Paper thin depth has me pessimistic

[leoram]

I wonder if many here skipped over all the positives in my OP. Oh well...

It takes time to develop a system and a team with legit depth, filling fhe roster with talent that "fits". That's really my point. In a couple years the roster will turn into something reliable. But for now, other than perhaps a WR or DB, ONE SINGLE LOSS could be disastrous to these groups...QB, OL, DL, TE, LB, and to a lesser extent RB, and CB.

 

[Soul Surfer]

I wonder if many here skipped over all the positives in my OP. Oh well...

Hmmm.... it might have been your overly optimistic thread title.

 

[OldSchool]

I wonder if many here skipped over all the positives in my OP. Oh well...

It takes time to develop a system and a team with legit depth, filling fhe roster with talent that "fits". That's really my point. In a couple years the roster will turn into something reliable. But for now, other than perhaps a WR or DB, ONE SINGLE LOSS could be disastrous to these groups...QB, OL, DL, TE, LB, and to a lesser extent RB, and CB.

I read your post I and many others it seems just feel you and others over estimate the depth of other teams. You say one loss in a position group could be disastrous but the same is true for every team.

 

[LARAMSinFeb.]

I read your post I and many others it seems just feel you and others over estimate the depth of other teams. You say one loss in a position group could be disastrous but the same is true for every team.

I follow the Redskins closely and I can say they have built up a lot of quality depth, and I think that's critical for quality teams. Hopefully we're headed in that direction; aren't the Rams one of the youngest, if not the youngest team in the league?

 

[fanotodd]

LeoRam:

For starters, compliments to your Steely Dan pic. I'm a big fan.

The OL depth is always a concern. This year is no different. No team is a solid 2 deep. If they are, then they get on the phone and start dealing for other positions of need and/or draft picks to build the roster.

The rub is that an OL rarely makes it thru the season w/o having to use at least a couple of depth guys and for significant playing time.

This is the first year of a new regime. There is only so much roster churning they can do. Having said that, I think the Rams did a good job this off season--much better than last year. Whitworth can end up being an amazing pickup and Sullivan could be an upgrade over Barnes if he can stay on the field.

 

[OldSchool]

I follow the Redskins closely and I can say they have built up a lot of quality depth, and I think that's critical for quality teams. Hopefully we're headed in that direction; aren't the Rams one of the youngest, if not the youngest team in the league?

Interesting you bring them up. The biggest area's the Rams are criticized for not having depth is OLine and DLine. The Reskins top 5 backups, at least the primary backup listed at each position, have a grand total of 8 games started in their careers. Two rookies a 3rd year vet that's never played a game and 2 tackles one has 2 starts the other Ty Nsekhe has 6 starts in 5 years 4 of which were last year.

Compare that to the Rams who's top 5 backups have Wichmann who in his two years has started 18 games, Eldrenkamp a rookie, Murphy has never started, Donnall who's started 6 games in his two years and Blythe who started 1 game his rookie year.

Advantage Rams

Dline the Redskins have the advantage with just Ziggy Hood over the Rams.

Secondary? Aside from Deangelo Hall they have the next 2 CB are rookies and they have a Safety that's started 2 games.

Sorry I just don't see it. Now you may like the players they have as depth more than what the Rams have that's your choice absolutely. But looking at these key spots I just don't see a depth advantage. WR the Rams are very young aside from Wood and Austin sure you could give them the advantage there. RB is pretty even if Dunbar is healthy. And Vernon Davis is their 3rd TE so they get the advantage there as the Rams are also very young at TE. I get the feeling some people would have rather the Rams went and signed a bunch of cheap veterans as depth. It isn't being built that way we're building through the draft and supplementing with select free agents. Again this lack of depth is a perception that some have that just doesn't have teeth IMO.

 

[Afro Ram]

Mannon

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

We Ram fans have yet to witness a pre-season game and already the roller-coaster has begun. The high of acquiring a top notch coaching staff was expected to overcome a young roster with the youngest starting QB in the NFL. Then we witness Austin deal w injuries that mitigate his development as a deep threat while Thomas will miss the first four weeks and Reynolds is listed as fourth string so Gurley gets to be greeted with stacked boxes once again (SJax...does this sound familiar)? As Kupp and Woods give us hope that the ball will actually be caught more often than not, Hav and Brown are getting flipped because Goff may not see the time necessary to get the ball to them. While Donald will eventually get signed...the perceived strength of this team (D-line) lets go of Hayes and then Easley is injured, lost for the season, leaving us w Westbrooks and LTP taking starter reps in camp.

Seriously, give me ONE positional group that is deep enough now to suffer an injury to a starter and not suffer a significant downgrade with the "next man up"? (DB's maybe?) Now, how likely is it that such an injury won't occur?

While I truly believe this is a better team with far better coaching than what we suffered through the last several years, the likelihood of a playoff run is remote at best. While the starters could form a terrific nucleus for success, there are very few second stringers that inspire my confidence.

It comes with every coaching change, especially when a scheme is changed. This was predictable. I said it as soon as Phillips was hired. The Rams didn't have a 3/4 roster. The wrong type of corners, LBers, and Dlinemen. I kept hearing about Phillips hybrid use of the linemen but I was talking about the depth guys as well. This team will look much different in two more years. This year will show coaches who fits and who doesn't but we will continue to see the depth turnover with late round picks and UDFAs.

Name me one team where this is the case?

EDIT: HitStick and OldSchool beat me to it.

NE has good depth everywhere but TE and OLine. Seattle has very good Dline depth. Dallas has OLine depth. Depth is part of being a good team.

Their offensive weapons are what amount to journeyman players, save for Cooks and Gronk. They have a great system and the best QB of all time, which makes everyone look a little better. We just need to build a system.

Depth is a myth in the NFL - every teams backups are roughly the same skill-wise, save for a few exceptions. The difference is the coaching and players at key positions.

Smart coaches build good depth. Every teams depth is not the same. The Rams depth is basically 4/3 Lbs and Dline with lots of zone corners. The OLine is paper thin, despite Boudreau's supposed ability to develop good linemen from unheralded players, LOL. McVay wasn't kidding when he emphasized the need for offensive weapons. He drafted a fullback, a TE and two receivers, and he continues to bring in more pass catchers. I hope to finally see some quality on the OLine in the next few years. Having a line like Buffalo's would be sweet.

There's a difference between a backup for a few games and a backup playing a full season. Even for the Patriots. Take Brady out for a full season and they're not going to win it all, not by a long shot.

Those guys win because of the team around them and the great staff that keeps them locked in and letting the talent around them lead the team to wins. They did not win because of Brissett, basically, they won with him.

That is the beauty of a great system. Belichick relies on intelligence and attitude more than most coaches. He doesn't need All Pros at every position to succeed. That makes finding depth easier. But that system would allow a Garapolo to take them all the way.

I read your post I and many others it seems just feel you and others over estimate the depth of other teams. You say one loss in a position group could be disastrous but the same is true for every team.

I disagree. Good teams can absorb the loss. Being too reliant on a certain player at any position is a trap that good coaches and GMs avoid. Other than QB it is possible to build good depth by filling the roster with system fits, and constantly looking for them. Even at QB, it is possible to find good depth if the coaches are good. Kromer had depth on his OLine in Buffalo, Phillips lost several defenders to free agency but maintained a top defense. It isn't going to happen in a year though.

 

[OldSchool]

I disagree. Good teams can absorb the loss. Being too reliant on a certain player at any position is a trap that good coaches and GMs avoid. Other than QB it is possible to build good depth by filling the roster with system fits, and constantly looking for them. Even at QB, it is possible to find good depth if the coaches are good. Kromer had depth on his OLine in Buffalo, Phillips lost several defenders to free agency but maintained a top defense. It isn't going to happen in a year though.

Depth isn't good until it comes in and succeeds in starting or if it's a veteran that's come over to be a backup which almost never happens. Veterans come over to play. Until depth gets a chance to play it's depth the same as what everybody else has. You may have a perception of what our players worth is or how good they'll be if they're thrust in the lineup but until that happens it's just guess work.

The Rams have 3rd, 4th, 5th and later rounds as backups as well as UDFA. Just like every other team. Some teams have backups that have started multiple games but that's only because the previous year or two they've had to get in to start for injured players. Rams have those guys on the bench just like other teams. Again this comes down to two very simple things. Some people here don't like or agree with the drafts and free agency that the Rams have had. They therefore discount the players on the roster's ability without having even seen them on the field in most cases. People also rate other teams backups higher than our own even though they've never played or if they have played the quality of play is over stated.

You mention the depth that Kromer had in Buffalo yet he was there for 2 years just like the Head Coach at the time. They didn't draft the depth it was coached up. Just like Wade Phillips in Denver, who was in that DC job for 2 years also. In the 2015 draft the Bronco's drafted 5 defensive players. Two are still on the roster one is Shane Ray their 1st round pick the other is the 3rd string RCB. In 2016 they did a little better they drafted 3 defensive players. All three are backups. Those 5 players have started 3 games! Again you don't know how good depth is unless they're forced to start for injuries. People are just blowing off the Rams bench without seeing most of them on the field. It's fun we draft 8 players in 2017 and nobody gives them a chance they're all just wasted bench space that we need to upgrade.

 

[FrantikRam]

Depth isn't good until it comes in and succeeds in starting or if it's a veteran that's come over to be a backup which almost never happens. Veterans come over to play. Until depth gets a chance to play it's depth the same as what everybody else has. You may have a perception of what our players worth is or how good they'll be if they're thrust in the lineup but until that happens it's just guess work.

The Rams have 3rd, 4th, 5th and later rounds as backups as well as UDFA. Just like every other team. Some teams have backups that have started multiple games but that's only because the previous year or two they've had to get in to start for injured players. Rams have those guys on the bench just like other teams. Again this comes down to two very simple things. Some people here don't like or agree with the drafts and free agency that the Rams have had. They therefore discount the players on the roster's ability without having even seen them on the field in most cases. People also rate other teams backups higher than our own even though they've never played or if they have played the quality of play is over stated.

You mention the depth that Kromer had in Buffalo yet he was there for 2 years just like the Head Coach at the time. They didn't draft the depth it was coached up. Just like Wade Phillips in Denver, who was in that DC job for 2 years also. In the 2015 draft the Bronco's drafted 5 defensive players. Two are still on the roster one is Shane Ray their 1st round pick the other is the 3rd string RCB. In 2016 they did a little better they drafted 3 defensive players. All three are backups. Those 5 players have started 3 games! Again you don't know how good depth is unless they're forced to start for injuries. People are just blowing off the Rams bench without seeing most of them on the field. It's fun we draft 8 players in 2017 and nobody gives them a chance they're all just wasted bench space that we need to upgrade.

Great post.

Not to mention, by most people's definition, we DO have solid depth on the OL - both Donnal and Wichmann have had significant playing time.

So that's 7 guys with playing experience on the OL.

At WR we have pretty solid depth - Cooper/Reynolds/Spruce/Thomas as your 4-7 is not bad at all

At RB we would have been fine if Dunbar didn't go down - but even still, it's a pretty easy position to have decent depth - Brown is a decent backup IMO

At TE we have great depth with Everett

Defensively the front 7 was a concern, so we drafted several guys for depth

Secondary is probably now our deepest unit overall



I think where people get confused is that we don't have great starters. Depth isn't so much of an issue. The difference between our WR1 and WR6 is probably the smallest difference in the NFL. Donnal and Wichmann didn't seem too much worse than Brown and Havenstein to me when they played. There is no clearcut starter at TE.


On defense there's obviously bigger drop offs - Ebukam probably sees the field a lot this year, and I wouldn't be surprised if Smart did too - ILB and DL are a concern, mostly on the DL because we already lost Easley. But I'm much less concerned about depth on defense, because Wade is a great coach and I believe these guys will be coached up well enough that it will *appear* as though we magically have great depth.

 

[leoram]

Okay, now we are analyzing instead of cheering...I like it!

Let's start by what I did not say...I did not say McVay and his staff have made wrong moves. They are in the process of acquiring and developing depth as we speak. I also did not say that the backup players we have are without talent or that they will not be developed (I am saying that development will not happen in time for THIS YEAR).

Nowhere in my post did I mention the depth of other teams...for a reason. I'm only addressing THE RAMS chances THIS YEAR. My point is that THIS team will crumble at the losses of ANY of the following players...Whitworth, Sullivan, Havenstein, Donald, Brockers, Ogletree, Quinn, Barwin, Joyner, or Johnson. If other teams have that many players that are critical with insufficient depth ...then they too are subject to a long season. The likelihood that at least two or three of those players will miss significant time is why I believe this is a very good, even playoff caliber team that may not fulfill our playoff dreams this year for this one reason.

Every offseason I get sucked into the hype of how great things are going in camp. I did it last year...only to witness the debacle v the Niners week 1. Fisher is gone and McVay is our new hero. To me, McVay is doing an incredible job so far. But even he is conveying caution, patience, and that we really don't know until the real games begin. Perhaps he is building a dynasty. But a roster built to serve Jeff Fisher for five years is not going to become a McVay roster in one offseason. McSnead went out and plugged holes with veterans to give us a chance. Compared to last season...we will at least be competitive. I'm just being realistic this year for a change.

 

[Boston Ram]

I think the Patriots are insanely deep, especially offensively. I'm not saying their backups are equal to their starters in talent but the drop off is not very severe.

With their QBs, obviously you have Tom Brady but Jimmy Grappolo and Jacoby Brissett both proved they could win games last season.

Their RB depth is ridiculous with Mike Gillislee, James White, Dion Lewis, Rex Burkhead, and Brandon Bolden.

Their WR corps is very solid with Brandon Cooks, Julian Edelman, Danny Amendola, Malcolm Mitchell, and Chris Hogan. All those guys are starting caliber, Amendola even used to be our best receiver.

At TE, Gronk is impossible to fully replace but by bringing in Dwayne Allen, they have a #2 option that could easily be a #1.

That's a team that will be incredibly resilient offensively.

Just a little perspective.

Brissett, never proved anything. The only game he ever started the Pats lost 16-0.

They dont have a starting RB, just a bunch of situational players.

When Edelman is hurt the offense is totally different.

No depth on their oline.

No depth at DE

No depth at LB

Point is, I agree the team is loaded but they lack depth at positions also, especially at Oline, DE and LB.

 

[Loyal]

Okay, now we are analyzing instead of cheering...I like it!

Let's start by what I did not say...I did not say McVay and his staff have made wrong moves. They are in the process of acquiring and developing depth as we speak. I also did not say that the backup players we have are without talent or that they will not be developed (I am saying that development will not happen in time for THIS YEAR).

Nowhere in my post did I mention the depth of other teams...for a reason. I'm only addressing THE RAMS chances THIS YEAR. My point is that THIS team will crumble at the losses of ANY of the following players...Whitworth, Sullivan, Havenstein, Donald, Brockers, Ogletree, Quinn, Barwin, Joyner, or Johnson. If other teams have that many players that are critical with insufficient depth ...then they too are subject to a long season. The likelihood that at least two or three of those players will miss significant time is why I believe this is a very good, even playoff caliber team that may not fulfill our playoff dreams this year for this one reason.

Every offseason I get sucked into the hype of how great things are going in camp. I did it last year...only to witness the debacle v the Niners week 1. Fisher is gone and McVay is our new hero. To me, McVay is doing an incredible job so far. But even he is conveying caution, patience, and that we really don't know until the real games begin. Perhaps he is building a dynasty. But a roster built to serve Jeff Fisher for five years is not going to become a McVay roster in one offseason. McSnead went out and plugged holes with veterans to give us a chance. Compared to last season...we will at least be competitive. I'm just being realistic this year for a change.

Whew, me too! (9-7)....there is always a chance that injuries on the Oline hinder Gurley's performance and Goff's development (9-7). I am hyper excited about Cooper Kupp, but the guy is yet unproven (9-7). Robert Woods is a sure handed WR that runs great routes, but is he really a #1 WR? His stats from Buffalo don't support this (9-7). We are going to rely on two TE sets with Higbee and Everret, but neither guy has done it in NFL games, and is Austin a guy that ever learns how to run crisp routes and also learns to not get disrupted by CB's at the line(9-7)? Are we good enough to stop the run without Donald, who is still frickin holding out(9-7)?

I just don't know what we will do this year (9-7).

 

[LARAMSinFeb.]

Interesting you bring them up. The biggest area's the Rams are criticized for not having depth is OLine and DLine. The Reskins top 5 backups, at least the primary backup listed at each position, have a grand total of 8 games started in their careers. Two rookies a 3rd year vet that's never played a game and 2 tackles one has 2 starts the other Ty Nsekhe has 6 starts in 5 years 4 of which were last year.

Compare that to the Rams who's top 5 backups have Wichmann who in his two years has started 18 games, Eldrenkamp a rookie, Murphy has never started, Donnall who's started 6 games in his two years and Blythe who started 1 game his rookie year.

Advantage Rams

I have no idea how number of starts is the sole determiner of backup quality. I mean experience is important, but I think Ty Nsekhe would be our starting right tackle, and I bet McVay would agree. The rest might be a wash with Arie K turning out to be a bit of a disappointment. I think their starters would relegate a couple or more of our starters to backups. Our starting C literally was their backup C.

"Secondary? Aside from Deangelo Hall they have the next 2 CB are rookies and they have a Safety that's started 2 games."

That's just false. They're loaded with experience and talent, plus they grabbed Fabien Moreau in the draft. Maybe you're not familiar with the names when you see them, but they have several vet backups who played a lot last year.

How about LB? Redskins are loaded again. QB, TE, RBs.... The Redskins have a problem in a few positions of how to get all the talent on the field.

 

[FRO]

The biggest difference between this year's roster and last year's is the LT. That is a big improvement and can really help the entire line. The other two areas where there has to be huge improvement is at QB and the run game. If Goff plays like he did last year then the team finishes around 4-12. If he has a season like Bradford had in 2012 I see anywhere from 7 to 9 wins, provided the run game rebounds.

 

[Merlin]

But that system would allow a Garapolo to take them all the way.

That's a common assumption I do not agree with. Garoppolo won't ever do anything meaningful in this league. I expect Belichick will flip him to some poor team and fleece them for a pick or two then draft his next "future hall of fame" guy the media can salivate over while he plays behind Brady and do it all over again.

 

[Loyal]

That's a common assumption I do not agree with. Garoppolo won't ever do anything meaningful in this league. I expect Belichick will flip him to some poor team and fleece them for a pick or two then draft his next "future hall of fame" guy the media can salivate over while he plays behind Brady and do it all over again.

d@mn..Garoppolo looks good
~KC Chiefs

 

[Sportsed]

LeoRam, when I read your op, I took it to mean that you were pessimistic about our depth. My thought was, while depth is very important, we needed 1st get 22 adequate to above-average starters first. I'm optimistic about the season because of the off-season moves the Rams have made. I'm hoping this season we will establish a level of play that will be consistent------whatever level that turns out to be, lay the foundation for going forward. We were going in reverse under the previous regime, posting a worst record in year 5 than we did in year one. I'm pretty sure we will be going forward this year; here's to hoping that we can win enough games this year and start looking like a good football team. Finally, this year we will get some definitive answers to questions------is Goff our qb of the future, will/can Tavon be effective in his new role, will Woods/Kupp prove to be above-average receivers, how will our draft picks perform, how much improved will the ol be, will Webster solidify himself now that he's a starter, will LJo prove to adequate in his new role, and how much more improved will the team perform under this new coaching staff? I'm extremely confident that this team will "out perform" all these negative preseason predictions. While depth may be a concern, that "next man up" is also an opportunity.

 

[Snaz]

Hard to worry about depth when your starters are most likely backups on another team.
So the focus was getting starters, and a few backups...

 

[Ramrasta]

Just a little perspective.

Brissett, never proved anything. The only game he ever started the Pats lost 16-0.

They dont have a starting RB, just a bunch of situational players.

When Edelman is hurt the offense is totally different.

No depth on their oline.

No depth at DE

No depth at LB

Point is, I agree the team is loaded but they lack depth at positions also, especially at Oline, DE and LB.

Brissett played 3 NFL games in his career and started 2 of them. He had the win against the Dolphins in relief of Grappolo, then started the following week in a 27-0 thrashing of the Texans #1 defense but injured his thumb. He lost the next week to the Bills but he was playing injured since Grappolo was hurt and Brady was suspended. He had an 83.9 passer rating in that span.

All the Patriots RBs are unconventional because they are all dual-threats instead of pure runners. I think James White proved his worth in last year's Super Bowl and Mike Gilislee/Dion Lewis will surprise people.

Danny Amendola and Chris Hogan are basically Edelman clones. They would be fine if he went down, especially with Brandon Cooks now in the mix.

You are definitely right that they lack Oline and LB depth. The only team that has a deep offensive line is the Cowboys that I know of.

I wouldn't sleep on the D-line though. The rotation of Alan Branch, Malcolm Brown, Kony Ealy, Trey Flowers, Lawrence Guy, and now Derek Rivers is definitely formidable.

I'm not saying NE is deep at every position but relative to the rest of the league, they can afford the most injuries without sinking.