Rams leaning towards Wentz?

[Bisonbacker]

Well both sides seem pretty dug in, I'm just curious are there any objective...that's objective, folks here whom have actually seen either one of these guys play (3 full LIVE game minimum)

I have on only one of the two, and I'll tell anyone who'll listen he is the real deal

As for the other guy, hey he too may make it.

I've seen all of Wentz's games since he took over for Brock Jensen. Been watching NDSU football along with Gophers football for years. Gophers are hard to watch

 

[Bizon]

Speak intelligently about the players...

Hahaha .....I guess that's why Wentz went to a lower division school and Goff went against Div1, NFL caliber defenders.

Jerry, it's coming from both camps. Like I've said I like Goff a lot. I've studied these quarterbacks for over a year. Wentz is my guy and I may be somewhat swayed as a homer. We could go back and forth all day on the two, but they are both solid prospects.

You seem very football intelligent. So help me with a question I've had for a long time. Why is the pro style quarterback who is already at the ideal size, that has also had many guys raving about his advanced football IQ the quarterback that is considered less pro ready in this two man debate?

 

[Bisonbacker]

Good questions Bizon and I've wondered the same thing. I will also say I think both guys will do well but they most certainly have different strengths and that is why I believe Carson will be going to the Rams. Makes to much sense. Yes I am a homer also for Carson but that aside it still makes more sense for Carson to be going to LA.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

S

I've seen all of Wentz's games since he took over for Brock Jensen. Been watching NDSU football along with Gophers football for years. Gophers are hard to watch

Speaking of Brock Jensen, why do you suppose he didn't get a chance in the NFL. (Serious question)

Never seen the guy, don't know anything about him, I guess my point is maybe there is some credence to level of competition

I wonder if Wentz went to Cal, was made the schools first true freshman QB ever, could he havemanaged to lead them to a winning record? or would he have been buried on the depth chart (AS he was at NDSU as a freshman) what if Goff went to NDSU? I bet he would have unseated Jensen fairy rapidly. (Speculation of course)

Not sure what to read into that, but it seems some here to mention W-L records as if...

 

[Rams43]

One thing we can all agree on, including both QB's and their agent.

Neither QB will be drafted by the Browns!

 

[Bisonbacker]

S


Speaking of Brock Jensen, why do you suppose he didn't get a chance in the NFL. (Serious question)

Never seen the guy, don't know anything about him, I guess my point is maybe there is some credence to level of competition

I wonder if Wentz went to Cal, was made the schools first true freshman QB ever, could he havemanaged to lead them to a winning record, or would he have been buried on the depth chart As he was at NDSU as a freshman) what if Goff went to NDSU , I bet he would have unseated Jensen fairy rapidly. (Speculation of course)

Not sure what to read into that, but it seems some here to mention W-L records as if...

Brock did get a chance with Miami, but he doesn't have nearly as strong of an arm. He's shorter by about 3 inches. Just physical skills he wasn't quite where he needed to be for the NFL level as a starter anyway. Just my opinion.

As to if Wentz had gone to another school I can only say this. Had Carson gone to an FBS school this discussion wouldn't be happening. Carson is a student of the game. He's a competitor and has a drive to succeed second to none. He'd in my opinion be the undisputed #1 choice. No way would he have been buried on any FBS depth chart. Thing is so much of my comments are predicated on his skills alone. What determines a guys success has so much to do with the system he's put into and the level of freedom he's given to control the play calling. Carson had that at NDSU which is a traditional power run game with passing coming second. The play fit Carson to a T. That is why I think he's the best fit for Fischers system and the Rams.

Lastly as to Goff unseating Jensen refer to my last comments on the play style. As far as unseating the winningest QB in FCS history you just don't sit a guy who won you the NC not to mention 3 in a row. Not unless you don't value your job as a Head Coach. Let me put it this way. These are true quotes from an opposing coach in the MVFC regarding playing NDSU and Jensen. They told their players to knock him on his ass but help him back up because they didn't want his back up (Carson Wentz) in the game. That was what they actually told their defense.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Yeah well if Goff had allowed NDSU to recruit and sign him, I'm pretty sure they would have capitulated to giving him the nod

 

[Bizon]

S


Speaking of Brock Jensen, why do you suppose he didn't get a chance in the NFL. (Serious question)

Never seen the guy, don't know anything about him, I guess my point is maybe there is some credence to level of competition

I wonder if Wentz went to Cal, was made the schools first true freshman QB ever, could he havemanaged to lead them to a winning record? or would he have been buried on the depth chart (AS he was at NDSU as a freshman) what if Goff went to NDSU? I bet he would have unseated Jensen fairy rapidly. (Speculation of course)

Not sure what to read into that, but it seems some here to mention W-L records as if...

Goff wouldn't have unseated Jensen. Jensen went undefeated during Wentz's sophomore season. The coaches bench an undefeated 2 time national champion and lose a game (remember it's a team game) fans would be calling for their head on a stick.

As far as Jensen, why isn't Cardale Jones or Jake Coker in this conversation. Both are undefeated and national champions. And they did against the uber elite FBS.

You can put on the Jensen tape, I'm sure there's some on youtube. He's sub par to Wentz in every category. Arm strength, accuracy, footwork, athleticism. There's a reason were talking about Wentz as a top NFL quarterback and Jensen is trying to keep his roster spot in Canada. And FWIW, I love Jensen. He shouldn't ever have to buy a beer in Fargo ever again. But he's not an NFL quarterback.

 

[Bizon]

One thing we can all agree on, including both QB's and their agent.

Neither QB will be drafted by the Browns!

This post deserves more likes!

 

[jrry32]

Jerry, it's coming from both camps. Like I've said I like Goff a lot. I've studied these quarterbacks for over a year. Wentz is my guy and I may be somewhat swayed as a homer. We could go back and forth all day on the two, but they are both solid prospects.

You seem very football intelligent. So help me with a question I've had for a long time. Why is the pro style quarterback who is already at the ideal size, that has also had many guys raving about his advanced football IQ the quarterback that is considered less pro ready in this two man debate?

Because he's less mechanically polished, not as quick through progressions, and not as deceptive with his eyes. Wentz has issues in his lower body mechanics that need refining and is nowhere near as developed with his pocket movement. In addition to that, Goff's mental processing speed on the field is superior and Goff is better at using his eyes to move defenders while Wentz has a tendency to lock onto WRs at times.

Both guys will have to learn a new scheme. Wentz will have a leg up in terms of verbiage and concepts but he'll have to learn a new scheme while reworking his mechanics and developing his pocket movement. Goff will have to learn a scheme while working on taking snaps under center and his new drops in the pro style scheme. The latter is significantly easier than the former to do. Especially considering that Wentz will have to work on his drops too in terms of refining his footwork and coordinating his drops with the new scheme he's in because each scheme has their own way of doing it.(drops and tempo are typically coordinated with route concepts) It'll be more familiar for Wentz but he'll have a lot of other things that he'll have to be focusing on.

Goff is the more polished player and has less things to take his focus away from learning the new scheme.

 

[Bizon]

Because he's less mechanically polished, not as quick through progressions, and not as deceptive with his eyes. Wentz has issues in his lower body mechanics that need refining and is nowhere near as developed with his pocket movement. In addition to that, Goff's mental processing speed on the field is superior and Goff is better at using his eyes to move defenders while Wentz has a tendency to lock onto WRs at times.

Both guys will have to learn a new scheme. Wentz will have a leg up in terms of verbiage and concepts but he'll have to learn a new scheme while reworking his mechanics and developing his pocket movement. Goff will have to learn a scheme while working on taking snaps under center and his new drops in the pro style scheme. The latter is significantly easier than the former to do. Especially considering that Wentz will have to work on his drops too in terms of refining his footwork and coordinating his drops with the new scheme he's in because each scheme has their own way of doing it.(drops and tempo are typically coordinated with route concepts) It'll be more familiar for Wentz but he'll have a lot of other things that he'll have to be focusing on.

Goff is the more polished player and has less things to take his focus away from learning the new scheme.

Thanks for not using the argument he threw more passes.

I agree on the mechanics front. I'll however, respectfully disagree on the progressions mental processing aspect. I've seen plenty of plays where fans have pointed to Wentz locking into a target, but when you breakdown the play he had correctly determined the defense being run and had already determined the route that should be open given the defense. He was just waiting for the WR to make the break. I'm not saying he is head and shoulders above Goff in this aspect, but I can't give Goff the edge.

Also Benoit who sat down with both is quoted as saying Wentz is like talking to a 5 year NFL veteran as where Goff is more like talking to a typical NFL rookie. JMO, and we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, but I believe Wentz will have a leg up in getting pro ready.

FWIW, you draft whoever you think will be the better pro long term. If you believe that's Goff, pick him. My bets on Wentz, but I like Goff a lot as well. Honestly, I think both these guys will be starting for someone in 10 years.

 

[Bisonbacker]

Because he's less mechanically polished, not as quick through progressions, and not as deceptive with his eyes. Wentz has issues in his lower body mechanics that need refining and is nowhere near as developed with his pocket movement. In addition to that, Goff's mental processing speed on the field is superior and Goff is better at using his eyes to move defenders while Wentz has a tendency to lock onto WRs at times.

Both guys will have to learn a new scheme. Wentz will have a leg up in terms of verbiage and concepts but he'll have to learn a new scheme while reworking his mechanics and developing his pocket movement. Goff will have to learn a scheme while working on taking snaps under center and his new drops in the pro style scheme. The latter is significantly easier than the former to do. Especially considering that Wentz will have to work on his drops too in terms of refining his footwork and coordinating his drops with the new scheme he's in because each scheme has their own way of doing it.(drops and tempo are typically coordinated with route concepts) It'll be more familiar for Wentz but he'll have a lot of other things that he'll have to be focusing on.

Goff is the more polished player and has less things to take his focus away from learning the new scheme.

Lets break down your post. You say Wentz is ....

• less mechanically polished

Do you want a Robot out there You've been drinking the koolaid on this. Both QB's were asked to do different things in their respective offenses. Both excelled at them. Just as you give Goff more credit for passing accuracy which is close to a push in reality it certainly isn't like Wentz can't deliver the ball on target. I'd also add that Goff lacks the physical skills that Wentz has in spades. Wentz has a stronger arm. Accuracy is only a slight advantage for Goff but again given what they were asked to do in their respective offenses it makes sense for you to think that as he has a larger sample size to critique.

• not as quick through progressions,

Again you mistake quick through progressions for understanding and being able to read a defense, In fact Wentz knew many times where he was going with the ball based on the defense that was being shown. So in actuality what you call a weakness is one of his strengths and clearly outshines Goff by miles. This is also the perception of the "Staring down receivers" which is so wrong. Even if your assesment was correct which it is not this is something that would be easily corrected with a QB if he understands defenses. Goff wasn't asked to do anything even remotely close to what Wentz was asked to do in his offense and that showed in their games.

• Wentz has issues in his lower body mechanics that need refining and is nowhere near as developed with his pocket movement.

You commented on this point many times and also spread it out to not only mechanics but footwork and pocket movement/presence. Wentz in reality has more in his toolbox here than Goff given what they are going to face with NFL defenses. Given that Wentz is miles ahead of Goff in calling protections, understanding defenses and changing plays at the LOS Goff is going to be the one who has a lot of catch up work to do in that regard. That along with having to work on taking snaps under center and learning what Wentz already knows puts Wentz well ahead of Goff.

Both guys are going to be working on new concepts they are not familiar with but your assesment of Wentz is shaded by your like for Goff. You could say the same about mine but the fact is Wentz has done the things already that will be asked of him and Goff has not. That is indisputable. How quickly Goff can pick up on those things and how quickly both are thrown into the game will have a lot to do with how successful they are right away. But you make it sound like Wentz is behind Goff when in reality it's the other way around.

 

[Ramfansince79]

Man vs Boy? Hahaha .....I guess that's why Wentz went to a lower division school and Goff went against Div1, NFL caliber defenders.

I've read that Wentz matured (physically) later

 

[nighttrain]

I've read that Wentz matured (physically) later

see Goff after two years of weight room, Goff two years younger
train

 

[Bizon]

see Goff after two years of weight room, Goff two years younger
train

There's a lot of trains here. I'm still the captain of the thank god the browns traded back and the whiners didn't trade up train.

 

[nighttrain]

There's a lot of trains here. I'm still the captain of the thank god the browns traded back and the whiners didn't trade up train.

there is only one Train, and i've been around forever it seems
train

 

[jrry32]

Lets break down your post. You say Wentz is ....

• less mechanically polished

Do you want a Robot out there You've been drinking the koolaid on this. Both QB's were asked to do different things in their respective offenses. Both excelled at them. Just as you give Goff more credit for passing accuracy which is close to a push in reality it certainly isn't like Wentz can't deliver the ball on target. I'd also add that Goff lacks the physical skills that Wentz has in spades. Wentz has a stronger arm. Accuracy is only a slight advantage for Goff but again given what they were asked to do in their respective offenses it makes sense for you to think that as he has a larger sample size to critique.

Yes. I want a robot out there. I haven't been drinking any kool-aid. I know what a proper throwing base looks like. Wentz didn't have one at NDSU. It was far too wide and forced him to have to get his legs right before he threw which wasted precious time. Or it forced him to throw without involving his base like he should. In addition to that, Wentz allowed his feet to die in the pocket which is something that cannot happen in the NFL. You have to keep your feet active. Static feet will get you sacked. Due to NDSU's stellar OL, Wentz was able to settle on a spot and sit down far too often. He doesn't have the same level of foot quickness as Goff which puts him slightly behind the 8-ball but that's no big deal. The bigger deal is that he doesn't consistently move in the pocket. He lets his feet become static, he sits on a spot, and reads the defense. With the way NFL teams get after the passer, he's not going to be able to do that.

Which means he's going to have master things that Goff has already had to master due to poor OL he played behind.

I've already taken Wentz's physical tools into account. They're not relevant to a discussion about his mechanics.

• not as quick through progressions,

Again you mistake quick through progressions for understanding and being able to read a defense, In fact Wentz knew many times where he was going with the ball based on the defense that was being shown. So in actuality what you call a weakness is one of his strengths and clearly outshines Goff by miles. This is also the perception of the "Staring down receivers" which is so wrong. Even if your assesment was correct which it is not this is something that would be easily corrected with a QB if he understands defenses. Goff wasn't asked to do anything even remotely close to what Wentz was asked to do in his offense and that showed in their games.

You're wrong. Another example of someone looking at the label on the offense and making an incorrect determination.

Wentz and Goff both had plenty of plays where they got the ball out to their first read. That's not at issue here. When each player had to progress past their first read, Goff was far quicker through his progressions. And that's going to make a huge difference in the NFL. Goff's mental processing speed is on par with any QB I've evaluated. He's one of the few guys I've seen who can get to his check-down read after a full-field read on par with NFL veterans. I've seen a number of players where he hits 3 progressions with speed on one side of the field and then hits his 4th progression on the other side of the field with precise timing. That is not normal. Goff gets to his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. reads faster than Wentz does. He processes things quicker after the snap.

And no, my perception of staring down receivers isn't wrong. I've explained many times on this board and others when staring down receivers is appropriate and inappropriate. I'm quite aware when you can do it. Wentz does it at times he shouldn't. He got away with it in college because he has a ridiculous arm. He'll have to work on it in the pros. It's not a major problem but it is something he needs to correct.

On the other hand, Goff was asked to look off coverage and use his eyes to move defenders. All this crap about Goff not being asked to do Wentz did does nothing for me. Goff operated his system the way he was supposed to and had a lot of freedom and responsibility in that system. It's also irrelevant to the discussion of Goff moving through his progressions quicker and using his eyes more effectively to move defenders.

• Wentz has issues in his lower body mechanics that need refining and is nowhere near as developed with his pocket movement.

You commented on this point many times and also spread it out to not only mechanics but footwork and pocket movement/presence. Wentz in reality has more in his toolbox here than Goff given what they are going to face with NFL defenses. Given that Wentz is miles ahead of Goff in calling protections, understanding defenses and changing plays at the LOS Goff is going to be the one who has a lot of catch up work to do in that regard. That along with having to work on taking snaps under center and learning what Wentz already knows puts Wentz well ahead of Goff.

Both guys are going to be working on new concepts they are not familiar with but your assesment of Wentz is shaded by your like for Goff. You could say the same about mine but the fact is Wentz has done the things already that will be asked of him and Goff has not. That is indisputable. How quickly Goff can pick up on those things and how quickly both are thrown into the game will have a lot to do with how successful they are right away. But you make it sound like Wentz is behind Goff when in reality it's the other way around.

My assessment of Wentz isn't shaded by anything. Notice that I'm not deflecting all these very precise criticisms of Wentz's game by going back to Wentz being in a pro style system.

You asked for precise criticisms. I gave you them. Your response to all my criticisms was, "Oh yea, well Wentz was in a pro style system." So what?

Wentz does not have more in his toolbox when it comes to pocket presence, footwork, and movement. You can't even give a reason why he does besides him having played in a pro style offense. That has nothing to do with pocket presence, movement, and footwork.

You want to see what makes Goff special in the pocket? Here you go:
https://gifs.com/gif/W61WMQ

That's the sort of thing that Goff can do and Wentz cannot at this point in their respective careers. And that sort of thing will make a MASSIVE difference in the NFL.

Oh and here's a great example of Goff making a full-field read and getting to his 4th progression with precise timing and great speed which results in a big play after a great throw...oh and he does this while the pocket collapses around him:
https://gifs.com/gif/xkyoX3

I make it sound like Wentz is behind Goff because he is. Your response to my post was not contesting the precise issues that I spoke about in Wentz's game. It was reiterating that Wentz played in a pro style offense and Goff did not.

That analysis gets you nowhere with me. Especially when you accuse me of being biased, drinking kool-aid, not knowing what I'm talking about, and not understanding what I'm talking about. I dig deep on my evaluations. A lot deeper than the system each QB played in.

 

[Ramfansince79]

see Goff after two years of weight room, Goff two years younger
train

The thing that really concerns me about that is what happens to his great, as has been touted, accuracy once he does start lifting? Everyone loses touch when their muscles are changing.

 

[nighttrain]

The thing that really concerns me about that is what happens to his great, as has been touted, accuracy once he does start lifting? Everyone loses touch when their muscles are changing.

Goff is not going to be Hercules with a bit of weight training, just tougher

 

[jrry32]

Thanks for not using the argument he threw more passes.

I agree on the mechanics front. I'll however, respectfully disagree on the progressions mental processing aspect. I've seen plenty of plays where fans have pointed to Wentz locking into a target, but when you breakdown the play he had correctly determined the defense being run and had already determined the route that should be open given the defense. He was just waiting for the WR to make the break. I'm not saying he is head and shoulders above Goff in this aspect, but I can't give Goff the edge.

You can correctly determine the route and still look off coverage. That's going to be key in the NFL. Because NFL defenders will read a QB's eyes. And they get their so much faster than college defenders do.

When the defense is in certain looks, it's not an issue for you to stare down a route. But Wentz does it when he shouldn't. You can't stare down a WR waiting for him to get into his break against most NFL coverages. It's going to result in broken up passes, big hits, and picks.

Also Benoit who sat down with both is quoted as saying Wentz is like talking to a 5 year NFL veteran as where Goff is more like talking to a typical NFL rookie. JMO, and we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, but I believe Wentz will have a leg up in getting pro ready.

I don't doubt that Wentz is highly intelligent. But that doesn't make him more pro ready. Wentz is going to be better at diagramming NFL plays/concepts and speaking using NFL verbiage. He's used to it. It's a second language to him. But that only takes you so far. If Goff is a tick faster mentally on the field, that's going to make a greater difference. And he is right now.

To be fair to Wentz, he has started less games. Which means that he might catch up. But he also might not. Goff processes things really really quickly.

FWIW, you draft whoever you think will be the better pro long term. If you believe that's Goff, pick him. My bets on Wentz, but I like Goff a lot as well. Honestly, I think both these guys will be starting for someone in 10 years.

I like both a lot. My bet is on Goff in the short term and the long term. But there's a very real chance that Wentz could be better in the long term.