Rams and Penalties

[shaunpinney]

Our penalty count last year was abysmal, and it was the big thing that I wanted to get fixed this year, so far it doesn't seem like we've done that.

I look at it in basic terms, but we gave up 121 yards on the weekend, now when I was playing amateur rugby we'd get drummed into us that penalties result in points for the opposition, the way we would have looked at that 121 yards would equal 10 points gifted to the opposition (at least). Regressing 100 yards would result in a TD (7 pts) 21 yards on top would at least be a FG, which is what usually happens, we get penalised so much that the opposition rack up the points.

Does any one know if there is any system in place with the rams where they fine the guy that gets penalised? A % of their game time wage to an injured football players charity would be a start...

We used to have to do laps of the pitch post-game if we gave aways soft penalties.

Anyone have any other ideas on how we can reduce the penalty count?

 

[BuffaloRam]

O-Line cohesion and experience will help the team reduce the number of penalties on Offense. As to some of the offensive pass interference calls, I don't know...

 

[DaveFan'51]

Their were a couple of Penalties, at least, that were pure BS. Like the Penalty on Chris Long, replay clearly showed the O-Lineman across from him moved first! and the Penalty on Bates for running into the kicker, when he was blocked into the kicker! although that one was over-turned. To me it's clear the Ref's are a little rusty, in this 1st game of the season!

 

[Fatbot]

Fans are bothered by penalties so this thread keeps popping up, but I think it's pretty clear by now the Rams simply do not care about the penalties and it will never change. Yes, Fisher will pay lip service to the things fans & media want to hear, but actions speak louder than words and Fisher has done absolutely nothing to dissuade the penalties (as far as I know).

I think the truth is the Rams know that penalties just aren't a huge factor in NFL wins/losses. There is almost no correlation between penalties and winning -- many Super Bowl winning teams have among or the most penalties. See http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2003/are-penalties-overrated

However, that's not to say penalties are totally meaningless. It's just like a lot of things in football, penalties are counter-intuitive to what a fan thinks. Football Prospectus 2007 studied it and here's the bullet points:

* Teams with more offensive penalties generally lose more games, but there is no correlation between defensive penalties and losses.

* Defensive penalties often represent strong defensive play that goes just over the line between legal and illegal. As long as penalties are only called every so often, this kind of close play leads to successful defense.

Why? "Specific defensive penalties of course lose games; we’ve all sworn at the television when the cornerback on our favorite team gets flagged for a 50-yard pass interference penalty. Yet overall, there is no correlation between losses and the total of defensive penalties or even the total yardage on defensive penalties. One reason is that defensive penalties often represent good play, not bad. Cornerbacks who play tight coverage may be just on the edge of a penalty on most plays, only occasionally earning a flag. Defensive ends who get a good jump on rushing the passer will gladly trade an encroachment penalty or two for ten snaps where they get off the blocks a split-second before the linemen trying to block them."

* The penalty that correlates highest with losses is the False Start. (Rams had 3 on Sunday)

It's that last point that is the key to thinking about Rams penalties. Fans need to change the mentality from saying "the Rams have too many penalties" to "the Rams have too many of the wrong kind of penalties". They should be getting most flags in the secondary from aggressive, tight coverage that's producing pressure and turnovers instead of the usual Rams penalty that seems to be just dumb penalties paired with passive play or being stupid.

 

[CoachO]

* The penalty that correlates highest with losses is the False Start. (Rams had 3 on Sunday)

It's that last point that is the key to thinking about Rams penalties. Fans need to change the mentality from saying "the Rams have too many penalties" to "the Rams have too many of the wrong kind of penalties". They should be getting most flags in the secondary from aggressive, tight coverage that's producing pressure and turnovers instead of the usual Rams penalty that seems to be just dumb penalties paired with passive play or being stupid.

This right here is the center of the problem for me. It's the type of penalties, and when they occur that continue to haunt this team.

THREE false start penalties: take a 3rd & 10, and make it 3rd & 15...... 1st 10 to a 1st & 15 ....... and 3rd & 6 to a 3rd & 11 This changes how you call plays, it puts the in a very low % of converting.

The other thing that continues to come up EVERY game, be it with one or the other. A friggin TAUNTING penalty on a Kickoff by someone who didn't even make the play, WHILE YOU ARE LOSING by double digits? I am to the point, regardless of how bad the depth is at the position, if Fisher cut Bates today, I wouldn't have a problem with it. To watch Bates Sunday was embarrassing. He was jumping around after downing a punt. He celebrated NOT getting a penalty called on him for the "big" hit he put on the defenseless punt returner. Seriously?

You want to send a message that the STUPIDITY won't be tolerated any longer, cut one of them.

 

[Zaphod]

It's that last point that is the key to thinking about Rams penalties. Fans need to change the mentality from saying "the Rams have too many penalties" to "the Rams have too many of the wrong kind of penalties". They should be getting most flags in the secondary from aggressive, tight coverage that's producing pressure and turnovers instead of the usual Rams penalty that seems to be just dumb penalties paired with passive play or being stupid.

That pretty much goes without saying. I don't mind a pass interference penalty that prevents a touchdown, rather I question the play calling or execution that put the player in that position in the first place. I also don't mind the type of penalties that could go either way when someone is playing it close to the wire. The penalties called to protect the quarterback really have gone too far as well, because a pass rusher is still going to have to do his job at the end of the day.

As you say, which is what is being implied when we talk about penalties costing the game, as they clearly did kill drives that our anemic offense so desperately needed. The necessity to clean those up are even more amplified by a team that lost not only it's starting quarterback, but it's backup as well, as it's obviously easier to deal with those offensive penalties when you are frequently passing for 8 yards an attempt.

 

[rams56]

Fans are bothered by penalties so this thread keeps popping up, but I think it's pretty clear by now the Rams simply do not care about the penalties and it will never change. Yes, Fisher will pay lip service to the things fans & media want to hear, but actions speak louder than words and Fisher has done absolutely nothing to dissuade the penalties (as far as I know).

I think the truth is the Rams know that penalties just aren't a huge factor in NFL wins/losses. There is almost no correlation between penalties and winning -- many Super Bowl winning teams have among or the most penalties. See http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2003/are-penalties-overrated

However, that's not to say penalties are totally meaningless. It's just like a lot of things in football, penalties are counter-intuitive to what a fan thinks. Football Prospectus 2007 studied it and here's the bullet points:

* Teams with more offensive penalties generally lose more games, but there is no correlation between defensive penalties and losses.

* Defensive penalties often represent strong defensive play that goes just over the line between legal and illegal. As long as penalties are only called every so often, this kind of close play leads to successful defense.

Why? "Specific defensive penalties of course lose games; we’ve all sworn at the television when the cornerback on our favorite team gets flagged for a 50-yard pass interference penalty. Yet overall, there is no correlation between losses and the total of defensive penalties or even the total yardage on defensive penalties. One reason is that defensive penalties often represent good play, not bad. Cornerbacks who play tight coverage may be just on the edge of a penalty on most plays, only occasionally earning a flag. Defensive ends who get a good jump on rushing the passer will gladly trade an encroachment penalty or two for ten snaps where they get off the blocks a split-second before the linemen trying to block them."

* The penalty that correlates highest with losses is the False Start. (Rams had 3 on Sunday)

It's that last point that is the key to thinking about Rams penalties. Fans need to change the mentality from saying "the Rams have too many penalties" to "the Rams have too many of the wrong kind of penalties". They should be getting most flags in the secondary from aggressive, tight coverage that's producing pressure and turnovers instead of the usual Rams penalty that seems to be just dumb penalties paired with passive play or being stupid.

I agree with all of this...and it explains how Ravens and Seahawks let the NFL in penalties the year that they won Super bowls....... as a coach in my career. .... this was my philosophy. ...growing up around here we always taught to "Hit Somebody"...... my teams that i coached the philosophy was hit and block to make plays....reward aggressive play but try to teach a better way......if we got stupid penalties. .... that player either improved his play (demeanor) or lost playing time..... Go Rams......

 

[MrMotes]

Of the top 9 most penalized teams in week one (by yards) 7 were winners. And of the 9 least penalized teams, 7 were losers.

The Rams had the most penalty yards last week (121) and lost. Tampa Bay had the least (15) and they lost too...

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-penalty-yards-differential/2014/

 

[ZigZagRam]

Of the top 9 most penalized teams in week one (by yards) 7 were winners. And of the 9 least penalized teams, 7 were losers.

The Rams had the most penalty yards last week (121) and lost. Tampa Bay had the least (15) and they lost too...

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-penalty-yards-differential/2014/

More talented teams more easily overcome penalties and win more games. For a team like the Rams it's very important to play as close to a clean game as possible.

 

[A320driver]

This right here is the center of the problem for me. It's the type of penalties, and when they occur that continue to haunt this team.

THREE false start penalties: take a 3rd & 10, and make it 3rd & 15...... 1st 10 to a 1st & 15 ....... and 3rd & 6 to a 3rd & 11 This changes how you call plays, it puts the in a very low % of converting.

The other thing that continues to come up EVERY game, be it with one or the other. A friggin TAUNTING penalty on a Kickoff by someone who didn't even make the play, WHILE YOU ARE LOSING by double digits? I am to the point, regardless of how bad the depth is at the position, if Fisher cut Bates today, I wouldn't have a problem with it. To watch Bates Sunday was embarrassing. He was jumping around after downing a punt. He celebrated NOT getting a penalty called on him for the "big" hit he put on the defenseless punt returner. Seriously?

You want to send a message that the STUPIDITY won't be tolerated any longer, cut one of them.

Put Ray Ray right in there with him..Both need to be scolded severely ! The same all pre season, and they have not changed their approach? Maybe a dent in their paycheck will wake them up. One of the problems with a young locker room..Not enough seasoned vets to settle their asses down
Also on another note: When your whole game plan is to establish a good ground game to ease pressure from the pass rush on your back up,QB, these false start penalties will kill any chances of getting that going. My take on one of the factors that led to the breakdown after we were still in the game only 7-10 points down.

 

[RaminExile]

Fans are bothered by penalties so this thread keeps popping up, but I think it's pretty clear by now the Rams simply do not care about the penalties and it will never change. Yes, Fisher will pay lip service to the things fans & media want to hear, but actions speak louder than words and Fisher has done absolutely nothing to dissuade the penalties (as far as I know).

I think the truth is the Rams know that penalties just aren't a huge factor in NFL wins/losses. There is almost no correlation between penalties and winning -- many Super Bowl winning teams have among or the most penalties. See http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2003/are-penalties-overrated

However, that's not to say penalties are totally meaningless. It's just like a lot of things in football, penalties are counter-intuitive to what a fan thinks. Football Prospectus 2007 studied it and here's the bullet points:

* Teams with more offensive penalties generally lose more games, but there is no correlation between defensive penalties and losses.

* Defensive penalties often represent strong defensive play that goes just over the line between legal and illegal. As long as penalties are only called every so often, this kind of close play leads to successful defense.

Why? "Specific defensive penalties of course lose games; we’ve all sworn at the television when the cornerback on our favorite team gets flagged for a 50-yard pass interference penalty. Yet overall, there is no correlation between losses and the total of defensive penalties or even the total yardage on defensive penalties. One reason is that defensive penalties often represent good play, not bad. Cornerbacks who play tight coverage may be just on the edge of a penalty on most plays, only occasionally earning a flag. Defensive ends who get a good jump on rushing the passer will gladly trade an encroachment penalty or two for ten snaps where they get off the blocks a split-second before the linemen trying to block them."

* The penalty that correlates highest with losses is the False Start. (Rams had 3 on Sunday)

It's that last point that is the key to thinking about Rams penalties. Fans need to change the mentality from saying "the Rams have too many penalties" to "the Rams have too many of the wrong kind of penalties". They should be getting most flags in the secondary from aggressive, tight coverage that's producing pressure and turnovers instead of the usual Rams penalty that seems to be just dumb penalties paired with passive play or being stupid.

Agree with this. I don't mind defensive penalties. I mentioned in a previous thread I don't mind seeing us get loads of personal fouls - facemasks, roughing the passer/kicker, unnecessary roughness etc. Get them scared of us. As you point out it usually leads to wins.

The penalties I HATE that this team does a lot of though is - False start - and then illegal formation penalties when our offense cant get lined up properly. That just makes us look incompetent.

 

[V3]

Fisher has a long track record as a head coach. His teams are always bad about penalties. It's not going to change.

 

[MrMotes]

Tennessee was the 2nd most penalized team on Sunday, Buffalo 3rd, it's not as if these uber talented juggernauts overcame penalties to win.

No, it's that, in the scheme of things, penalties aren't a very big factor. Blaming our failure to run the ball on penalties is simply wrong, imo...

 

[ChrisW]

It's a fickle stat. Penalties are felt more in certain times of the game. Say you're finally building momentum, ala the Brian Quick catch and subsequent face mask call on him. That absolutely killed the drive and put us in the hole. Then you're going to get off the field and get the ball back, and a roughing the punter call puts the dagger in your back.

False start penalties hurt more on 3rd and 3, than they do on first and 10. Sure it still hurts, but the effect is greater on third down.