Ram Attack - Jenkins a Liability?
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Dr.RamsFanCK said:
Plus he had a blocked FG, forced a Kaep safety, forced a Wilson pick (on a hit), & has 3 TFLs were on Lynch, Morris, & AP. I would like to see more consistency from him, but it won't come together all at once. His talent is undeniable though. He's in good hands with this coaching staff & Finnegan
No personalization from me. I understand he made some mistakes, and that he was picked on by QBs, and that he violated some rule (along with Givens) that took him out of an important game, but is that any reason to want to ditch the kid before he's even had a chance to fully realize his potential or mature? He made a very public vow to get his mind right after that incident, and so far he has. Can't give him the benefit of the doubt?albefree69 said:
I never said anyone was "afraid" of him. Of course he's going to get targeted more than Finnegan. That's to be expected. The point I made was that his aggressiveness is actually a huge benefit when the defensive line dials up the pressure. As he learns and becomes more intelligent about NFL offenses, he'll probably get smarter about taking chances. And when he finally gets some help over the top, his 'mistakes' (for lack of a better word) won't be as magnified. You know as well as anyone that the safety position was/is a liability. Don't you think they play an integral role in coverage schemes?
I know where he ranks on PFF, but how about some context? His worst game was against Aaron Rodgers. I mean, I'd expect that. His second worst game was in Miami when he got caught looking (rookie mistake) and gave up a TD. That skewed his entire grade. His other bad game was against San Fran, and then the rest were about league average with good games in weeks 1, 2, and 3. Again, I have to ask ... that's enough to want to see him traded? Yeah, you're on an island with this one for sure. But that's fine. It's your prerogative.
4 defensive touchdowns as a rookie is very hard to come by, and even harder to come by from a rookie. The question, I guess, is can he be coached up, and do you have faith in the coaching staff to get the job done? Because he's a prototypical Fisher/Snead player. Athletic freak with good instincts who needs coaching. The alternative (in years past) was to get fairly disciplined players who had already reached the peak of their athletic ability. For me, I prefer the method we're employing now. The potential for payoff is much higher.
Good post X and that is how I see it. JJ may not be the next U.S. Senator but he APPEARS to be a very smart FOOTBALL player and seems to be (or have) his stuff together. He is going to break our hearts at times through his aggressiveness but I'd rather have a guy who guesses wrong once in a while and can overcome it with big plays vs. someone with a constant 10 yard cushion who says "Hey, I never got beat deep".
He is confident, football smart, and has a short-memory (necessary for DBs). IF he can keep his stuff clean off the field I'll go to war with a bunch of Jenkins' vs. the likes of Dex McCleon. :bummed:
He is confident, football smart, and has a short-memory (necessary for DBs). IF he can keep his stuff clean off the field I'll go to war with a bunch of Jenkins' vs. the likes of Dex McCleon. :bummed:
V3 said:
There are a bunch of players who you wouldn't want in your house or neighborhood (for that matter) but they are above average football players. He IS a risk and needs to be monitored but his whole career will be one of held breath. Let's just hope it is worth it!
BTW. Jenkins needs to get better cleats. He just couldn't stay on his feet against Denver. I have to wonder if he was dwelling on that during the game and wasn't entirely focused on anything other than not falling down.
albefree69
Hall of Fame
Keep in mind that the title of this thread is "Jenkins a liability?" and why is that even a question unless there's some fire with that smoke?
I was involved in many similar discussions about Atogwe at The Huddle. A turnover machine whose play otherwise sucked. The Rams finally got rid of him and he faded into obscurity. Does no one see the similarities here? At least Atogwe didn't act like a Diva.
I misstyped when I said I would be in favor of trading Jenkins for a first or second round pick. What I meant to say is that I would be in favor of that if he doesn't come around this year. I see no sign of that happening yet.
As I've already stated, I agree that he has an abundance of talent but I never put all my eggs in the turnover basket. I already got burned doing that with Atogwe. 22 career interceptions in only 6 years and we just cut him. Lasted one year with the Redskins.
I wasn't worried about you personalizing it X. I've had many great discussions with you.
X added:
"The question, I guess, is can he be coached up, and do you have faith in the coaching staff to get the job done? Because he's a prototypical Fisher/Snead player. Athletic freak with good instincts who needs coaching. The alternative (in years past) was to get fairly disciplined players who had already reached the peak of their athletic ability. For me, I prefer the method we're employing now. The potential for payoff is much higher."
Yeah, that's the question and prior to the Bronco game I was counting/hoping for the same thing as you. I too think that Fishers method is the best way but I also don't think (see ROK) that it works all the time.
I was involved in many similar discussions about Atogwe at The Huddle. A turnover machine whose play otherwise sucked. The Rams finally got rid of him and he faded into obscurity. Does no one see the similarities here? At least Atogwe didn't act like a Diva.
I misstyped when I said I would be in favor of trading Jenkins for a first or second round pick. What I meant to say is that I would be in favor of that if he doesn't come around this year. I see no sign of that happening yet.
As I've already stated, I agree that he has an abundance of talent but I never put all my eggs in the turnover basket. I already got burned doing that with Atogwe. 22 career interceptions in only 6 years and we just cut him. Lasted one year with the Redskins.
I wasn't worried about you personalizing it X. I've had many great discussions with you.
X added:
"The question, I guess, is can he be coached up, and do you have faith in the coaching staff to get the job done? Because he's a prototypical Fisher/Snead player. Athletic freak with good instincts who needs coaching. The alternative (in years past) was to get fairly disciplined players who had already reached the peak of their athletic ability. For me, I prefer the method we're employing now. The potential for payoff is much higher."
Yeah, that's the question and prior to the Bronco game I was counting/hoping for the same thing as you. I too think that Fishers method is the best way but I also don't think (see ROK) that it works all the time.
F. Mulder said:
I find his twitter stuff a bit "immature" too.
Its not unlike a lot of NFL guys, tho. Still. I wish it wasn't so.
Let's hope Finnegan and what appears a solidly committed "to do good' Givens continues to influence him.
You are correct, sir. The question is clearly stated, so there's no problem now that we're over the initial shock of your first post in this thread. lol. I have to disagree about Atogwe though. His coverage skills were very good, and using your preferred method of player evaluation (PFF), he ranked positively (in pass coverage) over 90% of the time over the course of 3 years (2008-2010). He only had 3 bad games out of 44. And IIRC, he didn't get cut, but instead became a free agent who didn't fit the preferred requirements for a Spags defense. So they took the same money and paid Mikell instead. But that's besides the point.albefree69 said:
I don't think this second year is enough time to fully evaluate him either. For me, it takes 3 years to really get a handle on how a player is going to turn out, but Fisher seems to think it's the second year that the lightbulb comes on, so we'll see I suppose. I *believe* he'll continue to mature, and I like how he's willing to learn. Your point about Rok is well taken, but he just didn't have the internal fire that Jenkins has. Kinda apples to peaches there, IMO.
Anyway ... good convo.
albefree69
Hall of Fame
Remember our atrocious run D? He was a safety and not a CB after all. Also keep in mind that we cut him.
However, you're probably right about the 3 year period. My problem is that I'm still extremely mad about the Bronco game. That wasn't the first example of that kind of selfish behavior either.
And yeah, the conversation didn't turn out that bad. :bg:
Thanks all for keeping it reasonable. I didn't answer all your posts cause there's only one of me but I read them and tried to incorporate many of the things you said in my replies. I see the validity of your position but I see the validity of mine too. I just hope I'm wrong again.
albefree69
Hall of Fame
Sort of. I changed that to this:
"I misstyped when I said I would be in favor of trading Jenkins for a first or second round pick. What I meant to say is that I would be in favor of that if he doesn't come around this year. I see no sign of that happening yet."
I then let X talk me into thinking I should give him 3 years. I went kicking and screaming though.
Yeah, still not seeing it. Atogwe was hardly the reason for our atrocious run defense during that span when you take into account the sieve of a D-line. And going back to your criteria for evaluating him (PFF), he didn't rank poorly in that regard either. He was a better pass defender though, so I'll give you that. And again, he didn't get cut. He was a free agent who Washington signed because the Rams didn't match the sheet. It wasn't because he was a liability (IMO), but more because Mikkel was more ideally suited for Spags' defense as a box safety (as well as being a FOSS). Had his defense been more solid with the front 7, we probably would have kept him, but I don't know that for sure - especially with the FOSS consideration. Not saying Atogwe was a great all-purpose safety or anything ... just sayin'. And I get your point that his "flash" wasn't enough when you want a safety to be great at all of his responsibilities. So, yeah. I understand the parallel.albefree69 said:
bluecoconuts
Legend
I'm not worried about Jenkins.... His twitter was kind of stupid, but I didn't see anything out of the norm compared to other guys his age. Some guys are more mature than others, I see guys my age (a few years older) that act the same way. They don't get in trouble, they just come off stupid. No different than people in college who are paying to be there and not going to class, not trying, and having a poor attitude towards everything. Jenkins may have looked like an idiot, but he wasn't getting DUI's or doing drugs and getting in trouble.
As for his ability as a player, he does go for the homerun play probably a little too often. However that's something that can and will be coached up. As long as Jenkins has the heart to play and do what's right he'll continue to grow and improve, the talent is obviously there. I have faith that the team has enough leadership ability to help him out there.
As for his ability as a player, he does go for the homerun play probably a little too often. However that's something that can and will be coached up. As long as Jenkins has the heart to play and do what's right he'll continue to grow and improve, the talent is obviously there. I have faith that the team has enough leadership ability to help him out there.
albefree69
Hall of Fame
I was going by this:
I think you're wrong about him being a FA. He became a FA after we cut him. He was a Ram for 6 years which means he was on his second contract.
Throwing my own bible in my face (PFF) is a low blow. :lol:
I remember it differently but I do remember the horrible LBs and D-line players. Atogwe was making 8 million per year and we cut him because he wasn't worth the money.
I think you're wrong about him being a FA. He became a FA after we cut him. He was a Ram for 6 years which means he was on his second contract.
<a class="postlink" href="http://bleacherreport.com/articles/616797-safety-first-2011-free-agency-bob-sanders-or-oj-atogwe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6167 ... -oj-atogwe</a>
Throwing my own bible in my face (PFF) is a low blow. :lol:
I remember it differently but I do remember the horrible LBs and D-line players. Atogwe was making 8 million per year and we cut him because he wasn't worth the money.