Prospects that make you pass on OL at 10

[jjab360]

SPARQ means about as much to me as the Combine, i.e., nothing at all. Would you really consider Carl Davis and Grady Jarrett better prospects than Williams? Would you consider Darius Philon and Louis Trinca-Pasat to be better than Danny Shelton?

It means nothing. Absolutely nothing. I pay attention to their tape, and what I saw on tape was Williams dominating everyone that he played in the Pac-12 (which was arguably the best conference in college sports last year) and out of conference at all positions on the line. Physically, he's a freak of nature. On tape, he's even more freakish, and he's making something happen every time he's on the field. He's instinctive as hell and has a very advanced pass-rushing inventory for his age (he's only twenty years old right now and won't be old enough to legally drink until June 20th).

Quite honestly, I don't see why people consider him to be a lesser prospect. He's better than Cooper. Better than White. Better than the quarterbacks. The only defensive player I'd take in the first round in this class. I'm not at all saying that he's a right end in this league, but he could certainly play left end at a very high level.

Just because one player is more athletic than another, doesn't mean he's a better prospect. There's a lot more to playing football than that. But athletically, no, Williams is objectively not a physical freak.

 

[jrry32]

1) Nope.

Did you see him against Georgia? He got victimized in that game.

Yes, he's a great athlete. That's apparent on the field. But his instincts/ability to read and react are not great. And his angles aren't great.

I just don't see a special player. I see a guy that can be great for you when you ask him to blitz or cover man to man or attack in a specific way. But when you ask him to drop into zone coverage or read and react to running plays...he's just not that effective. Because he seems to process things slowly mentally and has major issues with taking false steps. Plus, he's not a guy that fights off blockers the way you expect a guy his size to. He runs around blocks. Not a guy that really stacks and sheds.

2) I don't believe that I value WRs highly. And I even value LTs over WRs (Remember, I wanted Greg Robinson over Sammy Watkins last year). But, in the top ten of the draft, I value a potential stud WR over OLinemen who are not LTs.

You're going to have to explain that one to me. The WR position is more reliant on their supporting cast than any other position in football.

3) No problem at all. I believe that good run blockers/average pass protectors are far easier to find than quality pass protectors. Shoot, even Barksdale does a fine job run blocking.

Barksdale is a solid player. I'd like to see him back with us on a cheap short term prove it deal. They might be easier to find but I still wouldn't call it easy to find them in the mid rounds.

For the life of me, I'll never understand how people who have watched this game for years, can't see that all you need to build a successful OLine are a good LT and 4 other average to above average players on the same page working together as a unit. And ESPECIALLY, on a team that plans to run the ball and do a better job of getting the ball out quickly.

I do see that. But I also see a WR corp with the talent and depth to be plenty successful too with competent QBing.

I'll also never understand how one cannot see that, unless that non LT is one of the few ELITE (ala Larry Allen, Steve Hutchinson, Alan Faneca), the difference in the overall effect on an offense between having a good non LT OLineman vs. a merely above average non LT OLineman is negligible. Again, the key is having 5 of these guys working together and gelling as a unit.

I wouldn't call it negligible. But like any other unit, it's the unit as a whole that matters.

It's the QB and the Offensive Coordinator that are the main key to an offenses success. Didn't we all watch the GSOT prove this to be true? Or were Gruttadauria, Nutten, and Miller top notch so-called premium OLinemen?

Nah. But they were well coached. And the GSOT had more than a QB and an OC.

 

[Memphis Ram]

@jrry32

Didn't see the Georgia game, but it doesn't matter to me. Peat had a rough time vs. Utah (Orchard). Scherff had a rough time vs. Maryland. Clemmings looked like he didn't even belong at the Senior Bowl practices. It happens.

WRs being more reliant upon their supporting cast means little to me when it comes to choosing between a potential stud at the position vs. a non LT on draft day. I wouldn't pass on Dez Bryant because Adam Timmerman can be had. The former is a matchup problem that can keep Defensive Coordinators and DBs up at night. The latter does not have the same effect.

I didn't limit my "easier to find" comment to mid rounds of the draft like you have done. There are still some available in free agency like Barksdale and Blalock for example.

I see a WR corp with talent and depth, too, but I wouldn't pass on a potential upgrade because of it. Besides, one WRs is coming off a significant injury and is entering the final year of his contract (Quick). And another has played his first injury free season since his rookie year (Britt). And another has proven to be nothing more than mere gadget guy so far.

Simply put, while the GSOT had more than a QB and OC, the GSOT isn't the GSOT with Shaun Hill and Brian Schottenhiemer manning those positions.

 

[jrry32]

@jrry32

Didn't see the Georgia game, but it doesn't matter to me. Peat had a rough time vs. Utah (Orchard). Scherff had a rough time vs. Maryland. Clemmings looked like he didn't even belong at the Senior Bowl practices. It happens.

IMO, it should. Those games you referenced are all key parts of the evaluation of each of those prospects. They highlight the flaws in their games and in Scherff's case, it's convincing evidence that he's not a NFL LT.

Bad games happen...but they're the games you really have to find a way to watch because they give you so much vital information.

WRs being more reliant upon their supporting cast means little to me when it comes to choosing between a potential stud at the position vs. a non LT on draft day. I wouldn't pass on Dez Bryant because Adam Timmerman can be had. The former is a matchup problem that can keep Defensive Coordinators and DBs up at night. The latter does not have the same effect.

I'm not too concerned about what DCs and DBs are doing at night. I'm concerned about what's happening on game day. And I don't see a greater impact by WRs than I do for OGs. They all fall in that same category.

I didn't limit my "easier to find" comment to mid rounds of the draft like you have done. There are still some available in free agency like Barksdale and Blalock for example.

And I wish the Rams would go get one or both. But right now, they don't appear to be in any hurry.

I see a WR corp with talent and depth, too, but I wouldn't pass on a potential upgrade because of it. Besides, one WRs is coming off a significant injury and is entering the final year of his contract (Quick). And another has played his first injury free season since his rookie year (Britt). And another has proven to be nothing more than mere gadget guy so far.

Nor would I either. Nor would I pass on a potential upgrade to the OL.

Simply put, while the GSOT had more than a QB and OC, the GSOT isn't the GSOT with Shaun Hill and Brian Schottenhiemer manning those positions.

You'll get no argument from me. No other position in football has the impact on a game that a QB does.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I'm not too concerned about what DCs and DBs are doing at night. I'm concerned about what's happening on game day. And I don't see a greater impact by WRs than I do for OGs. They all fall in that same category.

Actually, I'm not concerned about who has the greater impact between WRs vs. OGs when it comes to the NFL draft. That's something you brought up in response to my post.

Draftwise, that guard would have to CLEARLY have to be the best player available in order to avoid such a poor use of draft capital (#10 overall selection) as I agree with the Polian/Dungy draft philosophy that high draft selections should be used on someone who touches the ball (besides center) or sacks the QB (unless he's a LT).

 

[jrry32]

Actually, I'm not concerned about who has the greater impact between WRs vs. OGs when it comes to the NFL draft. That's something you brought up in response to my post.

Draftwise, that guard would have to CLEARLY have to be the best player available in order to avoid such a poor use of draft capital (#10 overall selection) as I agree with the Polian/Dungy draft philosophy that high draft selections should be used on someone who touches the ball (besides center) or sacks the QB (unless he's a LT).

A philosophy that ended up resulting in a lot of years of bad drafting and Indy's OL falling apart near the end of Manning's tenure.

Hell, the high valuation of the LT position is also outdated. The evolution of offenses have devalued the position. It's not the 1990s anymore. The deep drops and vertically oriented offenses just aren't much in use anymore. The horizontal spreads and quick passing offenses of today's game have increased the value of the interior at the cost of the tackle position.

The value and impact of each OL position has changed. But the thing about old school thinking is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Memphis Ram]

A philosophy that ended up resulting in a lot of years of bad drafting and Indy's OL falling apart near the end of Manning's tenure.

Hell, the high valuation of the LT position is also outdated. The evolution of offenses have devalued the position. It's not the 1990s anymore. The deep drops and vertically oriented offenses just aren't much in use anymore. The horizontal spreads and quick passing offenses of today's game have increased the value of the interior at the cost of the tackle position.

The value and impact of each OL position has changed. But the thing about old school thinking is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A draft strategy that got him 11 of 12 seasons of double digit wins during his Indy tenure thanks to 1st round selections like Peyton Manning, Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Dallas Clark, and Bob Sanders. And which also had his team selecting at the bottom of the 1st round almost every year but still coming up with contributors like solid contributors like Joseph Addai (30th overall), Anthony Gonzalez (32nd overall), & Donald Brown (27th overall) while they gearing up for their shot at Super Bowl glory each year. (I wish the Rams had more contributors when they were selecting at the bottom or rounds when they were winning). In fact, the only 1st round Olinemen he selected during those double digit winning seasons was his final choice of LT Anthony Castonzo who is currently attempting to protect Andrew Luck's blindside though he got off to a poor start like most rookies.

But, keep beating the drum about the valuation of OLineman since that's the debate you want to have. (BTW, you again appear to be going on and on as if I'm saying that the Oline shouldn't be addressed at all or if I don't believe that interior lineman aren't important, which isn't the case at all.) In the end, it still means next to nothing to me in regards to what the Rams should do with a top 10 selection in the draft. And especially in this draft class.

 

[CGI_Ram]

opcorn:

 

[jrry32]

A draft strategy that got him 11 of 12 seasons of double digit wins during his Indy tenure thanks to 1st round selections like Peyton Manning, Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Dallas Clark, and Bob Sanders.

You could have stopped at Peyton Manning. Look at Ryan Grigson there now. He's getting double digit wins every year with Andrew Luck...despite Grigson being a pretty bad GM.

And which also had his team selecting at the bottom of the 1st round almost every year but still coming up with contributors like solid contributors like Joseph Addai (30th overall), Anthony Gonzalez (32nd overall), & Donald Brown (27th overall) while they gearing up for their shot at Super Bowl glory each year. (I wish the Rams had more contributors when they were selecting at the bottom or rounds when they were winning). In fact, the only 1st round Olinemen he selected during those double digit winning seasons was his final choice of LT Anthony Castonzo who is currently attempting to protect Andrew Luck's blindside though he got off to a poor start like most rookies.

Except none of those guys were solid contributors. Addai had a couple good years but he was a product of the system. Gonzalez and Brown were busts.

The only first round OL he took was Castonzo...and it was no surprise that by the end of Manning's tenure, the Colts had a bad OL. Manning's incredible ability made it passable.

But, keep beating the drum about the valuation of OLineman since that's the debate you want to have. (BTW, you again appear to be going on and on as if I'm saying that the Oline shouldn't be addressed at all or if I don't believe that interior lineman aren't important, which isn't the case at all.) In the end, it still means next to nothing to me in regards to what the Rams should do with a top 10 selection in the draft. And especially in this draft class.

I will keep beating that drum. We don't have Peyton Manning to bail us out. We can't use an outdated model like the Colts did and rely on one of the greatest QBs of all time to keep it all together.

The Rams should take value. They shouldn't concern themselves with rigid rules. In fact, they should take advantage of other team's rigid rules. If other teams are undervaluing certain positions, use it to come away with a superior talent. The only position worth overvaluing is the QB position.

 

[Memphis Ram]

@jrry32

And whether or not Addai was a product of the system is meaningless. He was a Colt and contributed. Gonzalez was actually pretty good until concussions did him in. Not Polians fault. Brown may not have contributed as much during Polian's tenure as much as he would have liked though.

Again, it's no surprise that the Colts OLine needed work (and other areas) because of the freaking salary cap with the team trying to keep it's core together while they went for the Championship ever year. Either way, the OLines were good enough for over a decade of double digit winning seasons. And all without the use of a 1st round pick that didn't play LT.

OK. The Rams don't have Peyton Manning to bail them out (which goes to my earlier point in regards to the QB and OC being the main keys to an offenses success, by the way).

Along those lines, I've watched the, let's say, non-outdated model fail, so far, in Tennesse.

As stated in another thread, they tried to go overboard to build a great OLine by adding an expensive top rated,young, free agent guard (Andy Levitre) and the #10 overall draft selection (Chance Warmack) to a line which featured an All-Pro LT (Michael Roos) and good RT (David Stewart) and the offense still stunk out loud. The following season they even used the #11 overall selection on OT Taylor Lewan and the smell on offense remained and remains, but nobody talks about them when calling for this OLine build up using a 1st rounder.

Or as also stated earlier, the 2009- 2010 Browns who had 4 above average to very good (or even one great OLineman) in LT Joe Thomas, C Alex Mack, free agent pickups LG Eric Steinbach & RG Floyd "Porkchop" Womack, and a solid RT John St. Clair. One of the better Oline groups we've seen over the years. And those Browns offenses still hovered around the bottom of the league in scoring points.

Guess those teams didn't have Manning to bail them out either. Nor Tony Romo, who seems to be forgotten by the masses who say that the Rams should follow the Cowboys example (Zack Martin) even though the Cowboys had a strong offense before he even got there.

Finally for Polian's methods to be considered outdated, there still has only been TWO interior linemen selected in the top 10 in the last 5 years (goes back longer, but I fear that pointing that out would quality as outdated). And of those two players (Jonathan Coooper & Chance Warmack), one is currently on the highway to Bustville and the other was a few car lengths behind him prior to perhaps taking the exit ramp during the last 8 games of his 2nd season. And even still he's been average to above average and outplayed by Warford who was taken in the 3rd round of the same draft class. Meanwhile outdated, undrafted free agents guards Dan Connolly and Ryan Wendell earned Super Bowl rings just a few months ago with their 1st round LT Nate Solder.

In the end, I'm still a BPA within reason guy and we are both speaking in generalities even though teams select players and not positions. And there isn't a player that plays OLine that is worthy of a top ten selection in this draft class, IMO. And especially, a non LT.

 

[blackbart]

Williams, Mariota, Winston, White, Cooper

That's about it for me. I'd take White over Cooper just because I like his size better, the difference in the two seems negligible.

 

[DaveFan'51]

Ok! Let's see, In position order;
WR:
* Cooper
* White
* Parker
RB:
* Gurley
* Gordon
DE:
* Williams ( More as a DT)
* Ray ( More as a LB)
DT:
* Shelton
* Armstead
* X. Cooper
* M. Brown
OLB:
* Flowers
* Beasley
* Orchard
* D. Hunter
MLB:
* S. Anthony
Safety:
* L. Collins
* C. Prewitt
CB:
* T. Waynes
* B. Jones
* P.J.Williams
* Josh Shaw
* K. Johnson
I guess that covers all the Bases!!

 

[DCH]

Cooper, Williams, Beasley, Fowler, Mariota, Winston, Waynes. Any one of those guys I would consider on par with or better than any OL in the draft.

I'm not saying that if any one of these guys is there, to take him instead of an OL, but if we take any of these over an OL, I can totally dig it.