Peter King: MMQB - 12/1/14

[Boffo97]

Perfectly put and totally true. There's something about anonymity that brings out the worst in some people. A simple solution would be to have real names with phone numbers and addresses for every poster. Until that happens, and it most likely never will, the trolling and scumbaggery will continue.

While I don't think I'm a troll and hopefully not many here consider me one, that would make me pretty nervous. I've been cyberstalked before.

The forums for World of Warcraft once considered tying real names to posts of their forum posters and the community pretty much overwhelmingly squashed that one before it happened.

 

[-X-]

If this incredibly minor act sways ticket sales negatively, then imo, those people were never really fans in the first place and St. Louis doesn't deserve the Rams. I know this line of thinking won't go over well, but if your damn politics means so much to you (and I'm not talking about anything extreme really) that you'd abandon a team......well I ain't sorry to see you go.

As far as what others teams player's have done in the past....well crap. This pales in comparison.

And the public opinion online anyway is infinitesimally small and mostly made up of the most extreme of audiences. The cesspool of trolls the internet spawned is incalculable.

That's a good point, and excellent usage of the word infinitesimally. Tons of people were going to abandon the Rams over Michael Sam, so I guess they'll re-abandon them over this demonstration. My main objection with the receivers' actions is that they used the NFL (their employer) to do it. I'm all for freedom of expression, but I'm also a proponent of fiduciary responsibility. Playing in the NFL isn't a right - it's a privilege. And for them to abuse that, I think, is not so smart. I don't tune in on Sundays to see where my favorite team lands on a sensitive political or social issue. I tune in to see them entertain me. And that's what they signed up for.

 

[Boffo97]

That's a good point, and excellent usage of the word infinitesimally. Tons of people were going to abandon the Rams over Michael Sam, so I guess they'll re-abandon them over this demonstration. My main objection with the receivers' actions is that they used the NFL (their employer) to do it. I'm all for freedom of expression, but I'm also a proponent of fiduciary responsibility. Playing in the NFL isn't a right - it's a privilege. And for them to abuse that, I think, is not so smart. I don't tune in on Sundays to see where my favorite team lands on a sensitive political or social issue. I tune in to see them entertain me. And that's what they signed up for.

I'd have to think that this and Michael Sam are apples and oranges though. Sam engaged in a different form of sex life off the field, and for the most part kept it to himself, just like I hope all players keep their sex lives to themselves. On the field, he was just another player.

These players chose to make a statement on the field that was based on a falsehood (that Brown was attempting to surrender) and came across as disrespectful to those involved with or know someone involved with law enforcement.

 

[-X-]

I'd have to think that this and Michael Sam are apples and oranges though.

Not in the context in which I used them. I was merely agreeing with the idea that 'some' people will fight to the death over things that they disagree with and swear off their favorite team as a demonstration of their disgust. And I've actually seen posters do just that over two completely unrelated situations.

 

[rambone]

I don't think we knew any facts before hand. Much of the initial story came from Dorian Johnson, who isn't really credible and nobody can find right now.

I still don't know what happened, but several eyewitnesses and the physical evidence supports the officer's story.

To the contrary, several eyewitness and physical evidence not introduced by the "Prosecutor" discount the officer's story, who by the way, was never challenged or cross-examined on the veracity of his story.

I commend these players, their bravery and their commitment to the community and to the family that lost a son. This is what they should do.

 

[-X-]

So, how about them Rams?

I wasn't entirely on board with Fisher's desire to draft another RB, but what the hell did I know? It's kinda like the Saints who kept taking RB after RB after RB in an attempt to get someone to make Brees that much more dangerous. Paulie likey.

 

[Faceplant]

So, how about them Rams?

I wasn't entirely on board with Fisher's desire to draft another RB, but what the hell did I know? It's kinda like the Saints who kept taking RB after RB after RB in an attempt to get someone to make Brees that much more dangerous. Paulie likey.

Keep drafing em til ya find the "guy". Looks like they found him...

 

[WvuIN02]

That's the beautiful thing to me. Right before the American flag is waved, members of the Rams used their Constitutional right to profess free speech. In the end, it's just an opinion and it hurt nobody. In other countries around the world these men would be detained or worse.....and by the way, that doesn't mean you have to agree with them or even that I agree with them....but I respect the right for them to have their own opinions.

God bless America. Go Rams.

 

[ChrisW]

So, how about them Rams?

I wasn't entirely on board with Fisher's desire to draft another RB, but what the hell did I know? It's kinda like the Saints who kept taking RB after RB after RB in an attempt to get someone to make Brees that much more dangerous. Paulie likey.

So are we going to trade one of our RBs for more draft capital after the Barron trade? Perhaps Stacy for a 5th, maybe 4th if we're lucky.

 

[Alan]

Athos noting the usual ignorance of the teeming masses:
The problem is mistakenly associating the "hands up" gesture to only apply to the Brown case. That's a miscalculation and error. I can't put words in the protestors mouths, but to me, it holds dual meaning: "fed up with the status quo of police brutality against minorities" and "displays of innocence and callous disregard of police" which occurs.

Maybe or maybe not in the Brown case, but most assuredly in other cases.

The other problem is the mistaken assumption of what a grand jury can and cannot do. A grand jury finding isn't a declaration of innocence or guilt. Never has been.

Some astute observations brother. That "hands up" gesture is even being used overseas now. Not something we as a country should be proud of having spawned.

What that finding by the Grand Jury does mean is that barring a new set of eyes looking at the murder, no one will be brought to justice for the crime. So it is in essence a de facto finding of innocence. For now.

 

[SaneRamsFan]

That's a good point, and excellent usage of the word infinitesimally. Tons of people were going to abandon the Rams over Michael Sam, so I guess they'll re-abandon them over this demonstration. My main objection with the receivers' actions is that they used the NFL (their employer) to do it. I'm all for freedom of expression, but I'm also a proponent of fiduciary responsibility. Playing in the NFL isn't a right - it's a privilege. And for them to abuse that, I think, is not so smart. I don't tune in on Sundays to see where my favorite team lands on a sensitive political or social issue. I tune in to see them entertain me. And that's what they signed up for.

I was at the game (always am) and that pretty much sums up my feelings. But at the same time its their God given right to express whatever they want and I (we) will get over it.

 

[Stranger]

The other problem is the mistaken assumption of what a grand jury can and cannot do. A grand jury finding isn't a declaration of innocence or guilt. Never has been.

right, it's the prosecution showing that they have sufficient cause for a trial. Guilt or Innocence was never decided in this case, as these are LEGAL terms that can only come out of a trial through a judge or jury decision.

"fed up with the status quo of police brutality against minorities" and "displays of innocence and callous disregard of police" which occurs.

Exactly.

 

[shovelpass]

I just want to commend everyone on this thread for being so civil about an emotional and controversial topic. It might not seem like much, but I have seen some horrible posts on other sports sites about what transpired before the game. Cheers to you!

 

[shovelpass]

So are we going to trade one of our RBs for more draft capital after the Barron trade? Perhaps Stacy for a 5th, maybe 4th if we're lucky.

Is it wrong that I don't want him to be traded? I like the guy, and want him to succeed, but it looks like Tre has the starting job locked up. Now that Fisher knows what he has in Mason he can find a way to use all of his backs efficiently next season. I would like to see more Watts in the final 4 games, he could be a solid RB also.

 

[blue4]

You may not have known any of the facts but I did. No, there were no eye witnesses that came forward who disagreed with what all the actual eye witnesses saw. All 4 of them. There was one woman who simply repeated what the suspect cop told her but that's it for the "other side of the story." I'm not going to debate this with you because it's obvious that (judging by the post I'm replying too) you are unaware of many, if not most, of the facts surrounding this murder.

Like I said earlier, I wish more players had shown their support.

I don't see how anyone outside of the investigation can claim that they knew all the facts.

 

[Mackeyser]

Justice Scalia in 1992 clearly articulated in a case the role of the Grand Jury.

The DA in this case used it wrong. Moreover, in 2012, in over 160,000 presentations to the federal Grand Jury... on ELEVEN...11...didn't return indictments.

I would seriously doubt those numbers are skewed much more on the state level. As the saying goes, "you can indict a ham sandwich." The role of the DA is to present the charges and walk the Grand Jury through the charges AS THE PROSECUTOR. As Justice Scalia points out, the Grand Jury is NOT the venue for exculpatory evidence, nor is the Grand Jury the venue for exoneration.

The DA's assistants asked leading questions such as "so, you felt your life was in danger?" That is prosecutorial? WTF? (btw, anyone who doesn't understand that the DA should have recused himself just does not understand this case. That's not even up for debate. And this Grand Jury was handled totally different than how Grand Juries are typically handled on purpose expressly so that Wilson would go free, expressly as the DA wanted from the start. Again, if anyone doesn't understand that, I can explain the mechanics, as can a few attys here, but it's really not up for debate. It just is.)

And when Darren Wilson's account from the day was inconsistent with the physical evidence (the measurements were just flat wrong by a LOT as Federal prosecutors will almost assuredly point out in the coming Civil Rights suit. I didn't think it would be filed, but the more I read the evidence, the more I think they'll file), they did NOT confront him about his inconsistent testimony or possible witness tampering.

And the BIGGER issue is that black and brown kids are killed without regard. Just 4 miles from where Michael Brown was killed, a young man stole 2 sodas. He was very upset about something. St. Louis County officers rolled up opened their doors, drew their weapons and stayed behind cover. They man was shouting. He took a few steps at the officers and they opened up on him. At least 12 shots. Within 23 seconds of rolling up on a situation and without any ability to ascertain or determine what was going on, the unarmed man was dead. I can post the link in the other thing if anyone is interested.

Now, contrast that with several stories of belligerent white-men openly carrying loaded semi-automatics or the young man who in Texas was carrying a loaded shotgun. The officer repeatedly asked him for the weapon or at least for him to UNLOAD the weapon because he was creating a disturbance. He repeatedly refused. The officer, on video...walked away. Now... can anyone tell me that a black male could hold a loaded shotgun anywhere in America even TALK to an officer, let alone refuse to surrender it? A black man was shot in a WalMart for holding a toy gun recently.

So, while the Michael Brown thing is a thing and it's very real for a LOT of reasons, it's also endemic of a very real and pervasive white privilege that exists whether folks acknowledge it or not. Just look at the War on Drugs. Whites use drugs as much if not more than minorities and yet incarceration rates are vastly skewed. Policing in inner cities is really like prison and more so now than ever. I remember talking to an old-school LA cop who used to work Long Beach-Compton/Watts and he hated how so police in his own department (and this was 20 years ago) less and less resorted to non-lethal means of taking folks to jail. HE, a short, very muscled, scarred up, Korean, veteran cop who'd worked some very tough neighborhoods called these other cops cowards from between gritted teeth. He was so intense about it that I admit I was a little uncomfortable listening to him.

Our Rams engaging in such a gesture is courageous. It uses the venue to shine a light on the larger injustice that is ever present in our justice system.

It reminds me of another moment that was iconic and people complained bitterly about it at the time:

People forget at the time he raised his hand (and while they complained) that there were bunches of counties in this country were he'd have been killed for trying to register to vote.

People forget or don't want to know that black people get shot and sometimes killed doing things others do with impunity and without thinking. Cop asks for ID. You going to reach into your pocket? You going to go back into your car for your registration? Well THIS is why the hands up gesture is so important. The incidents in Ferguson on in South Carolina aren't isolated just like the Rodney King beating wasn't an isolated incident, it just took video for folks outside of the inner city to really believe that cops would actually circle up and beat a guy for no damn reason and then charge him. Here's the footage, so you all can see exactly how quickly it goes south.

I'll just say this. Occasionally, sports and society clash more in the social venue. It's why I really believe that sports is the crucible in which we distill human virtue. And we often look to sport to find the very virtue we can't seem to make happen in society. There is LESS racism in the NFL than society (the Riley Cooper's of the NFL being more of an exception to the rule) and that's a damn good thing. And it's often why folks "escape" to sports... I get it. But when these things clash, I, for one, am glad because to ignore it would be to ignore Jackie Robinson, Tommie Smith, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, and hundreds of other athletes who helped PUSH our nation forward.

And, sadly, it seems.... there's more pushing to do. One day we'll all just be people. Rams fans. Cowboy fans (God forbid)... until then, stuff like this will happen until we actually DO something about it. (/end rant and no more novels, I promise)

 

[Stranger]

You may not have known any of the facts but I did. No, there were no eye witnesses that came forward who disagreed with what all the actual eye witnesses saw. All 4 of them. There was one woman who simply repeated what the suspect cop told her but that's it for the "other side of the story." I'm not going to debate this with you because it's obvious that (judging by the post I'm replying too) you are unaware of many, if not most, of the facts surrounding this murder.

Like I said earlier, I wish more players had shown their support.

Tell me more...

 

[Stranger]

the BIGGER issue is that black and brown kids are killed without regard. Just 4 miles from where Michael Brown was killed, a young man stole 2 sodas. He was very upset about something. St. Louis County officers rolled up opened their doors, drew their weapons and stayed behind cover. They man was shouting. He took a few steps at the officers and they opened up on him. At least 12 shots. Within 23 seconds of rolling up on a situation and without any ability to ascertain or determine what was going on, the unarmed man was dead. I can post the link in the other thing if anyone is interested.

Now, contrast that with several stories of belligerent white-men openly carrying loaded semi-automatics or the young man who in Texas was carrying a loaded shotgun. The officer repeatedly asked him for the weapon or at least for him to UNLOAD the weapon because he was creating a disturbance. He repeatedly refused. The officer, on video...walked away. Now... can anyone tell me that a black male could hold a loaded shotgun anywhere in America even TALK to an officer, let alone refuse to surrender it? A black man was shot in a WalMart for holding a toy gun recently.

So, while the Michael Brown thing is a thing and it's very real for a LOT of reasons, it's also endemic of a very real and pervasive white privilege that exists whether folks acknowledge it or not. Just look at the War on Drugs. Whites use drugs as much if not more than minorities and yet incarceration rates are vastly skewed. Policing in inner cities is really like prison and more so now than ever. I remember talking to an old-school LA cop who used to work Long Beach-Compton/Watts and he hated how so police in his own department (and this was 20 years ago) less and less resorted to non-lethal means of taking folks to jail. HE, a short, very muscled, scarred up, Korean, veteran cop who'd worked some very tough neighborhoods called these other cops cowards from between gritted teeth

Thanks for posting.

 

[Stranger]

Shot for a seat belt violation!

The victim apologizes to the cop, after being shot, for having reached back in the car for his drivers license.

The training of police officers has to change.

 

[ChrisW]

Some astute observations brother. That "hands up" gesture is even being used overseas now. Not something we as a country should be proud of having spawned.

What that finding by the Grand Jury does mean is that barring a new set of eyes looking at the murder, no one will be brought to justice for the crime. So it is in essence a de facto finding of innocence. For now.

Alan, I see you use the term murder. And I don't think that's a mistake on your part. You seem to think that Wilson should be found guilty of killing Michael Brown.

Now I'm not too keen on how the legal process works. But I have served on a jury before. As far as witness testimony, that all seems secondary to reports such as the coroner reports. Doesn't the evidence released to the public seem to corroborate Mr. Wilson's story?