Schottenheimer

[Memphis Ram]

Sure there has been execution issues, but I was really hoping the Rams moved on from Schottenheimer this offseason when Norv Turner was available. From what I understood, just like Gregg Williams, that's who Fisher wanted as OC when he first came to St. Louis, but Turner got an unexpected final year as HC in San Diego.

Schottenheimer shows the same play calling issues Jets fans said when they pointed out how he can get a bit pass happy and abandon the running game when it's working, IMO. People give him credit, but Rex Ryan dialed him back the same way Jeff Fisher has had to with the Rams.

Anyway:

- As stated in another thread, where are the back shoulder passes? Austin Pettis would be outstanding there.

- If WRs are having trouble separating, why are they limiting the use of bunch WR formations so much?

- Austin on a fake end around keeps defenders honest vs. the run. Why didn't we see this more?

- Did we ever even run that Jet Sweep Austin made a living on in college?

- Why does Jared Cook always have to line up in the slot? The guy is 6'5" & has a 40+" VJ. Line him out wide some.

- Has he pushed for a legit FB capable of lead blocking AND carrying the rock? When the RB motions out of the backfield everyone knows a pass is coming when Harkey or Kendricks remain in the backfield.

- Is it just me or does the team stop running plays that work well sometimes? Shouldn't they make them stop it first?

- Do tackle eligible plays have to be limited to goal line stands? One year I remember the Packers would almost do it all the way down the field until the opposing teams to stopped them.

- We don't have former Missouri QB Brad Smith, but what happen to mixing in an occasional WildCat type play a couple times per game? Is there not anyone on the roster capable? At least give defense something else to prepare for during the week.

- Fisher may not like the hurry up, but does that mean they always have to huddle up? From time to time, couldn't they call a couple of plays in a huddle and immediately line up the the next formation afterwards? They don't have to rush the snap, but just doing that would keep defenses honest.

I could go on an on and on.

 

[CGI_Ram]

Sure there has been execution issues, but I was really hoping the Rams moved on from Schottenheimer this offseason when Norv Turner was available. From what I understood, just like Gregg Williams, that's who Fisher wanted as OC when he first came to St. Louis, but Turner got an unexpected final year as HC in San Diego.

Schottenheimer shows the same play calling issues Jets fans said when they pointed out how he can get a bit pass happy and abandon the running game when it's working, IMO. People give him credit, but Rex Ryan dialed him back the same way Jeff Fisher has had to with the Rams.

Anyway:

- As stated in another thread, where are the back shoulder passes? Austin Pettis would be outstanding there.

- If WRs are having trouble separating, why are they limiting the use of bunch WR formations so much?

- Austin on a fake end around keeps defenders honest vs. the run. Why didn't we see this more?

- Did we ever even run that Jet Sweep Austin made a living on in college?

- Why does Jared Cook always have to line up in the slot? The guy is 6'5" & has a 40+" VJ. Line him out wide some.

- Has he pushed for a legit FB capable of lead blocking AND carrying the rock? When the RB motions out of the backfield everyone knows a pass is coming when Harkey or Kendricks remain in the backfield.

- Is it just me or does the team stop running plays that work well sometimes? Shouldn't they make them stop it first?

- Do tackle eligible plays have to be limited to goal line stands? One year I remember the Packers would almost do it all the way down the field until the opposing teams to stopped them.

- We don't have former Missouri QB Brad Smith, but what happen to mixing in an occasional WildCat type play a couple times per game? Is there not anyone on the roster capable? At least give defense something else to prepare for during the week.

- Fisher may not like the hurry up, but does that mean they always have to huddle up? From time to time, couldn't they call a couple of plays in a huddle and immediately line up the the next formation afterwards? They don't have to rush the snap, but just doing that would keep defenses honest.

I could go on an on and on.

^ this.

The lack of back shoulder passes is frustrating!

And... You've said it perfectly; this is a "one or the other" offense. For whatever reason it seems we never blend aspects of game plans.

 

[SaneRamsFan]

Rule of thumb-If the offense or defense is executing the plays in a competent manner but still sucks the coordinator will get fired. Every time.

 

[den-the-coach]

Never been a fan of anyone with the last name of Schottenheimer. Brian Schottenheimer is not going to out scheme anyone nor outscore anyone either. However, his game plans are solid if the running game is working that's the key to his offense and they can't turn the ball over.

Schottenheimer other issue is that when a play works, he'll go back to it not once, not twice, but three times a lady. Pettis at the goal line for example, but there were some good plays last year running Austin & Bailiey for example. Overall, he's not the worst, but all of us would sleep better at night with somebody else as OC.

That being posted is he a good match for the Head Coach? Because we all remember how much all of us wanted Josh McDaniles as OC back in 2012 and how did that work out? Here's my opinion of the rest of the Offensive Coaching Staff.

Rob Boras (Tight Ends)...Like coach Boras good history and the Rams have seen have seen improvements in Corey Harkey and others, however, need more consistency from Cook.

Paul T. Boudreau (Offensive Line)...Love coach Boo was upset when he left the first time and he's done wonders with a cast of castoffs and this team should now be ready to be one of the best offensvie lines in the NFL.

Frank Cignetti (Quarterbacks)....Cignetti has had success in the college ranks and seemed to get as much out of Kellen Clemens as anybody did. Reunited with Shuan Hill and a good prospect in Gilbert, however, all of us want Bradford to takea step forward and my hope is that one day Cignetti will be the offensive coordinator.

Ray Sherman (Wide Recievers)...Sherman has been very successful, but not here in the Gateway City. Time for Sherman to get his guys ready to produce. They have an experience guy in Kenny Britt now and if Sherman's crew cannot step up in 2014, it might be time for Fisher to go in another direction.

Ben Sirmans (Running Backs)...Sirmans has been an excellent position coach IMO. Got quite a bit out of Richardson and then Stacy & Cunningham. Looking forward to having depth like Stacy, Mason, Cunningham & Pead Chase Reynolds notwhithstanding.

 

[CoachO]

Sure there has been execution issues, but I was really hoping the Rams moved on from Schottenheimer this offseason when Norv Turner was available. From what I understood, just like Gregg Williams, that's who Fisher wanted as OC when he first came to St. Louis, but Turner got an unexpected final year as HC in San Diego.

Schottenheimer shows the same play calling issues Jets fans said when they pointed out how he can get a bit pass happy and abandon the running game when it's working, IMO. People give him credit, but Rex Ryan dialed him back the same way Jeff Fisher has had to with the Rams.

Anyway:

- As stated in another thread, where are the back shoulder passes? Austin Pettis would be outstanding there.

- If WRs are having trouble separating, why are they limiting the use of bunch WR formations so much?

- Austin on a fake end around keeps defenders honest vs. the run. Why didn't we see this more?

- Did we ever even run that Jet Sweep Austin made a living on in college?

- Why does Jared Cook always have to line up in the slot? The guy is 6'5" & has a 40+" VJ. Line him out wide some.

- Has he pushed for a legit FB capable of lead blocking AND carrying the rock? When the RB motions out of the backfield everyone knows a pass is coming when Harkey or Kendricks remain in the backfield.

- Is it just me or does the team stop running plays that work well sometimes? Shouldn't they make them stop it first?

- Do tackle eligible plays have to be limited to goal line stands? One year I remember the Packers would almost do it all the way down the field until the opposing teams to stopped them.

- We don't have former Missouri QB Brad Smith, but what happen to mixing in an occasional WildCat type play a couple times per game? Is there not anyone on the roster capable? At least give defense something else to prepare for during the week.

- Fisher may not like the hurry up, but does that mean they always have to huddle up? From time to time, couldn't they call a couple of plays in a huddle and immediately line up the the next formation afterwards? They don't have to rush the snap, but just doing that would keep defenses honest.

I could go on an on and on.

You seem to want them to be a "full service" type of offensive system, while having some of the YOUNGEST skill position players in the NFL.

When the "veteran" WR is in his 3rd year, and is arguably the least talented of the group, I think the things you are suggesting is a recipe for disaster. As "X" mentioned, the inconsistencies of this offense had more to do with poor execution than it did then design. To me, that's all about inexperience. And you want them to make it even more complex by changing fundamentals of the system.

The one misconception about Schottenheimer's offense, is that most think its "simple". Quite the opposite is true. He has been forced to scale things back tremendously due to all the "new" players being added to the mix. It's not just an adjustment for the players. Coaches need to get acclimated to the "talents" of all the new players as much as the players need to "learn" a new system.

I fully expect this offense to continue to evolve and be much more productive moving forward. In spite of losing their starting QB, numerous injuries (again) on the O-Line, they still managed to score more points last year than in any year since 2006. They improved their PPG by 3+ points, and if they just match that margin this year, they will approach and avg of 24+ PPG. With what should be an improved defense, those numbers should be more than enough to get this team over the hump.

 

[fearsomefour]

I'm probably in the minority in that I think Schottenheimer is fine. What I saw, more often than not, was execution problems across the board. He actually came out with a very creative offense, but there were too many lapses in execution - namely along the O-line and the receivers. If a coordinator is bad, he wouldn't be able to switch offensive philosophies overnight and establish a very good ground game. And I don't know how people can see some of the big plays the Rams came down with and think the coordinator is a non-factor. This team had a better big play % than 16 other teams. And with a very inexperienced group of playmakers too. JMO.

....and the penalties were killers.
How many illegal formation penalties??

 

[Prime Time]

I think Schotty is the right man in the right place if Fisher will bring us to play "his football".The problem was last 2 years we didn't play a Fisher/Schotty's football (ground & pounds ) ...

He's the perfect OC for that type of offense but the wrong one for a GSOT type. A solid O-line this season along with some good RB's we can rotate in and out, some WR's that can hold on to the damn ball, and many here will be singing his praises.

 

[rhinobean]

I'd like to see fewer 3 and outs in our end of the field! Run it, pass it, just give the D a rest after they stop the other team. That would help a lot with the winning!

 

[CGI_Ram]

You seem to want them to be a "full service" type of offensive system, while having some of the YOUNGEST skill position players in the NFL.

When the "veteran" WR is in his 3rd year, and is arguably the least talented of the group, I think the things you are suggesting is a recipe for disaster. As "X" mentioned, the inconsistencies of this offense had more to do with poor execution than it did then design. To me, that's all about inexperience. And you want them to make it even more complex by changing fundamentals of the system.

The one misconception about Schottenheimer's offense, is that most think its "simple". Quite the opposite is true. He has been forced to scale things back tremendously due to all the "new" players being added to the mix. It's not just an adjustment for the players. Coaches need to get acclimated to the "talents" of all the new players as much as the players need to "learn" a new system.

I fully expect this offense to continue to evolve and be much more productive moving forward. In spite of losing their starting QB, numerous injuries (again) on the O-Line, they still managed to score more points last year than in any year since 2006. They improved their PPG by 3+ points, and if they just match that margin this year, they will approach and avg of 24+ PPG. With what should be an improved defense, those numbers should be more than enough to get this team over the hump.

I hope you are right.

But it wasn't the RB's calling obvious running plays in obvious situations, and such. That has little to do with player experience.

And... This is what these players do for a living... A back shoulder pass isn't open heart surgery.

 

[dieterbrock]

3 ineffective OC in last 4 seasons.
Same QB
At some point a common denominator should enter the equation.

It's easy to judge the OC based on the production, but there are other WR running routes, we only have the ability to focus on which ones get the ball thrown to them.

 

[-X-]

3 ineffective OC in last 4 seasons.
Same QB
At some point a common denominator should enter the equation.

It's easy to judge the OC based on the production, but there are other WR running routes, we only have the ability to focus on which ones get the ball thrown to them.

I wish it was as simple as that.

 

[blackbart]

I'm ok with Schottenheimer. I think he has a lot of very young players he is trying to develop and has shown the ability to make adjustments from game to game. Offensive execution like most things football comes down to repetition and consistency. Having an Oline that plays together a full season would be awesome, having most of them in year 2 or 3 of the offense will make things easier to execute and allow a wider variety of plays to be used too. The reverse for a TD that TA got against the Bears showed some ingenuity and thought going into using those new weapons. It isn't necessarily Schottenheimer that was holding back last years offense.

 

[Merlin]

CoachO you make some good points. But when there is a disparity between what an OC wants to do and his ability to get the players up to snuff in order to execute it can that not also be his fault? It could very well be that he's not a great teacher in terms of getting the players where they need to be scheme-wise.

His history seems to support that, btw. He has fielded strong running games, but his passing games have only been effective when utilized off of play action. Which is not a bad thing, and which does fit Fish nicely, and which can get a team to the SB. But my point is that I doubt he's ever going to be an OC who fields a dynamic passing attack. So fans who are holding out hope of that are setting themselves up for disappointment IMO.

 

[CoachO]

I hope you are right.

But it wasn't the RB's calling obvious running plays in obvious situations, and such. That has little to do with player experience.

And... This is what these players do for a living... A back shoulder pass isn't open heart surgery.

Might not be open heart surgery, but it does require that BOTH the WR and the QB are on the same page, 100% of the time. I like to quote DeMarco Farr when it comes to these sort of things when it comes to young receivers. "you don't want be that guy who fools your QB by not being where you are supposed to be, when you are supposed to be there". While a back shoulder fade might not seem like "brain surgery", given the lack of experience with THIS WR group, its not like riding a bike with training wheels either.

I suppose one can nitpick every play call that any OC makes. The bottom line is simple. Regardless of play calling, if the players EXECUTE any play they call should be successful. I have seen teams run the same five plays an entire game. And because they execute them to perfection, meaning every single lineman blocks the correct guy, the RBs hit the hole when they are supposed to, the play works.

Might be an over simplification to make a point, but the youth and inexperience is real. And it does have a tremendous impact on how much they can throw at them.

The biggest issue I had with the design of the offense last year, was trying to get too cute in the beginning of the season. They knew they were not going to be able to be a "power" running team with Richardson as the feature back. So they tried to spread things out, which was a complete failure. When they got back to basic football, this team became successfull

 

[bwdenverram]

3 ineffective OC in last 4 seasons.
Same QB
At some point a common denominator should enter the equation.

It's easy to judge the OC based on the production, but there are other WR running routes, we only have the ability to focus on which ones get the ball thrown to them.

You seem to infer that Clemens lit the world on fire with the same OC? No one person makes or breaks a system.

 

[CoachO]

CoachO you make some good points. But when there is a disparity between what an OC wants to do and his ability to get the players up to snuff in order to execute it can that not also be his fault? It could very well be that he's not a great teacher in terms of getting the players where they need to be scheme-wise.

His history seems to support that, btw. He has fielded strong running games, but his passing games have only been effective when utilized off of play action. Which is not a bad thing, and which does fit Fish nicely, and which can get a team to the SB. But my point is that I doubt he's ever going to be an OC who fields a dynamic passing attack. So fans who are holding out hope of that are setting themselves up for disappointment IMO.

I think too much credit/blame gets placed at the foot of the coordinators. When it comes to "teaching" you have to include the position coaches in that discussion. And the development of the players falls more on their shoulders, as does playing time.

You can have the greatest coordinators in the league, but have les than stellar positional coaches (Spagnuolo's staff for example) and it will not work. That being said, there has to be a good mix of both. I said all along last year, that while the pieces seemed to be in place for the defense to dramatically improve, the unknown variable was Walton. And we saw how that worked out.

I am not giving Schottenhiemer a free pass, but I also don't think he is as much of a problem that many seem to think. I sometimes wonder if the GSOT days haven't spoiled this fanbase. That was an era that will never be seen again. But yet, Rams fans tend to use it as the measuring stick by which everything since has been compared to. I honestly think the system that Fisher and Schottenheimer are putting in place, is the quickest and most efficient way to be successful in the current NFC West. They just need to get to a point where they iron out the wrinkles and be more consistent in execution.

 

[dieterbrock]

You seem to infer that Clemens lit the world on fire with the same OC? No one person makes or breaks a system.

I did? Where did I say anything of the like? I think Shotty deserves credit for the team playing credible offense in the 2nd half of the year with the back up QB and a rookie RB.

 

[ChrisW]

I think too much credit/blame gets placed at the foot of the coordinators. When it comes to "teaching" you have to include the position coaches in that discussion. And the development of the players falls more on their shoulders, as does playing time.

You can have the greatest coordinators in the league, but have les than stellar positional coaches (Spagnuolo's staff for example) and it will not work. That being said, there has to be a good mix of both. I said all along last year, that while the pieces seemed to be in place for the defense to dramatically improve, the unknown variable was Walton. And we saw how that worked out.

I am not giving Schottenhiemer a free pass, but I also don't think he is as much of a problem that many seem to think. I sometimes wonder if the GSOT days haven't spoiled this fanbase. That was an era that will never be seen again. But yet, Rams fans tend to use it as the measuring stick by which everything since has been compared to. I honestly think the system that Fisher and Schottenheimer are putting in place, is the quickest and most efficient way to be successful in the current NFC West. They just need to get to a point where they iron out the wrinkles and be more consistent in execution.

I agree that most of the fan base is spoiled by the GSOT, but give us here more credit. The ROD community measures success with W-L rather than past offenses, but if you browse RamSTALK and Facebook comments on the StLouisRams.com website, you'll see the guys that only watch for the entertainment value rather than loving the game.

There's only one position coach that I have a problem with, and that's Ray Sherman...We've seen little to no development from WRs yet..and that falls squarely on his shoulders. But, to be fair this year is his biggest year to prove he can develop these guys and will hold any further judgement until I see what he does with our current guys.

 

[CoachO]

I agree that most of the fan base is spoiled by the GSOT, but give us here more credit. The ROD community measures success with W-L rather than past offenses, but if you browse RamSTALK and Facebook comments on the StLouisRams.com website, you'll see the guys that only watch for the entertainment value rather than loving the game.

There's only one position coach that I have a problem with, and that's Ray Sherman...We've seen little to no development from WRs yet..and that falls squarely on his shoulders. But, to be fair this year is his biggest year to prove he can develop these guys and will hold any further judgement until I see what he does with our current guys.

While I agree the results have not been what one would hope, I find it hard to believe that one of the best position coaches of the modern era suddenly forgot how to coach. I go back to the often referenced and widely accepted theory that the WR position might be the hardest position (outside of QB) to fully adjust to.

With the recent emphasis on the spread attacks in the college game, I think the majority of these guys coming into the league are not well versed in knowing the fundamentals of the position. They get by on scheme and athletic ability in the college game, and just don't know how to play the position.

The other part of this, and I made a brief reference to it earlier in this thread, Schottenheimer's offense, specifically the passing game, is known to be quite complex, and extensive. One of the things you heard from his days in NY, was that it was too complicated. So, add all that up, and you have a group of quite young, albeit talented receivers still trying to find their stride, and a position coach, who has had great success coaching more established groups with teams like San Francisco, Dallas, Green Bay and Minnesota.

Again, this year could and should go a long way in telling us just what this team can become on offense. If they continue to improve, and by that, I am talking about scoring points, not jumping in the ranks in total yards, this team can become a real contender.

 

[ChrisW]

While I agree the results have not been what one would hope, I find it hard to believe that one of the best position coaches of the modern era suddenly forgot how to coach. I go back to the often referenced and widely accepted theory that the WR position might be the hardest position (outside of QB) to fully adjust to.

With the recent emphasis on the spread attacks in the college game, I think the majority of these guys coming into the league are not well versed in knowing the fundamentals of the position. They get by on scheme and athletic ability in the college game, and just don't know how to play the position.

The other part of this, and I made a brief reference to it earlier in this thread, Schottenheimer's offense, specifically the passing game, is known to be quite complex, and extensive. One of the things you heard from his days in NY, was that it was too complicated. So, add all that up, and you have a group of quite young, albeit talented receivers still trying to find their stride, and a position coach, who has had great success coaching more established groups with teams like San Francisco, Dallas, Green Bay and Minnesota.

Again, this year could and should go a long way in telling us just what this team can become on offense. If they continue to improve, and by that, I am talking about scoring points, not jumping in the ranks in total yards, this team can become a real contender.

It may not be Sherman, but when we have invested high picks in receivers over the past couple of drafts...One has to question their development.

And I do know about Schott's offense as being hard to learn. I remember that after he left NY, it came out that Sanchez had a hard time learning all the terminology.