NRR: Russell Wilson's "lateral"

[Mackeyser]

Cool!

So, Mackeyser, obviously you know what you're talking about. And basically, we agree. I agree with everything you say about momentum and basic Newtonian physics. I also agree that discussions of relativity are applicable exclusively to the "appearances" of the play.

As regards NDT, I am going to postulate the Wise-Ass Theory (W-AT) to explain his comments. Here's my reasoning to back-up this Wise-Ass Theory:

1. He mentions the Galilean Transformation. He knows that most people are going to have no idea what the hell he's talking about. He just wants to provoke curiosity.
2. He calls the Galilean Transformation "legit." He does not call the lateral "legit."
3. When he says, "It's not their fault they ran forward faster than the ball", again, I think he's being a bit of a wise-ass.... he's not necessarily challenging the "NFL rules," he's just explaining the "physics rules."

I suspect that NDT doesn't really give a crap about football, and that his main purpose in answering this question was to provoke further interest in science-- not to comment one way or another about NFL Rules.

When I said in my original post that "it is indisputable that Wilson threw it backwards", I was being a bit of a wise-ass as well. Because while that is technically true, it is also misleading. It all depends on whether you define "backwards" in relative terms or in absolute terms.

Clearly, the lateral is somewhat rare in the NFL, but integral to rugby. I just find it interesting that the two sports define a lateral differently. Rugby defines a lateral in relative terms, and the NFL defines a lateral in absolute terms. I prefer the rugby definition because I think it adheres more closely to the "spirit" of the rule. I think the NFL rule is meant to ensure that if a player is running past the LOS, he cannot throw a forward pass-- he can only throw it parallel to him or behind him, to a teammate. If a guy is running full speed and throws it behind him to a teammate-- well, I just think that should be legal, and the guy shouldn't be "penalized" for throwing a lateral while running at full speed if momentum causes the ball to drift forward.

As regards our other debate, the ball thrown into the wind... well let me just start by posting the damn rules, and then we'll go from there. I'll just post everything about defining a "pass", even though only a few points are relevant:

ARTICLE 4. FORWARD PASS. It is a forward pass if:
(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or
(b) the ball first touches the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).
(c) When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional movement forward of his hand starts a forward pass.
Item 1. Contact by Team B Player. If a Team B player contacts the passer or the ball after forward movement begins, a forward pass is ruled, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player. When this occurs, intentional grounding rules do not apply. If a Team B player contacts the passer or the ball before forward movement begins, the direction of the pass is the responsibility of the passer, and grounding rules apply.
Item 2. Passer Tucks Ball. If the player loses possession of the ball during an attempt to bring it back toward his body, or if the player loses possession after he has tucked the ball into his body, it is a fumble.
Item 3. Passer re-cocks his arm. If the player loses possession of the ball while attempting to re-DNA rifle his arm, it is a fumble.
Item 4. Fumbled or Muffed Ball Goes Forward. The fact that a fumbled or muffed ball goes forward is disregarded, unless the act is ruled intentional. If it is intentional, a fumbled ball that goes forward is a forward pass (8-1-1), and a muff is a bat (12-4-1).

ARTICLE 5. BACKWARD PASS. It is a Backward Pass if the yard line at which the ball is first touched by a player or the ground is parallel to or behind the yard line at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand. A snap becomes a backward pass when the snapper releases the ball. Note: If a pass is batted, muffed, punched, or kicked in any direction, its original designation as a Forward Pass or a Backward Pass does not change.

------
So this is why I claimed earlier that the rules governing a forward pass are "different" from the rules governing a backward pass.

The NFL seems to have a history of going through all sorts of gyrations to protect a QB's "intent" of throwing a forward pass. We all remember all that bullcrap caused by the "Tuck Rule." I mean, the slightest little forward motion of the arm, and BOOM! it's a "forward pass."

Let me ask you this: if the definition of a forward pass relies ONLY on the "absolute" location of the ball....

(b) the ball first touches the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s)

Then why in hell does the rulebook ALSO have these "alternate" definitions of a forward pass?

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);
(c) When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional movement forward of his hand starts a forward pass.

Basically, I think the NFL rulebook tries to give the passer as much possible "benefit of the doubt" regarding his intent to throw a forward pass. Therefore, in my reading of the rules, as soon as the QB throws the ball forward, then boom, it instantly becomes a forward pass, even if gale force winds eventually push the ball behind the passer.

You should copyright that Wise Ass Theory.

The applications are nearly endless and just think of your life traveling from talk show to talk show all over the world discussing it!

 

[XXXIVwin]

Respectfully, you keep focusing on the wrong issue.
1. A forward pass is never ruled a forward pass unless the ball goes at least some fraction of an inch forward from the spot where the QB is. The arm moving forward issue ONLY applies to plays where the ball goes at least some fraction of an inch forward. At that point, the refs have to decide if the ball came out before his arm was moving forward to decide if it was a FUMBLE or a PASS. They're not deciding if it was a FORWARD PASS or a LATERAL.

2. When they're actually deciding whether it was a LATERAL, it is irrelevant if the arm was moving forward or not. They only look to see if the ball advanced some fraction of an inch forward from where the QB let it go.

Arm action is IRRELEVANT to the determination of whether a play was a lateral or not. Here's an example:


The refs needed to determine if this was a forward pass or lateral. Aaron Rodgers's arm was coming forward. However, the refs ruled it was a LATERAL. Why? Because the ball didn't come forward when it left Rodgers's hand. The pass went straight towards the sideline horizontally. Since it didn't move forward, it was ruled a fumble. Yet, his arm was still moving forward when he released it, but that was irrelevant because they were determining if it was a lateral.

Basically, this statement below is 100% wrong:


Here's another example to drive that point home:

View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d82266cb2/WK-2-Can-t-Miss-Play-Botched-Rams-pass-leads-to-Giants-TD


Here's a painful blast from the past. Bradford's arm is moving forwards, but the ball travels backwards. That's a lateral.

The SOLE consideration when considering whether a play was a LATERAL or not is: Did the ball move forward at all from the point where it left the passer or runner's hand? That's it. That's the only thing they care about. That's why the rule is consistent and fair.

'

Hey jrry, thanks much for the thoughtful and well researched and respectful reply, much appreciated.

Quite frankly, I am now more confused than ever. I've read the rulebook and your posts and looked at examples and now I'm still not sure I can define a "forward pass." Hell, I can barely tell when you and I "agree" or disagree" anymore!

A few comments and questions for you:

(One) Whenever I mentioned the "QB's arm moving forward", I meant it in "absolute" terms, i.e. "to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line." [For example, if a QB receives the snap and turns directly around and fires it toward his own end zone, I would not characterize that as the "Arm moving forward."] So in the (memorably puke-worthy) Bradford clip you posted, I think there is zero question about it, it is obviously a lateral, since Bradford's arm is moving "forward from his body" but the arm is not moving "forward toward the opponent's goal line." I'll own up to not being as clear as I should have been on this one. But for me, "arm moving forward" means "possession of the ball with arm movement proceeding to a point nearer the opponent's goal line."

(Two) Given the above, I think perhaps we agree on this point but used different words. You say that to be a forward pass, the ball must go "at least some fraction of an inch forward from the spot where the QB is." When I say, "the arm moves forward with possession of the ball to a point closer to the opponent's goal line," I believe that these two things are one and the same. Right? As I say, I can barely tell if we agree or not!

(Three) Legit question here. What the hell is the difference between a lateral and a fumble? Are they interchangeable words? You said at one point, "the refs have to decide if the ball came out before his arm was moving forward to decide if it was a FUMBLE or a PASS. They're not deciding if it was a FORWARD PASS or a LATERAL."

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here, but bear with me. A bit later, you said, "Aaron Rodgers's arm was coming forward. However, the refs ruled it was a LATERAL. Why? Because the ball didn't come forward when it left Rodgers's hand. The pass went straight towards the sideline horizontally. Since it didn't move forward, it was ruled a fumble."

If I'm reading you right, you said the refs ruled that it was a "lateral," and a couple sentences later you said it was a "fumble." I mean for all intents and purposes, aren't they the same darn thing? (The point is, it's a live ball and can be picked up and advanced.) But if they are basically interchangeable, doesn't that give less credence to your distinction of "pass vs. fumble instead of forward pass vs. lateral" ? As I say, I've now managed to confuse the heck out of myself.

(Four) Here's the biggie, where "I think" we still disagree. I stated my opinions about forward pass rulings based on an article by Ben Austro, who runs the website "FootballZebras" and wrote a book about interpreting NFL rules. Coincidentally, Austro wrote an article about the very same Rodgers play you clipped, above. In the article, Austro writes, "When a quarterback is contacted in the act of passing, it is ruled a forward pass if the quarterback’s arm is moving forward, even if the flight of the ball goes backwards. This is a judgement call by the referee, but frequently the quarterback is given deference that it was intended to go forward, especially if it could go either way." Here's the link:
http://www.footballzebras.com/2017/09/18/backward-pass-can-ruled-forward-wasnt-packers/

Is it fair to say you don't agree with Austro? Austro seems to be saying that is is indeed possible to have a "forward pass" ruling even if the ball goes backward on the field.

(Five) Here's another weird example that Austro cites, from 2014. I was not able to watch a clip of the play, but Austro describes it here:

http://www.footballzebras.com/2014/09/21/week-2-remainders/

It sounds like Geno Smith's ARM was moving forward, but because of the defender's impact the BALL never did, and only went BACKWARD. Yet still it was ruled an incomplete forward pass. Again, this seems to be counter to what you were saying earlier(I think).

Bottom line.... at this point I don't really care if you're right and I'm wrong or I'm right and you're wrong or we're disagreeing or we're saying the same thing using different words or what. I'm about ready to throw my hands up in the air and say, "Fuck it, I don't know how to interpret the ruling of a forward pass, all I want is for the Rams to smash the Eagles on Sunday!"

 

[jrry32]

'

Hey jrry, thanks much for the thoughtful and well researched and respectful reply, much appreciated.

Quite frankly, I am now more confused than ever. I've read the rulebook and your posts and looked at examples and now I'm still not sure I can define a "forward pass." Hell, I can barely tell when you and I "agree" or disagree" anymore!

A few comments and questions for you:

(One) Whenever I mentioned the "QB's arm moving forward", I meant it in "absolute" terms, i.e. "to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line." [For example, if a QB receives the snap and turns directly around and fires it toward his own end zone, I would not characterize that as the "Arm moving forward."] So in the (memorably puke-worthy) Bradford clip you posted, I think there is zero question about it, it is obviously a lateral, since Bradford's arm is moving "forward from his body" but the arm is not moving "forward toward the opponent's goal line." I'll own up to not being as clear as I should have been on this one. But for me, "arm moving forward" means "possession of the ball with arm movement proceeding to a point nearer the opponent's goal line."

(Two) Given the above, I think perhaps we agree on this point but used different words. You say that to be a forward pass, the ball must go "at least some fraction of an inch forward from the spot where the QB is." When I say, "the arm moves forward with possession of the ball to a point closer to the opponent's goal line," I believe that these two things are one and the same. Right? As I say, I can barely tell if we agree or not!

More or less. I am not going to beat you up over semantics here.

(Three) Legit question here. What the hell is the difference between a lateral and a fumble? Are they interchangeable words? You said at one point, "the refs have to decide if the ball came out before his arm was moving forward to decide if it was a FUMBLE or a PASS. They're not deciding if it was a FORWARD PASS or a LATERAL."

A lateral doesn't have to be a fumble. If the QB laterals and his player catches it, it's not a fumble. It's no different than a hand-off or a pitch.(technically, a pitch is a lateral)

The point I'm making is when the refs talk about the arm moving forward, it's a play where the ball moved forward, so it can't be a lateral. However, it can be a fumble if the QB didn't have control before his arm was moving forward.

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here, but bear with me. A bit later, you said, "Aaron Rodgers's arm was coming forward. However, the refs ruled it was a LATERAL. Why? Because the ball didn't come forward when it left Rodgers's hand. The pass went straight towards the sideline horizontally. Since it didn't move forward, it was ruled a fumble."

If I'm reading you right, you said the refs ruled that it was a "lateral," and a couple sentences later you said it was a "fumble." I mean for all intents and purposes, aren't they the same darn thing? (The point is, it's a live ball and can be picked up and advanced.) But if they are basically interchangeable, doesn't that give less credence to your distinction of "pass vs. fumble instead of forward pass vs. lateral" ? As I say, I've now managed to confuse the heck out of myself.

No. A lateral can be a fumble, but it's not guaranteed to be a fumble. The point I was making there is that his arm action was moving forward to throw the football, but the ball went backwards, which made it a lateral. The fact that nobody on his team caught it made it a fumble.

(Four) Here's the biggie, where "I think" we still disagree. I stated my opinions about forward pass rulings based on an article by Ben Austro, who runs the website "FootballZebras" and wrote a book about interpreting NFL rules. Coincidentally, Austro wrote an article about the very same Rodgers play you clipped, above. In the article, Austro writes, "When a quarterback is contacted in the act of passing, it is ruled a forward pass if the quarterback’s arm is moving forward, even if the flight of the ball goes backwards. This is a judgement call by the referee, but frequently the quarterback is given deference that it was intended to go forward, especially if it could go either way." Here's the link:
http://www.footballzebras.com/2017/09/18/backward-pass-can-ruled-forward-wasnt-packers/

Is it fair to say you don't agree with Austro? Austro seems to be saying that is is indeed possible to have a "forward pass" ruling even if the ball goes backward on the field.

I don't. I've never seen the rule interpreted that way. Meanwhile, I've seen the rule interpreted the way it was on the Rodgers' play many times.

(Five) Here's another weird example that Austro cites, from 2014. I was not able to watch a clip of the play, but Austro describes it here:

http://www.footballzebras.com/2014/09/21/week-2-remainders/

It sounds like Geno Smith's ARM was moving forward, but because of the defender's impact the BALL never did, and only went BACKWARD. Yet still it was ruled an incomplete forward pass. Again, this seems to be counter to what you were saying earlier(I think).

That's a different story. If his arm is moving forward and the defender impacts the ball, it has moved forward from his hand to the point of the defender impacting it (even if that's a fraction of a fraction of an inch). It would be like ruling that a ball batted at the LOS is a backwards pass if it lands behind the QB. That wouldn't make much sense to anyone.

Bottom line.... at this point I don't really care if you're right and I'm wrong or I'm right and you're wrong or we're disagreeing or we're saying the same thing using different words or what. I'm about ready to throw my hands up in the air and say, "freak it, I don't know how to interpret the ruling of a forward pass, all I want is for the Rams to smash the Eagles on Sunday!"

We agree on that. We might as well make it three dead birds in a row (Cardinals, Eagles, and Seahawks).

 

[LesBaker]

I'm assuming he's just over complicating momentum. It's the same as if you drop something out of a car at 60 miles per hour, it's not going to land and just fall like it was at a standstill. Momentum carried the ball forward because Wilson didn't account for that aspect of it, and didn't lateral it far enough back, and it ended up going forward. While he made the lateral movement with his arm it threw everyone off, but by the rules it's a forward pass.

It should have been a penalty and should have been challenged. Refs missed,but it's not surprising that they did. Seahawks got away with that one.

He threw it forward.

This isn't a fast moving vehicle, it's two guys running maybe 15 or so MPH. He tossed it forward to a a spot, so that a guy running could get it.

I'm dumbfounded that this wasn't challenged because as it happened on TV as I watched i was waiting for the flag that never came.

Yes the Seahawks got away with one for sure, but if they pull that sandlot shit against the Rams defense both of those guys are going to get splattered.

 

[LACHAMP46]

looked good when i saw it
train

Shit was sweet huh.....why I didn't care it was illegal....

Wilson was a miracle worker at Wisconsin....I saw some clips of him at NC State....thought he had a live arm....thought he was a lil small....but maybe had some Warren Moon in him....dude was barely losing games at Wisconsin...playing like a Doug Flutie at the end of games....magician...that guy is something else. He's doing the same things in the pros.

 

[Karate61]

Isn't this what the refs use to determine a forward pass?

 

[XXXIVwin]

Isn't this what the refs use to determine a forward pass?

Foreword Pass

Section 3, Article 22-5. Example.

When an author writes to his wife in the preface of his book, "Many thanks to Eloise for her unwavering support," this obvious attempt to get laid is known as a Foreword Pass.

 

[LesBaker]

Foreword Pass

Section 3, Article 22-5. Example.

When an author writes to his wife in the preface of his book, "Many thanks to Eloise for her unwavering support," this obvious attempt to get laid is known as a Foreword Pass.

My version.

Four word pass.

"Hey, wanna go boink?"