Not impressed with the hands up BS displayed by the Rams WRs

[Thordaddy]

No. I think his story doesn't make sense in certain parts and want him pressed on it. I don't assume his entire story is made up.

He can be embellishing parts of his story without the entire story being a lie.

I think most stories get embellished with numerous tellings , even IN transcription and also that since the human memory is not a computer data base that they all change over time as details that weren't immediately recalled come to mind are noted and included in subsequent tellings.

For example the description of Browns strength, it might be that the metaphor he uses is something he was trying to express the terror he felt.

I'd defy anyone of any ethnicity be they black or white to be alone in a neighborhood they knew well could produce a crowd capable of the violence we saw in those riots to be assaulted and be the ONLY person of their color there to not decide that they needed to resort to deadly force .

Hell I could even see the cop's lawyer pursuing a temporary insanity , it's so easy for all of us to consider Browns humanity , he died he was the biggest loser here ,but as a society we expect far more from the police than most any of us maybe none of us can deliver.

BTW that ejection of Shane Ray was bogus ,ain't sayin the game was lost there ,but IMO it could have been a lot closer

 

[rhinobean]

From all I can tell about that case the hold the police officer had on him was according to police practice not a choke,the sad thing is his "crime" was selling loose cigarettes to people who couldn't afford a whole pack because of the inordinately high New York cigarette tax,which OF COURSE is regressive and saddles the poor .

The cigarette selling thing pissed me off! Give out a ticket! Minor offense that 5 cops are needed for! BS law enforcement at it's worst! This incident is the worst form of police brutality and my cop friends say so also!

 

[Thordaddy]

The cigarette selling thing pissed me off! Give out a ticket! Minor offense that 5 cops are needed for! BS law enforcement at it's worst! This incident is the worst form of police brutality and my cop friends say so also!

Seems the guy had multiple offences for it , which in the bigger picture illustrates that a government that tries to protect people from themselves ends in being one the people need to be protected from, cops, to do their job , get placed in the position of enforcing bullshit laws and are spending time that could better serve the public on further victimizing people.
FWIW drugs and cigs. are their own punishment, never will get the logic that when someone is willing to engage in a life threatening behavior that a law could be an effective deterrent.
Love listening to people railing about the imprudence of that tax and still thinking pot should be illegal.

 

[rhinobean]

Seems the guy had multiple offences for it , which in the bigger picture illustrates that a government that tries to protect people from themselves ends in being one the people need to be protected from, cops, to do their job , get placed in the position of enforcing bullcrap laws and are spending time that could better serve the public on further victimizing people.
FWIW drugs and cigs. are their own punishment, never will get the logic that when someone is willing to engage in a life threatening behavior that a law could be an effective deterrent.
Love listening to people railing about the imprudence of that tax and still thinking pot should be illegal.

It's not a dui/dwi where innocent people can be harmed! It's selling cigarettes! Sure did serve the purpose of getting the tax dollars by killing the perp! That will teach the next guy!

 

[Thordaddy]

It's not a dui/dwi where innocent people can be harmed! It's selling cigarettes! Sure did serve the purpose of getting the tax dollars by killing the perp! That will teach the next guy!

Yeah BUT ,isn't selecting which laws a cop DECIDES to enforce a problem as well, IMO shit rolls down hill and at the bottom of the hill taking most of the heat for all the self serving pols, administrators ,do gooders, and intellectually arrogant asshats are the police. I'm not trying to justify that mans death, I just think there is way to much empathy for some and not enough for cops ,they are expected to deliver perfection to people who don't,easy targets as it were, by the way I HAVE been on the wrong end of some overzealous police,but I have had cops cut me slack too.
ANY idea how many times those cops have told the guy to quit before that fateful encounter?

 

[rhinobean]

Yeah BUT ,isn't selecting which laws a cop DECIDES to enforce a problem as well, IMO crap rolls down hill and at the bottom of the hill taking most of the heat for all the self serving pols, administrators ,do gooders, and intellectually arrogant asshats are the police. I'm not trying to justify that mans death, I just think there is way to much empathy for some and not enough for cops ,they are expected to deliver perfection to people who don't,easy targets as it were, by the way I HAVE been on the wrong end of some overzealous police,but I have had cops cut me slack too.
ANY idea how many times those cops have told the guy to quit before that fateful encounter?

Perp was not innocent! Just an extreme enforcement for a petty crime! Have a few policemen friends so I hear their side! 1 had 40 years service in STL and another is STL now, 1 is STL county now. They don't defend the NYPD handling of the cig seller even if he was a big lug. Defuse the situation, don't escalate it is what they say!

 

[Thordaddy]

Perp was not innocent! Just an extreme enforcement for a petty crime! Have a few policemen friends so I hear their side! 1 had 40 years service in STL and another is STL now, 1 is STL county now. They don't defend the NYPD handling of the cig seller even if he was a big lug. Defuse the situation, don't escalate it is what they say!

Yeah that's usually the best ,tell your friends I appreciate their efforts

 

[rhinobean]

Yeah that's usually the best ,tell your friends I appreciate their efforts

Will do! I imagine I'll see 2 of them in the next month. The other is retired and out of state now! Never had kids so he and his missus moved to AZ!

 

[LesBaker]

A few weeks back a 12 year old (I believe, if not 12, then close to it) black kid was holding a toy gun at a park waving it at people at a park. A guy called it in, and said he was pretty sure the gun was fake, but wanted to be sure.

Cops roll up about 5 feet away from him, jump out of the car and shoot him in about 2 seconds. Granted dispatch didn't relay that it was possibly fake, but it was pretty bad, they didn't even give the kid a chance, I'm not sure they even said anything to him, it was damn near an execution... Not good.

That happened in my hometown. I don't live in Cleveland, I moved 4 years ago..........I talked to a couple of people about this though. One of the freeways was shut down but there wasn't any rioting like Ferguson.

It was awful and the dispatcher did in fact screw up, and the cops shot the kid. There is video, and it's hard to watch because while the cops didn't know he was a kid with a pellet gun of course I did as I was watching it and man it was horrible to see. I won't post it but you can find it on the web easily. The one officer that called back to the dispatcher sounded like he was in shock.

Now all that said, it was a pellet gun that had the orange tip removed, and was a replica so it looked like a real gun. The officers told him to get down and he reached and started pulling the gun from his waistband. They made the decision to shoot. It's difficult to place blame here. I may have pulled the trigger too because IMO youngsters are so immune to violence that I don't think they always understand the gravity of a situation like that.

Lawmakers in Ohio are pushing to have pellet guns manufactured in all bright colors because this has happened on more than a few occasions around the nation. It's so easy to pull the tip off, and then what you have is an air pistol or air rifle that looks like a real firearm.

I can't blame the officer in Ferguson, and I can't blame the ones in Cleveland. But the guy in New York should be in jail awaiting trial. That's fucking murder.

 

[LesBaker]

No, I don't think it's a coincidence. I think Johnson agreed with the officer's story because he realized that was his best shot of not having significant legal problems.

I'm saying he didn't agree unknowingly.

Isn't it totally within the realm of possibility that once all the witnesses were done with their interviews and the forensic evidence had been processed and it became completely obvious that he had lied and so they called him on it and gave him a second chance to avoid prosecuting him for perjuring himself?

For the record, that's what happened. The significant legal problems he was avoiding were of his own volition. He wasn't "agreeing with the officers story" jrry. He was telling the truth, agreeing with the truth, based on several eyewitness accounts and all of the forensic evidence.

And I think it was smart because had they been hard headed about it and foolishly brought charges the riots would have been worse even if the case never even went to court. Asking the kid "are you sure you don't wanna rethink this?" was the right thing to do.

 

[RamzFanz]

Perp was not innocent! Just an extreme enforcement for a petty crime! Have a few policemen friends so I hear their side! 1 had 40 years service in STL and another is STL now, 1 is STL county now. They don't defend the NYPD handling of the cig seller even if he was a big lug. Defuse the situation, don't escalate it is what they say!

I agree it should have went to trial but they didn't come for the cigarette selling, they didn't arrest him for the selling, and we don't know what happened before the arrest.

 

[RamzFanz]

No. I think his story doesn't make sense in certain parts and want him pressed on it. I don't assume his entire story is made up.

He can be embellishing parts of his story without the entire story being a lie.

It sounds embellished to me too. Not in a way that changes what happened but in a way that emphasizes his fear.

 

[LesBaker]

No. I think his story doesn't make sense in certain parts and want him pressed on it. I don't assume his entire story is made up.

He can be embellishing parts of his story without the entire story being a lie.

It's almost certain that there is some puffery, there always is in anyone's account of most anything, especially with something like this and so much on the line. Pressing for less of an embellished story wouldn't have changed anything, and it wouldn't have stopped the rioting.

 

[LesBaker]

they didn't arrest him for the selling

Because they were too busy suffocating him to death.

C'mon give them a break, that kind of multi-tasking isn't easy.

 

[jrry32]

Isn't it totally within the realm of possibility that once all the witnesses were done with their interviews and the forensic evidence had been processed and it became completely obvious that he had lied and so they called him on it and gave him a second chance to avoid prosecuting him for perjuring himself?

For the record, that's what happened. The significant legal problems he was avoiding were of his own volition. He wasn't "agreeing with the officers story" jrry. He was telling the truth, agreeing with the truth, based on several eyewitness accounts and all of the forensic evidence.

And I think it was smart because had they been hard headed about it and foolishly brought charges the riots would have been worse even if the case never even went to court. Asking the kid "are you sure you don't wanna rethink this?" was the right thing to do.

Or the guy started out with BS story to confirm what he thought would support Brown. The cops gave him a chance to change it without being charged, fed him some information(even possibly unintentionally) and he decided to tell them what he thought they wanted to hear.

Regardless, the guy isn't credible. I'm not buying any story he tells.

It's almost certain that there is some puffery, there always is in anyone's account of most anything, especially with something like this and so much on the line. Pressing for less of an embellished story wouldn't have changed anything, and it wouldn't have stopped the rioting.

Pressing it is the job of the prosecutor. It would have changed something...it would have changed the job they did from inadequate to acceptable.

 

[bluecoconuts]

That happened in my hometown. I don't live in Cleveland, I moved 4 years ago..........I talked to a couple of people about this though. One of the freeways was shut down but there wasn't any rioting like Ferguson.

It was awful and the dispatcher did in fact screw up, and the cops shot the kid. There is video, and it's hard to watch because while the cops didn't know he was a kid with a pellet gun of course I did as I was watching it and man it was horrible to see. I won't post it but you can find it on the web easily. The one officer that called back to the dispatcher sounded like he was in shock.

Now all that said, it was a pellet gun that had the orange tip removed, and was a replica so it looked like a real gun. The officers told him to get down and he reached and started pulling the gun from his waistband. They made the decision to shoot. It's difficult to place blame here. I may have pulled the trigger too because IMO youngsters are so immune to violence that I don't think they always understand the gravity of a situation like that.

Lawmakers in Ohio are pushing to have pellet guns manufactured in all bright colors because this has happened on more than a few occasions around the nation. It's so easy to pull the tip off, and then what you have is an air pistol or air rifle that looks like a real firearm.

I can't blame the officer in Ferguson, and I can't blame the ones in Cleveland. But the guy in New York should be in jail awaiting trial. That's freaking murder.

I dunno man, although I can certainly understand how the officers thought it was real, no doubt about that, but all their other actions, I think they did a lot wrong there. Pulling up that close, getting out of the car with nothing between you and the shooter about 10 feet away, shooting within 2 seconds of pulling up, before your partner can even get out of the car? That's way too fast on the trigger.

I don't know what that department teaches, but it can't be that. If he had pulled up from a reasonable distance, taken cover and drew down, gave the order to put his hands up, and then shot? I wouldn't have an issue. I think most sensible officers would say they wouldn't ever pull up to someone with a gun like that, the guys I talk to at my work (most are retired or current law enforcement) about that, almost every single one said they would never put themselves in that much risk (assuming the gun is real) unless they were planning on shooting quickly.

That doesn't mean they were rolling up planning on killing him, but I think they were ready to shoot and put themselves in a position where they were more likely to shoot than not, which isn't what you want from police. Given both of the officers had issues (the shooter was removed from another department because they deemed him unfit for duty, and the driver had been hit with an excessive force charge that the city had to pay for) as well, I think they weren't in the right frame of mind personally.

Again I don't think they were rolling up going "Yeah, we're gonna go kill someone" but their actions show a disregard for public safety and I'd say there's a lot of blame there.

 

[LesBaker]

Or the guy started out with BS story to confirm what he thought would support Brown. The cops gave him a chance to change it without being charged, fed him some information(even possibly unintentionally) and he decided to tell them what he thought they wanted to hear.

Regardless, the guy isn't credible. I'm not buying any story he tells.



Pressing it is the job of the prosecutor. It would have changed something...it would have changed the job they did from inadequate to acceptable.

Jrry what this one witness said doesn't really change a thing.

Sending it to trial for a jury to say he was not guilty would have spurred a new set of riots IMO.

 

[LesBaker]

I dunno man, although I can certainly understand how the officers thought it was real, no doubt about that, but all their other actions, I think they did a lot wrong there. Pulling up that close, getting out of the car with nothing between you and the shooter about 10 feet away, shooting within 2 seconds of pulling up, before your partner can even get out of the car? That's way too fast on the trigger.

I don't know what that department teaches, but it can't be that. If he had pulled up from a reasonable distance, taken cover and drew down, gave the order to put his hands up, and then shot? I wouldn't have an issue. I think most sensible officers would say they wouldn't ever pull up to someone with a gun like that, the guys I talk to at my work (most are retired or current law enforcement) about that, almost every single one said they would never put themselves in that much risk (assuming the gun is real) unless they were planning on shooting quickly.

That doesn't mean they were rolling up planning on killing him, but I think they were ready to shoot and put themselves in a position where they were more likely to shoot than not, which isn't what you want from police. Given both of the officers had issues (the shooter was removed from another department because they deemed him unfit for duty, and the driver had been hit with an excessive force charge that the city had to pay for) as well, I think they weren't in the right frame of mind personally.

Again I don't think they were rolling up going "Yeah, we're gonna go kill someone" but their actions show a disregard for public safety and I'd say there's a lot of blame there.

It's so difficult when it happens that fast and someone is reaching for what you see as a gun? What do you do? It's not an easy situation.

 

[jrry32]

Jrry what this one witness said doesn't really change a thing.

Sending it to trial for a jury to say he was not guilty would have spurred a new set of riots IMO.

Then don't send it to trial. If you don't believe it can go to trial:
A) Present the case like a real prosecutor and trust the grand jury to do their jobs
or
B) Drop the charges

 

[Thordaddy]

Was there a grassy knoll anywhere around?