players play in all 15 games and 12 have started all 15. The Rams have 12 that played all 15 and four starters. Last year, by the way, the Rams had 22 guys play all 16 games, of which 11 were starters.

no other team in the nfl changed their offensive system right?

BALZER: I could name numerous teams that struggled when they changed systems. It is also about talent, and I dare say even with a change for the Rams the offense would have been better if they had a Steve Smith (Carolina) or A.J. Green (Cincinnati). The 49ers' offense isn't very good. They win with defense.

it's the coaches fault we signed all of these over the hill free agents.
it's the coaches fault that we drafted jason smith.
it's the coaches fault that this team has scored a touchdown a game.


BALZER: The first two items are not the coach's fault. He doesn't sign free agents or make decisions in the draft. The third one, if it's the coach, is the offensive coordinator. But anyone with eyes can see the issues the Rams have on offense is personnel.

from "On the Eagles-Steve Spagnuolo thing"

December, 27, 2011
Dan Graziano

Finally, everyone I speak to says that Spagnuolo is still very well regarded as a coach by NFL decision-makers, in spite of his lack of success in St. Louis. There will be competition for his services, and a couple of people to whom I've spoken have even suggested to me he could possibly get another head coaching opportunity right away.

BALZER: Have heard this, too. NFL people realize what happened here this year, even if the fire-the-coach-mob likes to call them excuses and blame everything on the coach.

Jim Thomas in his chats seemed to imply he has knowledge of Kroenke hiring a team president, but obviously he couldn't reveal more. Is this something that you're aware of? Thanks.

BALZER: Have heard rumblings, but nothing definitive. I've also heard it might be a non-football person, which would make little sense.

***