Scott Wells out for the remainder of the season

[…..]

You guys do realize that a top tier guard is going for twice the amount we are paying Dahl? 4 million is not breaking our bank.

 

[V3]

I see your logic but you have to pay the price for top talent. We might hit on a draft pick, or we might miss. The more I see of Dahl the more I believe he's worth what we pay him. All the weapons in the world aren't worth Jack if the qb is always on his back.
Wells I agree needs to go. Even at his best this year he wasn't above average imo.

Dahl isn't that good at pass-pro. His forte is run blocking.

 

[Ky Ram]

Dahl isn't that good at pass-pro. His forte is run blocking.

I disagree with that- respectfully. I see him as above average at both and tend to think k his pass blocking is actually his strongest area. We all want to save money and hate seeing guys injured but you just don't find talent lime Dahl every day. Add to that the intangibles like leadership and that nasty tough streak and you have yourself one heck of a ballplayer.

 

[Ky Ram]

It's your viewpoint so it can't be "wrong". My eyes tell me that our run blocking success hinges a lot more on who the TE is and which side of the one he's on than anything else. JMO.

 

[BonifayRam]

I don't know whether CW or Shelly is the better player but I frankly don't like either one as a starter. The improvement seen when Saffold started playing guard illustrates the step down in quality between him and the other two.Not all of us think it's a bad thing to go into next year without Wells and Dahl. I'm of the opinion that it could be a good thing but Saffold is the key to where we go with the O-line.Of course I also want to draft both an OT and an OG at some point in the draft with one of them in the first or second round.

Both Wells & Dahl are soon coming up on 33 yrs old Alan. They are the Rams most experienced OL'ers who the Rams brought in and purchased from UFA'cy to help form a solid OL cadre the last two seasons. Oddly their injury history the last two yrs is very similar. Center Scott Wells went in for a knee clean out & it turned out to be much more extensive in early 2012. He missed all of TC & most of all pre season. He played on that bad knee for one full quarter of football before breaking his foot on the same injured leg. Wells had another surgery to repair the foot and went on IR for 11 wks missing 9 games Wells came off IR after the bye. On his first practice back from the broken foot Wells hurt the same knee he had surgically repaired earlier this time he has cartilage damage but he decided to play on the damaged knee. Right after the 2012 season concluded ....Wells went back under the knife on that same knee. So in just 2012 Wells started 7 games finished 5 and missed 9 games and underwent three surgeries in less than 7 months! 2013 started real rough for Wells but by mid season the OL was improving Wells has sub run blocking skills but makes up for his weakness with smarts. Wells breaks ankle early in 9ers game & with 4 games left is sure to go on IR for the second straight season.

Harvey Dahl last two seasons has been brighter than Wells...Harvey started @ ORG in 2012 after starting @ ORT late in 2011. Harvey finished 13 games but injury hit & he was placed on IR with torn Biceps missing most of 4 remaining games in 2012. In 2013 Harvey was having issues in his power run blocking & in general low performance. Things started getting better for him but in game 9 he injured his knee & has been out ever since with a grade 3 MCL strain. Harvey last three injures have been a surgically repaired Achilles/Ankle in 2010, Torn Biceps in 2012 & now a MCL in 2013. Harvey has returned to some limited practice but is still not ready to return to play.

The results of Wells & Dahl 2012/2013 may show some cracks in this OL two well-seasoned & costly vets. Wells two seasons as a Ram is ... have started & completed 16 games & missed 13 full games & parts of 3 others. He has been on the IR twice. Dahl 2012/2013 seasons has started & completed 19 games missed 8 games & parts of 2 others been on the IR and is still not returned to full duty yet.

Wells struggles a lot in run blocking & sad to say Dahl has had his issues this season in run blocking too. Dahl is over 6-6 & after a very big meal he may come close to 305 pounds....Dahl is far more prototype body for a ORT than a ORG. He was replaced by Rodger Saffold who is a little over 6-4 and has beefed up well over 330 pounds since leaving the OLT behind. Remember the bettlejuice comments on Saffold on his photos in late TC with the other Ram Ol'ers....Saffold is much better in the run blocking area than Dahl currently but both are good @ pass blocking presently from the ORG post. Saffold makes Joe Barksdale who is 6-4 326 pounds look skinny. Dahl's thin frame does permit some of the bigger stronger lower to the ground DT's to manhandle Dahl. we have all seen those games too & Dahl still fighting every inch of the way backwards.

 

[fearsomefour]

I agree with this statement. I have wondered the same thing about how they grade. They have graded Quinn out well vs the run….he is better this year certainly. From what I can gleen they are grading on tackles for loss. This does not account for how many times a DE runs up high and doesnt contain or how many times a guy is driven 4 yards off the line. That is speculation on my part but there are only so many ways to measure it and who knows how sutble their grading system is. If a G is pulling and a LB stops to avoid a hit and the RB runs right past him that is as effective as the G engaging the LB….how is that sort of thing graded because in effect the G "missed" his block if the LB stopped.
I like Dahl, he is a scrapper, but he is not super skilled in my estimation.

 

[fearsomefour]

You guys do realize that a top tier guard is going for twice the amount we are paying Dahl? 4 million is not breaking our bank.

The average salary for the top 5 Gs in 2013 was 4.9 M. The top two guys are way up there but then it dropps off to Dahl range pretty quickly. If the Rams were to tag Saffold the question I have is are Gs different than Ts with the franchise tag. If so, that means Saffold would cost $5M, if not then over $9M. I dont think Dahl pay is out of line, but, could we find a better player at the same cost or through the draft?

 

[BonifayRam]

Dahl isn't that good at pass-pro. His forte is run blocking.

Harvey has been known for years for his toughness, playing past the whistle & run blocking skills .......me thinks his age & injuries may have change that forever. His pass blocking has been more successful this season in the 8 games he started. Just my opinion. Harvey was purchased $$ as a UFA to bring & add run blocking effectiveness to the Rams OL in 2011 forward..... Harvey has been a good UFA purchase for the Rams IMO but going forward in this last yr of his 4 yr contract...Harvey could be a decent to very good back up for the right side @ both ORG & ORT posts. Seeing Saffold performance @ ORG in Harvey's absence clearly brings light on Harvey's decreasing run blocking ability. Paying Harvey 4 million to be a back up is very costly. I would not bring back Harvey or Wells if Saffold could be signed up!

 

[V3]

Harvey has been known for years for his toughness, playing past the whistle & run blocking skills .......me thinks his age & injuries may have change that forever. His pass blocking has been more successful this season in the 8 games he started. Just my opinion. Harvey was purchased $$ as a UFA to bring & add run blocking effectiveness to the Rams OL in 2011 forward..... Harvey has been a good UFA purchase for the Rams IMO but going forward in this last yr of his 4 yr contract...Harvey could be a decent to very good back up for the right side @ both ORG & ORT posts. Seeing Saffold performance @ ORG in Harvey's absence clearly brings light on Harvey's decreasing run blocking ability. Paying Harvey 4 million to be a back up is very costly. I would not bring back Harvey or Wells if Saffold could be signed up!

I'm warming up to that last part. I'm still worried about Saffold's durability, though.

 

[Alan]

BonifayRam with premium quality information as usual:
Both Wells & Dahl are soon coming up on 33 yrs old Alan. They are the Rams most experienced OL'ers who the Rams brought in and purchased from UFA'cy to help form a solid OL cadre the last two seasons. Oddly their injury history the last two yrs is very similar. Center Scott Wells went in for a knee clean out & it turned out to be much more extensive in early 2012. He missed all of TC & most of all pre season. He played on that bad knee for one full quarter of football before breaking his foot on the same injured leg. Wells had another surgery to repair the foot and went on IR for 11 wks missing 9 games Wells came off IR after the bye. On his first practice back from the broken foot Wells hurt the same knee he had surgically repaired earlier this time he has cartilage damage but he decided to play on the damaged knee. Right after the 2012 season concluded ....Wells went back under the knife on that same knee. So in just 2012 Wells started 7 games finished 5 and missed 9 games and underwent three surgeries in less than 7 months! 2013 started real rough for Wells but by mid season the OL was improving Wells has sub run blocking skills but makes up for his weakness with smarts. Wells breaks ankle early in 9ers game & with 4 games left is sure to go on IR for the second straight season.

Harvey Dahl last two seasons has been brighter than Wells...Harvey started @ ORG in 2012 after starting @ ORT late in 2011. Harvey finished 13 games but injury hit & he was placed on IR with torn Biceps missing most of 4 remaining games in 2012. In 2013 Harvey was having issues in his power run blocking & in general low performance. Things started getting better for him but in game 9 he injured his knee & has been out ever since with a grade 3 MCL strain. Harvey last three injures have been a surgically repaired Achilles/Ankle in 2010, Torn Biceps in 2012 & now a MCL in 2013. Harvey has returned to some limited practice but is still not ready to return to play.

The results of Wells & Dahl 2012/2013 may show some cracks in this OL two well-seasoned & costly vets. Wells two seasons as a Ram is ... have started & completed 16 games & missed 13 full games & parts of 3 others. He has been on the IR twice. Dahl 2012/2013 seasons has started & completed 19 games missed 8 games & parts of 2 others been on the IR and is still not returned to full duty yet.

Wells struggles a lot in run blocking & sad to say Dahl has had his issues this season in run blocking too. Dahl is over 6-6 & after a very big meal he may come close to 305 pounds....Dahl is far more prototype body for a ORT than a ORG. He was replaced by Rodger Saffold who is a little over 6-4 and has beefed up well over 330 pounds since leaving the OLT behind. Remember the bettlejuice comments on Saffold on his photos in late TC with the other Ram Ol'ers....Saffold is much better in the run blocking area than Dahl currently but both are good @ pass blocking presently from the ORG post. Saffold makes Joe Barksdale who is 6-4 326 pounds look skinny. Dahl's thin frame does permit some of the bigger stronger lower to the ground DT's to manhandle Dahl. we have all seen those games too & Dahl still fighting every inch of the way backwards.

Very well said Bonifay! We've (if my memory serves me correctly) been predicting this outcome for the last few years. I think both of us recognized the very good skill set and abilities that they both brought to the table. But, unfortunately, age has caught up with them. Some posters looking back at yesteryear think that O-line players have been able to perform at high levels into their late 30s. I think it's a mistake to assume that still holds true. Steroids (and the larger stronger players) have, for the most part, insured that players can no longer handle the extra girth and muscle they've built up much past the age of 30. Some can escape this outcome but they are the exceptions to the rule IMO. It doesn't matter how good you are at your job if you can't stay on the field.

Now that many of our other holes have been addressed it's time for us to put some serious resources into this problem. Of course we now have another serious area of concern with the DB situation. That also must compete for what resources we have available. It's vital that they address both of these problems IMO and I can't wait to see what they decide to do about it.

 

[BonifayRam]

I don't know whether CW or Shelly is the better player but I frankly don't like either one as a starter.
Alan I am of the opinion that the younger still growing Shelley Smith has much more upside. I also think that Shelley is much better when used on the run...Shelley pulls super quick & usually hits & blocks well on the move. Shelley is no longer under 300 pounds...think he is over 310 pounds now.... Its evident that he has spent long hours in the weight room probably next to Saffold to gain power. I would also add that Shelley looks more comfortable @ OLG than ORG. CW has been given every chance in the NFL world to find a OL post to play and perform it well....after six past seasons the results have been the same....the weak link!

The improvement seen when Saffold started playing guard illustrates the step down in quality between him and the other two.
Alan I look at this way...its not that Shelley is a bad or poor OG but its because Saffold can be a great future all pro type OG. Saffold is that good!

Not all of us think it's a bad thing to go into next year without Wells and Dahl. I'm of the opinion that it could be a good thing but Saffold is the key to where we go with the O-line.
We have had many discussion this past month on Rodger Saffold...I know of no ROD'mer who would not want Saffold signed to a long term contract to be a starting OG @ the same time also being the swing OT for Barksdale & Long until a newly drafted swing OT is up to speed. If I were Snead & Fisher I would be working on a new deal with Rodger Saffold that he can not resist.

Of course I also want to draft both an OT and an OG at some point in the draft with one of them in the first or second round.
I like jrry32 recent mock draft where he mocked drafting two OT's (one in the 1st rd. & the other in the 3rd rd.) both with the abilities to be the swing OT & also play inside if required!

 

[Alan]

BonifayRam with additional info:
I haven't seen jrry32's mock (I refuse to look at mocks until after the season is over) but I'm not sure I understand the logic of drafting two swing OTs. I can see possibly drafting one multipurpose OT (in the 3rd round) but I'm of the opinion that if you draft a player who can do both positions pretty well they can't do either one of them extremely well. Each position requires a slightly different skill set to excel IMO. If I'm going to use a first round pick on an O-line player I want him to be, potentially, a monster at either OG or OT. Not having researched anything yet, without looking I'd prefer to draft a LG in the 1st round and a swing OT in the third round. If I was going to draft a swing OT at all.

I hope jrry32 responds to this post and clarifies his thinking on this. He's probably thinking about an aspect of the situation I'm overlooking.:slap:

 

[CGI_Ram]

If there is a silver lining to elimination; it's evaluation of youth.

Go Tim Barnes!

 

[Alan]

Or Jones after he muscles up this winter.

 

[fearsomefour]

If there is a silver lining to elimination; it's evaluation of youth.

Go Tim Barnes!

Very true. I liked Barnes in the preseason. Most of the depth lineman were, frankly, a disaster. Barnes holds his own in pass pro and doesnt get pushed around in the run game. That said, I havent seen him get much push in the run game either. If he can play well it may be smart for the Rams to sign him up before FA period begins as he may end up doing the Rob Turner treatment. I dont know if he is a guy you would want starting 16 games at a very important OL position but certainly can be a good depth guy. C is a position where it is tough to find really good players, if Barnes accounts himself well there will be teams going after him this off season.
It will be interesting to see how he does with a full week of starter snaps in practice. I also want to see if he can get to the second level in the running game effectively. Wells, while a bit of a shadow of his old self, was still getting to the LBs in a decent manner.

 

[F. Mulder]

I honestly think we are looking at 3 new starting OLers next year. Now 1, maybe 2, may already be on the roster but that is still a significant change if it happens.

 

[fearsomefour]

Mulder….really depends. I just realized Barnes is an exclusive rights FA, so, good chance he will be back. If the Rams do the conservative thing (which I believe they will) Long, Wells, Dahl, Barksdale are all back and the LG spot gets filled from within….either with Barnes, Jones, Smith or a draft pick. They could release Wells and Dahl and with Williams and Saffolds money off the books that frees up about $10.3M. Problem is it leaves the Rams so thin on the Oline some of that would almost have to be reinvested back into the line. The prospect of starting multiple rookie Olineman does not appeal to me. Tagging Saffold will cost a lot and is a one year fix. The money saved by releasing Wells ($4) and Dahl ($4) would have to be spent on one player (maybe not all of it) to provide an upgrade at either spot. I would like to see an overhaul of the interior line with Saffold moving to RG and a FA additional at LG. Keep grooming Jones to replace Wells and have Barnes and Smith for inside depth and draft a T or two. But, I just dont see the team spending the money it would take to keep Saffold and sign an upgrade at LG.

 

[BonifayRam]

Mulder….really depends. I just realized Barnes is an exclusive rights FA, so, good chance he will be back. If the Rams do the conservative thing (which I believe they will) Long, Wells, Dahl, Barksdale are all back and the LG spot gets filled from within….either with Barnes, Jones, Smith or a draft pick. They could release Wells and Dahl and with Williams and Saffolds money off the books that frees up about $10.3M. Problem is it leaves the Rams so thin on the Oline some of that would almost have to be reinvested back into the line. The prospect of starting multiple rookie Olineman does not appeal to me. Tagging Saffold will cost a lot and is a one year fix. The money saved by releasing Wells ($4) and Dahl ($4) would have to be spent on one player (maybe not all of it) to provide an upgrade at either spot. I would like to see an overhaul of the interior line with Saffold moving to RG and a FA additional at LG. Keep grooming Jones to replace Wells and have Barnes and Smith for inside depth and draft a T or two. But, I just dont see the team spending the money it would take to keep Saffold and sign an upgrade at LG.

fearsomefour ...Snead & Fisher do have some options not all bad if the current OL looses due to UFA ....Saffold the starting OT & OG for four seasons & Starting OG for two season Chris Williams are big HOLES to fill. The OLG post can be filled buy Ram young vets OL'ers like Shelley Smith who has played in 22 Ram games & started 7 games, or Tim Barnes who has played in 27 Rams games & now is our starting OC...so both of these Ol'ers can fill the loss of CW @ OLG. Other Ram OL'ers Barrett Jones, Mike Persons & Brandon Washington would back fill in behind Smith & Barnes. The bonified real concern is @ OT! Rams do not have a legit replacement for Saffold. It would be smart to also discuss the fact that Joe Barksdale is a UFA after the 2014. When you include that element you see why I continue to be @ odds with ROD'mers who see no great OT needs as we sit here with a traditional pocket passer QB, who has been hurt for most of 3yrs of his last 5 yrs. Outstanding Protection is critical for Bradford. A OL that can run the ball as well pass protect all goes into this Sam protection element.

Its clear to me this team should be highly concentrated in on the OT prospects in this upcoming 2014 draft not OG's. Rams Org. must look forward for real possibility of the loss of both current Ram OT's ...Saffold in 2014 & Barksdale 2015 to the open lucrative $$ UFA market. This draft has the looks that it will have to immediately fill the massive shoes of a Saffold & then also be grooming the replacement for Barksdale.

F. Mulder thinks we will have 3 vacant starting Ol posts? Guess the release of ORG Harvey provides 4 mil and the release of OC Scott provides 4.5 cap savings...8.5 mil & the hole from CW @ OLG must be the 3rd vacancy. That's would mean the Ram entire interior OL. Gues the OL would like :

OLT- J.Long........ 29-8.... 6-7/320
OLG- S.Smith...... 27-4.... 6-4/310
OC- T.Barnes .....26-4.... 6-4/309
ORG- B.Jones .......24-2... 6-5/308
ORT- J.Barksdale. 26-4... 6-4/325

Leaving Mike Persons & Brandon Washington as reserves

 

[Alan]

BonifayRam with something I missed the first time:
Alan I am of the opinion that the younger still growing Shelley Smith has much more upside. I also think that Shelley is much better when used on the run...Shelley pulls super quick & usually hits & blocks well on the move. Shelley is no longer under 300 pounds...think he is over 310 pounds now.... Its evident that he has spent long hours in the weight room probably next to Saffold to gain power. I would also add that Shelley looks more comfortable @ OLG than ORG. CW has been given every chance in the NFL world to find a OL post to play and perform it well....after six past seasons the results have been the same....the weak link!

I can barely read the quotes because of the small font and the fact that it's all in italics so I missed this the first time. It's really good to hear that Shelly has put on some weight and muscle (I hope) because what I really disliked about his play in the past was that we has been extremely susceptible to the bull rush. Even from lesser DTs. If that aspect of his game has improved dramatically then I might modify my position on him. Maybe. I still see him as merely a good LG/RG backup. Very valuable to have but he shouldn't be starting IMO. Do you see him as starter quality or merely superior to CW?

F. Mulder with a slightly pessimistic at the O-line:
I honestly think we are looking at 3 new starting OLers next year. Now 1, maybe 2, may already be on the roster but that is still a significant change if it happens.

I'd really like to see us keep Saffold at RG next year and just replace Wells and Shelly as starters. But as you're prophisizing, it's very possible we won't be able to afford Saffold. That won't be good IMO.