Should we bring them back?

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ozarkram

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I have been watching some interesting programs lately. And there seems to be a real race on to bring back the Mammoth. I know the Japanese are working on it and a Geneticist from Harvard. No matter how cool I find the science and the thought of seeing a live Mammoth. Should we, should we just because we can? I mean its world no longer exists not really, elephants teach their young how to be elephants. There will be nothing here to teach it how to be a mammoth. And if we do should we also bring back the cave lion and the short faced bear so they will have something to play with? I realize it will be a type of hybrid but then where does it end? Tasmanian tiger anyone or made a Dodo is more your thing?
 

Dodgersrf

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No. Leave eco systems alone.
Ask Florida how they're doing with the Anaconda, which isnt a native species.

Now, if someone can completely eliminate the house fly. I'm down with that.
 

Selassie I

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No. Leave eco systems alone.
Ask Florida how they're doing with the Anaconda, which isnt a native species.

Now, if someone can completely eliminate the house fly. I'm down with that.


Florida is mostly fine with my anaconda... it's the Burmese pythons that have become a major problem. :whistle:
 

Elmgrovegnome

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No. Why recreate something that won’t have a suitable habitat to live in? Recreating it just for the sake of doing it may be a good science experiment but the animal would have a dismal existence.

I’d rather see scientist genetically revolve a bird species back into a small raptor. Supposedly it would be a huge leap to accomplish
 

coconut

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Yes bring the wooly mammoth back. I bet they are tasty!
 

Selassie I

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I have been watching some interesting programs lately. And there seems to be a real race on to bring back the Mammoth. I know the Japanese are working on it and a Geneticist from Harvard. No matter how cool I find the science and the thought of seeing a live Mammoth. Should we, should we just because we can? I mean its world no longer exists not really, elephants teach their young how to be elephants. There will be nothing here to teach it how to be a mammoth. And if we do should we also bring back the cave lion and the short faced bear so they will have something to play with? I realize it will be a type of hybrid but then where does it end? Tasmanian tiger anyone or made a Dodo is more your thing?


In the interest of science I think we absolutely should... not just because we can. We will learn things that we weren't even thinking about after we do. The info may lead to major breakthroughs elsewhere... we can't afford not to flip over all the rocks.

The moral dilemma about the 1st one growing up "alone"... considering the amount of time a baby elephant stays with it's mom... could be a negative. I assume that the baby mammoth would have to be raised by humans. That has been done with elephants... but obviously only with working elephants or zoo elephants. Many see it as inhumane... but many cultures see it the opposite way. What is correct??? Well, that really can't be answered. The animal would be given the best care possible and it would never have to fear predators like it would in the wild... the trade off of coarse is it would be a captive animal (probably for life). Maybe down the road when there are a number of them... they could be reintroduced to the wild. It's a big maybe I'm sure, but probably possible. The nonhuman predators they used to have to deal with are long gone... so maybe their lack of input from their moms wouldn't be as troubling.

I have been amazed by my animals many times when it comes to instincts. I have witnessed my animals doing things from instinct that are pretty complex on multiple occasions. Both my parrot and my dogs have fascinated and amazed me with behaviors that could only be performed from instinct when they were very young. DNA holds more info than we really know. It has even been claimed recently that actual memories can be passed on from parents to their offspring through what we used to call junk DNA... and this is way more than just the instincts I mentioned before. And again, I've witnessed some amazing behaviors from my captive pets with my own eyes. I'm not gonna bore you with those things... but if you're interested in me sharing some of those I will gladly do so. I find that sort of thing completely amazing, but I realize that not everyone else does lol.

The other thing about bringing that particular animal back that many probably won't consider. Those poor guys weren't hunted to extinction like most believe. There is real proof now of a major cataclysm that happened about 12000 years ago that basically caused the end of the Ice Age. It was a comet or big asteroid that struck the North American continent. It basically broke up into smaller very big pieces that hit the earth in different places... not just in North America, but that was the main impact area. There have just been 2 different impact craters discovered in Greenland or Iceland underneath the ice (with the aid of satellite imagery) that date back to this 12000 year mark. These poor animals... and many other very large mega fauna animals of that time were eliminated due to this event. It wasn't because they were evolutionarily mistakes... their entire line was basically wiped out like the dinosaurs. No fault of their's or their DNA. That's very different than a species becoming extinct because of it being flawed and passed by by better more evolutionarily superior species. This is another reason that I personally would welcome species from that time period being brought back... especially the mammoth. Tiny pockets of their kind managed to somehow live through the cataclysm... and I'm sure that there are places on this planet where they could still possibly survive and maybe even thrive. Maybe if enough were successfully brought back with a diverse enough genetic line... a group could be reintroduced to the wild. That may seem far fetched... but I really have a feeling that much of their instincts and possibly even memories will still be with them.
 

ozarkram

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No. Why recreate something that won’t have a suitable habitat to live in? Recreating it just for the sake of doing it may be a good science experiment but the animal would have a dismal existence.

I’d rather see scientist genetically revolve a bird species back into a small raptor. Supposedly it would be a huge leap to accomplish
Sorta like back engineering an alien spacecraft if I follow you.
 

ozarkram

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OK we have an unsure,interesting ,no and kill all house flies, a get your snakes straight, a no, a how do they taste, and a yes. Now lets says we make the leap and it is successful. Do we now bring back Abe Lincoln or George Washington or Nero if possible. And by all means share any animals stories I have many myself.
 

Selassie I

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OK we have an unsure,interesting ,no and kill all house flies, a get your snakes straight, a no, a how do they taste, and a yes. Now lets says we make the leap and it is successful. Do we now bring back Abe Lincoln or George Washington or Nero if possible. And by all means share any animals stories I have many myself.


Are you asking me to share the instincts stories I mentioned?
 

Selassie I

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@ozarkram

OK... so I'm going to give you 2 different examples of instinct that I witnessed 1st hand with two different pets of mine. I feel like these examples are a little more than instinct. These were in my mind (along with others too) when I said what I did earlier about the mammoths.

Just remember,,, you asked for this. LOL


The first one will be something from my parrot. I have a male Vosmaeri eclectus. I hand fed him from the day after he hatched out of his egg. So, he never spent any time with his parents or even other parrots. All he knows... he's learned from living with us and our dogs through the years (He'll be 13 next month).

Something I discovered early on in his life was that he loved to eat chicken. That may seem kinda cannibalistic... but believe it or not, many birds seek out protein and actually will go to town on it when presented with the opportunity. He loves fried eggs too but that's another story that I won't get into.

Early in his life I would give him pieces of chicken all the time. It was obvious that he really enjoyed it. I would just pick off a human bite sized piece of my chicken and give it to him... it was always just the meat at first. Then, one day I had made a mountain of chicken wings... there was a big bowl of the discarded wing bones that still had scraps of chicken meat attached to the them. I decided to just put a small handful of these bones into Rasta's bowl and let him pick the meat off of them rather than just throw them straight into the trash. I knew he would love to eat the chicken meat.

Well,,, I was very surprised at what I saw almost immediately after I gave him these bones. He was sitting on his perch on our bar area right next to where we were eating. I was watching him closely since I had never given him a chicken bone like this and I wanted to see what he would do. He's normally very timid and nervous about anything he's never seen before. When I put these wing bones in his bowl... he stared at them for a minute or so without touching them. I figured he was freaked out and wasn't going to eat the meat because they looked so different from what he was used to. That's not what happened.

After staring at them for at least a minute... he then lurched down and grabbed one of the chicken wing bones in his beak. I was really surprised to see him do this because it was such a new thing for him. So now I'm expecting him to start eating all of the chicken meat off of the bones since he loves it so much. That's not what happened at all though. Instead, he grabbed the first bone he could and proceeded to crack the thing open with a precision that I thought must have been an accident. He is not the kind of parrot that chews, some are big time chewers of everything... but he never does. He split this chicken wing bone perfectly in half. Then,,, he ate out the bone marrow like a lion on a fresh kill. I had never seen him eat anything in his life with this kind of extreme savagery. It was almost shocking. He then cracked every single bone in his bowl with the exact same precision and consumed all the the bone marrow like it was his last meal.

He had never seen this behavior from anything in life. He instantly bypassed the chicken meat that he loves and went straight for the marrow by cracking the bone like he had been doing it for his whole life. I can still remember how fascinated I was by his immediate actions to these bones that he had never been exposed to in his life. Bone marrow is a "super meal" for animals in the wild. Somehow he knew this all on his own.



My second example happened with my dog/pup. We have a new dog who is about 15 months old now. We got him from a very well known breeder who basically has a giant second house for her breeding dogs and pups. Super high end operation. These dogs are pampered big time. This second "house" isn't a house that was built for humans... it was built for the dogs... but it is nicer than many people's homes. So our boy spent the 1st 8 weeks of his life there with his mother and the breeder and nobody else or outside noises or interference... they are isolated from almost everything but the momma and breeder.

We picked him up from there as soon as he turned 8 weeks old and brought him to his real home. So, we've been his only real parents and we've exposed him to almost everything for the 1st time.

At our house... almost no one ever comes through our front door. All of our friends and family come through our garage. We almost never get unexpected guests... and as a result... our front door is almost never a point of entry for anyone. That means nobody,,, and I mean NOBODY,,, ever rings our doorbell. It never happens.

So one day we are all in the living room watching TV. Our pup is on the couch with us and he is probably about 4 months old at this point. A commercial comes on the TV and has a doorbell ring as part of the commercial. My dog has NEVER HEARD a doorbell in his entire life. This doorbell sound came directly from the TV... and the TV is now where close to, or in the direction of, my front door. It was perfectly clear that the doorbell sound came directly from the TV and that is the opposite direction from my front door. My dog reacted in a very strange way immediately after hearing this doorbell....

He leaped up immediately and let out this weird bark that we'd never heard him use before, ran to our front door, and started jumping up against it while barking in this new weird way. He somehow instantly knew that the doorbell sound meant that someone was at our front door (THIS WAS HIS FIRST TIME EVER HEARING A DOORBELL SOUND). He was acting like he wanted to go through the front door to get at whoever might be on the other side. This dog is the sweetest dog ever... he wouldn't do anything except greet a perfect stranger like his long lost best girlfriend and kiss them to death. We simply couldn't believe his reaction to this sound it was so out of character.

Meanwhile... there is no one at our front door at all. It's just the sound of a doorbell coming from the opposite end and direction of the house. But Judah runs "screaming" for the front door and doesn't stop until we open the door to show him there is nobody there. It was really fascinating to watch happen. We all still laugh about that because we saw it happen. He somehow instantly knew that a doorbell sound meant someone was trying to come into our house through the front door. A sound that he had never heard before from a door that is almost never used. That shit was somehow in his brain from birth,,, no other way to explain it.


That was the short version of both stories btw. LOL.
 

coconut

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@ozarkram

OK... so I'm going to give you 2 different examples of instinct that I witnessed 1st hand with two different pets of mine. I feel like these examples are a little more than instinct. These were in my mind (along with others too) when I said what I did earlier about the mammoths.

Just remember,,, you asked for this. LOL


The first one will be something from my parrot. I have a male Vosmaeri eclectus. I hand fed him from the day after he hatched out of his egg. So, he never spent any time with his parents or even other parrots. All he knows... he's learned from living with us and our dogs through the years (He'll be 13 next month).

Something I discovered early on in his life was that he loved to eat chicken. That may seem kinda cannibalistic... but believe it or not, many birds seek out protein and actually will go to town on it when presented with the opportunity. He loves fried eggs too but that's another story that I won't get into.

Early in his life I would give him pieces of chicken all the time. It was obvious that he really enjoyed it. I would just pick off a human bite sized piece of my chicken and give it to him... it was always just the meat at first. Then, one day I had made a mountain of chicken wings... there was a big bowl of the discarded wing bones that still had scraps of chicken meat attached to the them. I decided to just put a small handful of these bones into Rasta's bowl and let him pick the meat off of them rather than just throw them straight into the trash. I knew he would love to eat the chicken meat.

Well,,, I was very surprised at what I saw almost immediately after I gave him these bones. He was sitting on his perch on our bar area right next to where we were eating. I was watching him closely since I had never given him a chicken bone like this and I wanted to see what he would do. He's normally very timid and nervous about anything he's never seen before. When I put these wing bones in his bowl... he stared at them for a minute or so without touching them. I figured he was freaked out and wasn't going to eat the meat because they looked so different from what he was used to. That's not what happened.

After staring at them for at least a minute... he then lurched down and grabbed one of the chicken wing bones in his beak. I was really surprised to see him do this because it was such a new thing for him. So now I'm expecting him to start eating all of the chicken meat off of the bones since he loves it so much. That's not what happened at all though. Instead, he grabbed the first bone he could and proceeded to crack the thing open with a precision that I thought must have been an accident. He is not the kind of parrot that chews, some are big time chewers of everything... but he never does. He split this chicken wing bone perfectly in half. Then,,, he ate out the bone marrow like a lion on a fresh kill. I had never seen him eat anything in his life with this kind of extreme savagery. It was almost shocking. He then cracked every single bone in his bowl with the exact same precision and consumed all the the bone marrow like it was his last meal.

He had never seen this behavior from anything in life. He instantly bypassed the chicken meat that he loves and went straight for the marrow by cracking the bone like he had been doing it for his whole life. I can still remember how fascinated I was by his immediate actions to these bones that he had never been exposed to in his life. Bone marrow is a "super meal" for animals in the wild. Somehow he knew this all on his own.



My second example happened with my dog/pup. We have a new dog who is about 15 months old now. We got him from a very well known breeder who basically has a giant second house for her breeding dogs and pups. Super high end operation. These dogs are pampered big time. This second "house" isn't a house that was built for humans... it was built for the dogs... but it is nicer than many people's homes. So our boy spent the 1st 8 weeks of his life there with his mother and the breeder and nobody else or outside noises or interference... they are isolated from almost everything but the momma and breeder.

We picked him up from there as soon as he turned 8 weeks old and brought him to his real home. So, we've been his only real parents and we've exposed him to almost everything for the 1st time.

At our house... almost no one ever comes through our front door. All of our friends and family come through our garage. We almost never get unexpected guests... and as a result... our front door is almost never a point of entry for anyone. That means nobody,,, and I mean NOBODY,,, ever rings our doorbell. It never happens.

So one day we are all in the living room watching TV. Our pup is on the couch with us and he is probably about 4 months old at this point. A commercial comes on the TV and has a doorbell ring as part of the commercial. My dog has NEVER HEARD a doorbell in his entire life. This doorbell sound came directly from the TV... and the TV is now where close to, or in the direction of, my front door. It was perfectly clear that the doorbell sound came directly from the TV and that is the opposite direction from my front door. My dog reacted in a very strange way immediately after hearing this doorbell....

He leaped up immediately and let out this weird bark that we'd never heard him use before, ran to our front door, and started jumping up against it while barking in this new weird way. He somehow instantly knew that the doorbell sound meant that someone was at our front door (THIS WAS HIS FIRST TIME EVER HEARING A DOORBELL SOUND). He was acting like he wanted to go through the front door to get at whoever might be on the other side. This dog is the sweetest dog ever... he wouldn't do anything except greet a perfect stranger like his long lost best girlfriend and kiss them to death. We simply couldn't believe his reaction to this sound it was so out of character.

Meanwhile... there is no one at our front door at all. It's just the sound of a doorbell coming from the opposite end and direction of the house. But Judah runs "screaming" for the front door and doesn't stop until we open the door to show him there is nobody there. It was really fascinating to watch happen. We all still laugh about that because we saw it happen. He somehow instantly knew that a doorbell sound meant someone was trying to come into our house through the front door. A sound that he had never heard before from a door that is almost never used. That crap was somehow in his brain from birth,,, no other way to explain it.


That was the short version of both stories btw. LOL.

Fascinating examples especially the parrot. BTW knowing what I know now if I was your neighbor I'd be ringing your door bell after waking up at 3 AM to pee on your bushes. :D
 

ozarkram

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@Selassie I Thank you for that. I too found the part about the bird interesting because I have very little practical experience with them. Reminded of something I saw several years ago about deer eating nesting birds. They caught it on film and as I remember it also had something to do with the need for protein. I have always believed in a collective consciousness in humans, call it instinct if you like. And it goes all the way back to the beginning. An example being you walk into a situation and without prior knowledge know something is wrong. Hair on your neck and arms stand up,you sweat for no reason, you get goosebumps. Everyone is different but you get my drift. It has served me well over the years and don't know why animals couldn't be the same way.
 

1maGoh

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I don't understand the "destroy the ecosystem" argument. I read this thread a few days ago and took a while to collect my thoughts, so I don't remember if someone made this argument.

Anyway. Isn't the whole thing about evolution that the ecosystem will adapt to changes and a new order or species or whatever will arise? The Earth will survive. It just won't look the same. But who are we to say that the Earth should always look the way we remember it? If we didn't come along it would continue to change and whatnot anyway.

Freak it. Bring them back. Release them on every continent. See where they survive.

And for the love of all that's holy, kill the freaking mosquitos. All of them.
 

LesBaker

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@Selassie I the part about Rasta is fascinating. I wonder why he stared at the wings for a bit before diving in..........maybe the smell of the sauce made him hesitate.
 

Selassie I

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@Selassie I the part about Rasta is fascinating. I wonder why he stared at the wings for a bit before diving in..........maybe the smell of the sauce made him hesitate.


Well... it couldn't be that. Parrots do not feel the effects of even the world's hottest peppers. They are immune to the stuff in peppers that make them hot to us. I'm not Google'ing it right now... but I think it's called caspian or something like that. Anyway... these bones really didn't have any sauce left on them... just little scraps of chicken meat that I was sure he would want to pick off of the bone and eat.

The really weird part is that he almost never has any level of comfort when he sees anything new. It's obviously a survival trait/instinct to be way over cautious. I'll give you a quick example... last week I bought him a new toy for his cage. The toy was very similar to a toy that he had just broken. Anyway,,, he won't go near it and he almost won't come out of the door on his cage that it hangs next to... I don't make it easy on him, I've just ignored his obvious fright by telling him that I'm not opening your main door... come out that way or stay in your cage like a chicken. So,,, it's been funny watching him creep by this plastic toy (it's a paper role dispenser that holds a small roll of paper like a calculator... not a monster... and he had one almost exactly like it before but it was a different color) like he is about to be killed.

When I gave him these wing bones... it was the 1st time he had ever seen them. They were inches away from him. His normal reaction would have been to fly to the other end of our house looking for his brother (our old dog) to protect him. Cammy and I were absolutely shocked that he didn't flip out and immediately take flight. We were then sitting there with our jaws on the ground when he grabbed a bone and cracked it perfectly down the middle with absolute precision. The entire bone was split down the middle like it was sawed from tip to tip the long way.

He had never seen a chicken bone,,, much less watched anyone or anything split one down the middle to expose the marrow.
 

Selassie I

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I'm kinda surprised that you guys aren't also just as interested in what my new dog's reaction was the very 1st time that he ever heard a doorbell sound.

He had NEVER even heard a doorbell. He hears a doorbell sound from our television on some commercial. Jumps up and runs to the opposite end of the house and completely away from the actual sound so that he could jump all over the front door. There was absolutely no way in hell for him to associate the doorbell sound with our front door. He had never... and I mean NEVER... heard the sound of a doorbell in his entire life before that day.