San Bernardino shooting

[Memento]

I'm not even thinking of the shooters. My thoughts are entirely with the victims and their families. They're the ones who should be remembered.

 

[fearsomefour]

You actually have me backwards. My point is that all these people think that banning guns will prevent this sort of thing. Well, the primary guns used were already illegal to possess in CA. So by their logic, this could not have happened.

It is interesting to look at the stats....from a neutral source. FBI stats for example. Looking at stats from a source with an agenda is misguided.
England has a much, much lower murder rate than the US. But, the overall crime rate is higher. Including the violent crime rate. The culture is different of course.
There is no simple answer. A part of it that is more vague and harder to quantify is how society has changed. Political correctness and everything that that entails has become the norm, the standard. Along with that mindset comes the mindset of victimhood. Everyone is a victim now. This is the longer lasting and damaging hangover of the 60's-70's radial mindset. Watch the documentary about the Weather Underground and it is very revealing. Almost all of those folks, those not in prison or dead, went into education.
Why? Destroy from within.
We are country now of diminished expectations, of entitlement and of victimhood. Taking away a certain kind of gun, particularly when there are so many, the borders are open and gangs are so rampant, won't do much if any good.
The culture will have to change. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Just my humble opinion of course.

 

[RamFan503]

What type of guns were they?

Also they were in an area that was very pro gun.

ARs And they had 1800 rounds on them in mags so unless they had 180 clips on them, their mags were also illegal.

BTW Redlands isn't exactly the SB county you are thinking of as pro gun.

 

[RamFan503]

Oh gotcha. Thanks for clearing it up. I was really confused because I though CA was anti gun.

They are and I probably should have used blue font. My point is that though the media wants to report that the guns were purchased legally, they are choosing to leave out all the gun laws that were broken in this case. In looking at the rifles, I can pick out several. And I'm still not buying that the M&P 15 was bought legally in CA. Forget about the fact they were in a gun free zone.

 

[bluecoconuts]

ARs And they had 1800 rounds on them in mags so unless they had 180 clips on them, their mags were also illegal.

BTW Redlands isn't exactly the SB county you are thinking of as pro gun.

AR15s aren't illegal in CA. You just either need to get a featureless one, or a bulletbutton. I googled what they had, it seemed they had bulletbuttons.

The pistols were also CA legal.

The high cap mags seemed to be the only thing not legal, but its pretty easy to go to Vegas and buy those cash. Or a few years ago they could order magazine parts kits and get high caps. They closed that I believe last year.

What I meant was San Bernardino is a shall issue county, its really easy to get a CCW there, so those people could have carried if they wanted to, they're able to get those permits.

 

[BonifayRam]

Its not a shooting, a shooting is when I use a firearm to kill a snake.

Its Terrorism. The two people who did this were terrorist. These folks in this southern California city who were enjoying a Christmas party loss their lives & were badly injured by people known to practice the Islam faith. Where can citizens buy those 12 or more pipe bombs found in their home? The US Government officials nor will the FBI ever say this was Islamic terrorism.

A city or a county located in California pro gun? Compared to what ? I tread very lightly when I travel through my birth state. I consider California a anti pro gun state.

Gun free zones are just plain unsafe areas to be in for long for me & my family. But my opinion is probably considered skewed because its coming from a Ram fan who was a life long Law Enforcement Officer living in the deep south who grew up my entire life with all types of firearms (that includes my early years in California). I am a type of guy who feels very safe when I attend Obama's hated gun shows.

 

[RamFan503]

AR15s aren't illegal in CA. You just either need to get a featureless one, or a bulletbutton. I googled what they had, it seemed they had bulletbuttons.

Look at the pictures again. Where do you see a bulletbutton and what is wrong with that picture if they had them? The magazines are out of the rifles - no? They are also not featureless and have built in pistol grips. Are you saying this couple bought those guns pre-ban? 26 and 28 year olds? Do we need to list off the existing CA gun laws these guns and their owners violated?

The pistols were also CA legal.

Apparently remained holstered but that is not confirmed. Regardless, I did say the main weapons used, which were not the 9mm pistols. Looking at the pic though, the 9mm on the right actually appears to be a hi-cap so that wouldn't be legal in CA either unless they used a blocked mag. I can't actually tell what model that is so I'm only guessing there.

The high cap mags seemed to be the only thing not legal, but its pretty easy to go to Vegas and buy those cash. Or a few years ago they could order magazine parts kits and get high caps. They closed that I believe last year.

And made possession of the mags along with the gun illegal. The mags are not the only things currently illegal about those guns in CA.

What I meant was San Bernardino is a shall issue county, its really easy to get a CCW there, so those people could have carried if they wanted to, they're able to get those permits.

They were in a gun free zone so even a CCW holder would not have been allowed to carry there. But feel free to name the last CCW holder that was involved in anything like this. My dad has a FFL, is part of the SLO Sheriff's Posie, and has his CCW. Saying SB is a shall issue county means nothing really. I believe (not sure) most of CA is shall issue. That doesn't mean It is easy or that an area is pro gun. It only means that the Sheriff's department has not made a case for non-issue.

But of course - no CCW and they are breaking another law by concealing the weapons.

 

[RamFan503]

My dad has a FFL, is part of the SLO Sheriff's Posie, and has his CCW.

BTW - my mentioning this is because even my dad is not allowed to possess those rifles without a special permit which the couple did not have and are very difficult to obtain.

 

[LetsGoRams]

FBI just acknowledged in press conference. 100% terrorism act.

 

[Memento]

FBI just acknowledged in press conference. 100% terrorism act.

So what if it was? The shooters are both dead, so we can't charge them. Fourteen people are dead, and nobody's talking about them. Only the shooters. So I say, who the hell cares if it was? My thoughts are solely with the people who were slain and injured by those psychos.

Would rather not let this thread get political like every other thread we've had like this.

 

[fearsomefour]

So what if it was? The shooters are both dead, so we can't charge them. Fourteen people are dead, and nobody's talking about them. Only the shooters. So I say, who the hell cares if it was? My thoughts are solely with the people who were slain and injured by those psychos.

Would rather not let this thread get political like every other thread we've had like this.

Because its part of a bigger issue.
This is confirmation of a bigger issue and probably the tip on an ice something....ice cube? iceberg? Who knows? But we are going to find out. My hunch is it will be getting worse before it gets better.
Thoughts going to victims does nothing....its cool, I get it, but, being proactive about the current/future seems smart. How to best do that? That is the conversation that needs to take place in society.

 

[RamFan503]

So what if it was? The shooters are both dead, so we can't charge them. Fourteen people are dead, and nobody's talking about them. Only the shooters. So I say, who the hell cares if it was? My thoughts are solely with the people who were slain and injured by those psychos.

Would rather not let this thread get political like every other thread we've had like this.

No one here discounts the victims. Why it is important is what we can learn from it and what actions can be taken to prevent these kinds of attacks. Going with the idea that more gun laws is some kind of answer to these attacks is simply burying our heads in the sand and making misplaced reactionary laws that can actually have an adverse effect on people being able to defend themselves against this kind of ilk. And that seems to be the over riding logic by our leadership - that we solve this by restricting gun ownership - not by looking at the real problem.

 

[BonifayRam]

FBI just acknowledged in press conference. 100% terrorism act.

What type of terrorism act? I am sure they did not call what type of terrorist act it was. Anyone with two working brain cells knew it was a 100% terrorist related.

 

[RamFan503]

What type of terrorism act? I am sure they did not call what type of terrorist act it was. Anyone with two working brain cells knew it was a 100% terrorist related.

They are being awfully tight with details on this one. While I can understand somewhat, I don't appreciate how the information is being maneuvered to try to draw attention away by blaming a gun culture in America. All we end up with is an eroding of our rights while the real issues go unaddressed or whitewashed in the name of PC.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Look at the pictures again. Where do you see a bulletbutton and what is wrong with that picture if they had them? The magazines are out of the rifles - no? They are also not featureless and have built in pistol grips. Are you saying this couple bought those guns pre-ban? 26 and 28 year olds? Do we need to list off the existing CA gun laws these guns and their owners violated?


Apparently remained holstered but that is not confirmed. Regardless, I did say the main weapons used, which were not the 9mm pistols. Looking at the pic though, the 9mm on the right actually appears to be a hi-cap so that wouldn't be legal in CA either unless they used a blocked mag. I can't actually tell what model that is so I'm only guessing there.

And made possession of the mags along with the gun illegal. The mags are not the only things currently illegal about those guns in CA.

They were in a gun free zone so even a CCW holder would not have been allowed to carry there. But feel free to name the last CCW holder that was involved in anything like this. My dad has a FFL, is part of the SLO Sheriff's Posie, and has his CCW. Saying SB is a shall issue county means nothing really. I believe (not sure) most of CA is shall issue. That doesn't mean It is easy or that an area is pro gun. It only means that the Sheriff's department has not made a case for non-issue.

But of course - no CCW and they are breaking another law by concealing the weapons.

Its hard to tell with the picture I saw, because it wasn't very high def/close, but it looked like there was a bullet button on the rifles. If there was, then the rifle itself (not talking about the magazines) is perfectly legal. You can have all those features as long as you have a bulletbutton and the barrel is 16 inches, and the overall length is at least 30 inches. Those rifles are fine.

If they didn't have a bulletbutton, well those are stupid easy to get around. Magnets, radlocks, or just go to Nevada or Arizona and buy a regular mag release and change out. It takes 2 minutes to do. You can remove the magazine with a bulletbutton, it just requires a tool.

Both those handguns, from what I could tell were on the CA approved roster. Again, that's not discussing the magazines, if they were high cap or not. Most will just have a standard magazine, its blocked. Take a look at the picture of my magazine that I carry, can you tell me how many it holds? Of course not (its 10, obviously) because from the outside it looks the same as any standard magazine.

I can show rifles that are legal and look just like those. There are tons of loopholes to be honest.

In terms of gun free zones and crap, that's another debate. I'm just saying those guns appear to be legal, other than high cap mags. It wasn't necessarily a failure in gun laws.

That's not to say CA gun laws are good, they don't really make sense to be honest, and because things vary state to state so much, its really easy to get around. All it does is make things a pain in the ass for regular law abiding citizens, they're stupid. I agree with some of CA laws on guns, disagree with a lot of them. This wasn't a failure of CA gun laws though, but it does demonstrate that gun laws that vary from state to state essentially make them useless. Common sense needs to be used, not kmeejerk reactions from both sides. However as long as both sides are all or nothing, it'll never change. Again, that's another topic for another time. Most gun laws ignore a lot of aspects, including American history, culture, and how we are a melting pot. What works elsewhere wont work everywhere here.

 

[RamFan503]

they don't really make sense to be honest, and because things vary state to state so much, its really easy to get around. All it does is make things a pain in the ass for regular law abiding citizens, they're stupid.

I agree with this whole heartedly. And I'm not saying that this was a failure of gun laws. Gun laws are a failure to begin with. The mere fact that they make laws that are so easily sidestepped is a failure on the part of the people proposing them and getting them passed. All they do is ensure that the guns are in the wrong hands.

Doesn't sound like we are really disagreeing at the heart of the points. Once you disable the bulletbutton for example, the gun is illegal. Once you add on the fore grip, the gun is illegal. Once you bring it into a gun free zone, the gun is illegal. There are about a dozen gun laws that were broken here in this case. It's idiocy.

And what you said about ignoring history, culture, etc. is dead on. But real solutions are very difficult. I just get tired of the lazy media and politicians that want to institute new gun restrictions as if that will do a damn thing. Meanwhile, criminals are created out of lawful citizens unless they give up their right to defend themselves.

BTW - I am talking about Hi-cap guns not clips. I believe they have worded the newer laws to not allow any newer Hi-cap hand guns even though you indeed can block the clip to make them not take more than 10. It's a minor point and still gets us back to a useless law.

 

[rhinobean]

The gun free zone is a wasted law! The only law that makes sense is the one that bars people who are criminals/suspected terrorists access to guns. I'll admit that guns that were made for combat shouldn't be available for sale! Stopping this folks from using guns is futile. concealed carry may be the only way to protect oneself! Guns here are in a safe or where they can be used for self defense! Hope I don't get in a situation where I need to defend myself ass shooting someone's bad news!

 

[RAMSinLA]

A lot of Americans died for the rights we have today...so they won't be surrendered easily. Cutting into the 2nd amendment at a time when the enemy is within our own borders is absurd. In my opinion.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I agree with this whole heartedly. And I'm not saying that this was a failure of gun laws. Gun laws are a failure to begin with. The mere fact that they make laws that are so easily sidestepped is a failure on the part of the people proposing them and getting them passed. All they do is ensure that the guns are in the wrong hands.

Doesn't sound like we are really disagreeing at the heart of the points. Once you disable the bulletbutton for example, the gun is illegal. Once you add on the fore grip, the gun is illegal. Once you bring it into a gun free zone, the gun is illegal. There are about a dozen gun laws that were broken here in this case. It's idiocy.

And what you said about ignoring history, culture, etc. is dead on. But real solutions are very difficult. I just get tired of the lazy media and politicians that want to institute new gun restrictions as if that will do a damn thing. Meanwhile, criminals are created out of lawful citizens unless they give up their right to defend themselves.

BTW - I am talking about Hi-cap guns not clips. I believe they have worded the newer laws to not allow any newer Hi-cap hand guns even though you indeed can block the clip to make them not take more than 10. It's a minor point and still gets us back to a useless law.

With the bullet button, you can have the fore grip. The bullet button is essentially the "we feel better and safer" button that was pushed through. As long as you have that, you can basically have any of the "evil" features, flash suppressors, folding/collapsible butt-stocks, forward grips, etc

In terms of high cap guns, I'm not sure what you mean. We have the CA approved handgun roster, that names guns, specifically (as in by make, model, caliber, and color) that are approved for sale in CA. They need to have specific features, such as a loaded chamber indicator, and magazine disconnect, for newer models. If you are selling guns via Private Party, then you can get off roster guns, as long as they are CA legal.

The magazines are the high cap ones, if they hold more than 10 they are not CA legal, unless they're preban ones. The city of Los Angeles just passed a law that said that high cap mags, even those that are preban, are now illegal within the city, but the entire state doesn't have that rule. Other than a revolver, I don't really think there would be any 'high cap' stuff.

 

[Mike]

Not sure how this is not going to end up being too political or delve into religion. My biggest take away though is that it is not possible that this sort of thing can happen in a state that doesn't allow the possession of these weapons in the first place.

AR-15 rifles are legal to own in Ca. They have to have a button to release the magazine. There is a magazine capacity restriction of 10 rounds. From what I've heard the rifles were modified to accept magazines that were over the 10 round legal capacity and the pictures I saw indicate to me that they were 30 round magazine and not 10 round magazines. The rifles were purchased legally but modified
to defeat the bullet button feature as well as the feature to allow the mags to be 10 rounds only. The rifles were bought legally and then modified. This obviously indicates there was a plan and help from outside sources. The rifles would have to have been modified to accept large capacity mags and defeat the bullet button feature. AR-15 rifles sold in Ca. Are called California compliant. What I've written is very basic as the laws concerning so called assault rifles in Ca are very complicated. An actual assault rifle is selective fire, meaning it has a fully automatic mode as well as a semi auto or 3 round burst mode One cannot buy a fully automatic firearm in Ca. They are prohibited. By that I mean the average Joe cannot own them. This a very very basic overview of these laws and is by no means comprehensive. There are are also grandfather clauses regarding the ownership of 30 rounds mags and certain AR 15 rifles. That does not seem to apply here...ok I'm going to get another beer.