Owners To Eliminate Kickoffs?

[Prime Time]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ty-summit-next-week-with-a-focus-on-kickoffs/

NFL plans a player safety summit next week, with a focus on kickoffs
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 22, 2018

The NFL has already made one major change to player safety rules this offseason, banning players from lowering their heads to initiate contact with the helmet. And a discussion of more changes is on the agenda for next week.

A player safety summit is being planned for next week, May 1-2 at the league office, an NFL spokesman told ESPN.

Kickoffs will be a focal point of the meeting, with continuing discussions about how to make the play safer — or get rid of it altogether. Packers President Mark Murphy said last month that the league was planning to call on head coaches and special teams coordinators to come up with solutions to the problem of concussions suffered on kickoffs, and that input will be sought at next week’s meeting.

Steve Tasker, one of the best special teams players in NFL history, has confirmed that he’s part of the discussions around the future of the kickoff as well.

Realistically, there may be nothing that can be done to make kickoffs safer. The very nature of the play is to have players on one team sprinting down the field in one direction, players on the other team sprinting down the field in the other direction, and a bunch of hard collisions when the players meet. Those collisions are going to cause injuries.

So the NFL may have reached the point where the discussions are less about changing rules to make kickoffs safer and more about the necessary rules changes to eliminate kickoffs. Once the league comes up with a proper replacement for onside kicks, the kickoff will go the way of the dodo.

 

[fanotodd]

How about the kicking team line up on THE OPPONENT'S 30 yard line while the kicker still kicks from his own 35?

The kicking team would not be allowed to move forward until the receiving team touched the ball. Kinda like tagging up on a fly ball in baseball.

Good news: eliminates 50 yards of sprinting downfield at full speed looking for contact.
Bad news: I guess this would eliminate the surprise on side kick. On side kicks would now be announced and played like they traditionally are. This is how the 2 point conversion is handled now.

It would however, inspire some creative strategies and alignments on KOs.

 

[Mojo Ram]

On one hand you have baseball which won't budge on change, now you have football that is trying to reinvent the wheel every year. There's a middle ground of being proactive/progressive and being true to the game that has worked for decades as is.

I don't like where the NFL has gone since about '08

 

[Mojo Ram]

As far as i'm concerned the only good ideas from the NFL came in the form of adding the 2 point conversion and backing up the extra point try.

The rest has been meddling IMO.

 

[bubbaramfan]

Get it over with and just do it. We all know where this is headed Make it flag football, red shirt the QB and make defenses count to ten before they can rush.

Bunch of frigging wussies. They take the "foot" out of football and I'm going fishing on Sundays.

 

[OregonRamsFan]

Even with nanocell technology allowing for differential densities...

I have noticed “differential densities” on this forum.

I tend to believe the hard shell of the helmet creates as nearly as many issues as it solves. The clear and obvious answer is to make the helmets “dent” when impacted to near concussion producing levels. Put a Reebok pump on ‘em to pop the malleable dent back out. Think of the licensing opportunities. Lol.

Actually using gel technology somehow on the outside makes sense to me. I’m more high-tech minded than low-tech.

We put a man on the moon. It seems we should be able to solve this important issue.

 

[LesBaker]

Now where I see the benefit of a softer helmet or one that reduces shock is when the player's head hits the ground. No rule will change that and there may be as many injuries caused by the ground as any other contact with a player's head.

Good point, a lot of guys get hurt from their head slamming into the ground.

HEY NFL OFFICIALS!! I don't give a Flying-F--K what the reasoning is Keep your Freaking hands off the Kickoff! And quit screwing with the game of Football Just because you want to be Politically Correct!:seizure:

QUIT DICKING WITH THE GAME!!!!

If changes are made and they help keep guys a little safer I have problem with it.

I don't want to see anymore people kill themselves. If long term issues can be addressed by tweaking rules it doesn't bother me.

I wonder if moving the players up the field on kickoffs would have any impact???

I'd like to see something like this and what a couple of other posters have suggested, it could work and even make the returns a MORE important part of the game than they already are.

I'm all for protecting the players from injuries but football is in itself a dangerous sport and they will never be able to legislate the game so that everyone will be safe without turning it into something unrecognizable.

I think that the NFL in recent times has done a lot of dumb shit, fucked up their image, made bad rule changes on several fronts..........but if they make a change on kickoffs it will be fine with me.

Eliminating Kickoffs is just lazy and irresponsible.

I don't think they will be eliminated..........no way.

 

[Mackeyser]

I have noticed “differential densities” on this forum.

I tend to believe the hard shell of the helmet creates as nearly as many issues as it solves. The clear and obvious answer is to make the helmets “dent” when impacted to near concussion producing levels. Put a Reebok pump on ‘em to pop the malleable dent back out. Think of the licensing opportunities. Lol.

Actually using gel technology somehow on the outside makes sense to me. I’m more high-tech minded than low-tech.

We put a man on the moon. It seems we should be able to solve this important issue.

Actually, a hard shell has some benefits. The fact that it can be slippery means a lesser chance of the helmet transferring torsional loads expressly as a function of a lack of friction. But it can't be so rigid that it doesn't crumple like modern cars.

The ideal helmet, imho, is one that is rigid and slippery enough to significantly reduce torsional as well and tangential impacts while being soft enough that the players understand that on direct contact, the helmet IS deforming and transferring the preponderance of the load to the multiple density silicon matrix.

Thus, the players would have the "feel" of a much, much softer helmet as well as the safety that comes from the slipperiness of the current harder helmets (hopefully even more slippery).

Basically, I didn't realize it, but I just described the VICIS Zero1 helmet.

So, independently, I napkined what this company designed and it turns out it's the safest helmet in the NFL. Notre Dame is standardizing on this helmet and I fully encourage people to look into it as the example for what I was talking about.

Engineering isn't voodoo, it's just applied math, so I'm not surprised that this solution worked as well as I thought it might.

I'll try to find the image that encapsulates what the helmet does.

I would really like it if Stanford standardized on this helmet because they have a concussion team working with the Stanford football team using a mouthguard with sensors to measure acceleration and movement during a collision.

When they animated the brain after a massive collision with a Stanford WR, it turns out that the "brain sloshing around the brain cavity" was all wrong and that it was actually the two hemispheres of the brain getting out of sync that was the major culprit.

That's why the different layers and the helmet compressing are so important...it creates the lag via absorption that allows the two hemispheres of the brain to move less out of sync, thus it should lead to less overall damage and less intense damage even during major collisions.

 

[RamFan503]

I wonder if the NFL has looked into the material used in Limb Saver recoil pads and anti shock pieces for bows. Anyone who has used these recoil pads can tell you how much shock and recoil they take out of magnum and large caliber rifles. I use them on all my large hunting rifles and my wife’s 270. It takes most of the shoulder pounding out of my 300 ultra mag.

 

[OregonRamsFan]

Actually, a hard shell has some benefits. The fact that it can be slippery means a lesser chance of the helmet transferring torsional loads expressly as a function of a lack of friction. But it can't be so rigid that it doesn't crumple like modern cars.

The ideal helmet, imho, is one that is rigid and slippery enough to significantly reduce torsional as well and tangential impacts while being soft enough that the players understand that on direct contact, the helmet IS deforming and transferring the preponderance of the load to the multiple density silicon matrix.

Thus, the players would have the "feel" of a much, much softer helmet as well as the safety that comes from the slipperiness of the current harder helmets (hopefully even more slippery).

Basically, I didn't realize it, but I just described the VICIS Zero1 helmet.

So, independently, I napkined what this company designed and it turns out it's the safest helmet in the NFL. Notre Dame is standardizing on this helmet and I fully encourage people to look into it as the example for what I was talking about.

Engineering isn't voodoo, it's just applied math, so I'm not surprised that this solution worked as well as I thought it might.

I'll try to find the image that encapsulates what the helmet does.

I would really like it if Stanford standardized on this helmet because they have a concussion team working with the Stanford football team using a mouthguard with sensors to measure acceleration and movement during a collision.

When they animated the brain after a massive collision with a Stanford WR, it turns out that the "brain sloshing around the brain cavity" was all wrong and that it was actually the two hemispheres of the brain getting out of sync that was the major culprit.

That's why the different layers and the helmet compressing are so important...it creates the lag via absorption that allows the two hemispheres of the brain to move less out of sync, thus it should lead to less overall damage and less intense damage even during major collisions.

Well done! Thanks!

 

[Prime Time]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ges-to-the-kickoff-likely-coming-this-season/

More changes to the kickoff likely coming this season
Posted by Michael David Smith on May 1, 2018

The NFL isn’t done tinkering with kickoffs.

NFL executive V.P. of football operations Troy Vincent told Judy Battista of NFL Media that after two days of meetings at the league office, a kickoff proposal will likely be brought to the owners at the May meeting. Vincent believes a modification to kickoff rules is likely to be implemented this season.

The NFL has already modified the kickoff by moving it up five yards from the 30 to the 35, moving touchbacks up five yards from the 20 to the 25, and preventing players on the kicking team from getting more than five yards of a running start before the kick.

What more modifications can be made? The NCAA has changed its kickoff rule to allow the receiving team to fair catch anywhere inside the 25-yard line and get the ball at the 25. The NFL could adopt that rule as well.

Vincent said the NFL is not considering eliminating the kickoff. But Vincent has previously said that is, indeed, on the table. ‏And ultimately, it will be the NFL’s owners who decide whether to keep or eliminate the kickoff. If three-fourths of the NFL’s owners want to get rid of it, then it’s gone.

What the NFL still needs to do is come up with a replacement for the onside kick. Football needs a way for teams trailing by more than one possession to get the ball back late in the game, and right now, that way is the onside kick. Once the NFL figures out another way, the kickoff is likely to go away.

 

[Prime Time]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/05/05/how-safe-will-the-kickoff-have-to-become-to-save-it/

How safe will the kickoff have to become to save it?
Posted by Mike Florio on May 5, 2018

After years of simply trying to reduce the number of kickoffs, changes finally are being made to the kickoff play in an effort to make it safer. So how safe does the “most dangerous play in the game” have to become before the NFL will choose permanently to keep it?

In a new online question-and-answer session with fans, Packers CEO Mark Murphy offers a summary regarding the current status of the kickoff.

“As we’ve discussed here before, the kickoff is by far the most dangerous play in the game,” Murphy writes. “You are five times more likely to suffer a concussion on a kickoff than a play from scrimmage. The kickoff is so dangerous because the collisions are often at full speed. I was part of the meeting this week in New York. The discussions were very productive. The special teams coaches came forward with a number of recommendations that should make the play safer.

The recommendations included eliminating the two-man wedge, eliminating the running start for the kickoff coverage team, and requiring eight players on the return team to be within 15 yards of their restraining line. The changes should make the play more like the punt, where blockers are running alongside the players on the coverage unit. We’re very hopeful that these changes will result in fewer injuries on a kickoff, but we will continue to monitor this closely. We’re hopeful that these change will allow us to keep the kickoff in the game.”

Murphy, who previously has made it clear that the kickoff play remains on a “short leash” and that it could still go away, doesn’t elaborate on how safe the kickoff must become in order to save it. But if the concussion rate during kickoffs remains five times greater than in normal scrimmage plays, there’s surely an ideal ratio that the NFL hopes to achieve.

Is it 1:1? Or is 2:1 good enough? No one has provided that information, yet.

That said, there’s a good chance that this is less about reducing concussions and more about removing from the game a play that carries with it the greatest risk of a catastrophic — and possibly fatal — injury.

Nearly nine years ago, then-Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer created a stir with a matter-of-fact assessment of the risk of playing NFL football: “The truth of the matter is . . . somebody is going to die here in the NFL. It’s going to happen.” The “most dangerous play in the game” presents the greatest risk of that, since players who are moving in opposite directions at full speed and who dip their helmets at impact risk the kind of upper spinal cord injury that will induce paralysis and, even worse, end life.

Think of the consequences to the NFL if a player pays the ultimate price. Congress instantly would convene hearings and commence drafting legislation. Debates would emerge about the morality of watching football (those debates already have popped up from time to time regarding chronic the health risks of the game). Eventually, a federal commission with the power to oversee and regulate football could emerge, which likely is the we-know-what’s-best-for-us NFL’s worst-case business scenario.

So even if avoiding a fatality isn’t the impetus for the ongoing examination of the kickoff, it should be. And it’s no surprise that the NFL won’t say “we don’t want someone to die on the field” when addressing its concerns about the play.

The fact that people in the league routinely call it “the most dangerous play in the game” has to give the league’s lawyers nearly as many chest pains as an FBI raid on their offices, apartments, and/or hotel rooms. If people like Murphy were to admit that the league fears a fatality — and if a fatality were to happen — it could be game over, literally.

 

[XXXIVwin]

A lesser chance of the helmet transferring torsional loads expressly as a function of a lack of friction... (while) deforming and transferring the preponderance of the load to the multiple density silicon matrix.

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I figured, too.

 

[Karate61]

They should make something that disperses impact over a greater area to reduce forces. If you drop a 45lb weight on the floor, the force is dispersed and the floor is fine. If you attach a nail to that weight, with all the force now focused to the tip of the nail, the nail is driven into the floor.

So, make some equipment just for kickoffs that disperse the impact forces away from the head and upper spine. As a possibility, make a piece of equipment where the helmet and shoulders are one piece of equipment. Then, forces to the head would be dispersed down into the shoulder pad area, further dispersing the impact, and buffering high impact away from the player. Since the helmet is attached to the shoulderpads, the player would be able to rotate his head side to side as if wearing a spacesuit helmet.

I think the NFL should give me a call!

 

[Mackeyser]

They should make something that disperses impact over a greater area to reduce forces. If you drop a 45lb weight on the floor, the force is dispersed and the floor is fine. If you attach a nail to that weight, with all the force now focused to the tip of the nail, the nail is driven into the floor.

So, make some equipment just for kickoffs that disperse the impact forces away from the head and upper spine. As a possibility, make a piece of equipment where the helmet and shoulders are one piece of equipment. Then, forces to the head would be dispersed down into the shoulder pad area, further dispersing the impact, and buffering high impact away from the player. Since the helmet is attached to the shoulderpads, the player would be able to rotate his head side to side as if wearing a spacesuit helmet.

I think the NFL should give me a call!

Good ideas.

The shoulder attachment was modeled and they even made some mock ups at one point and realized it wouldn’t work. It put the load mid back and created a bunch of other problems. It was also very cumbersome and there was no good balance between a very rigid setup which transferred too much of the impact horizontally to the spine and the semi-rigid which didn’t transfer enough of the force away from the cervical region.

As for the greater dispersal area, sure. That would be accomplished if the helmet were allowed to deform on impact like the VICIS Zero1 helmet.

The problem is that unless great care is taken to ensure that the surface is very slippery, that deformation in combination with friction would allow a greater surface area over which to transmit torsional loads, which is a huge no no.

 

[XXXIVwin]

Interesting discussion about helmet safety.

A lot of strong reaearch indicating that the Vicis helmets are the safest, yet only 80 NFL players chose to wear them last year.

Sounds like the Vicis helmets are gaining popularity, though.

https://www.inc.com/kevin-j-ryan/vicis-zero1-helmet-earns-top-two-spots-nfl-safety-test.html

 

[Mackeyser]

I’m sure it feels different than other helmets and different can be bad insofar as if a player is thinking as opposed to reacting, then they can be put in a bad spot.

Still, I think as colleges start to standardize on them Notre Dame being the first, more pros will feel comfortable with the transition

 

[dieterbrock]

If a majority of concussions does in fact result from kick offs, then by all means get rid of it so the rest of the game can stay in tact

 

[ReekofRams]

When they animated the brain after a massive collision with a Stanford WR

How did they animate the brain?

Where do you get all your vast supply of knowledge, discernment, wisdom, and your seeming expertise of technical intellect?
In other words, I'm jealous. Oh could you please perform my brain surgery when it's required?
I'm also glad my brain doesn't slosh, because it sure feels like it has.