New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[RamFan503]

And with the threat of relocation just a few months away, only the Rams are doing that to their fan base

Yes... Only the Rams are practicing in their future home of Oxnard. The Chargers have never been rumored to be moving to LA over the many years they practiced in facilities less than 5 miles from Carson. It all makes sense now. They had secretly been eyeing Carson every time they drove by.

The Chargers have long been rumored to be moving to LA during all their "negotiations". So yeah - other teams have. The Seahawks moved their practice facilities to LA when they were trying to get the King Dome replaced - amid threatening to move to LA. The Minny owner parked a plane at LAX. All potentially dick moves but nothing ground breaking or particularly new.

 

[RamFan503]

The fans and university professor who tried to have the Mayor removed from the case.

Wait! What? This is similar how?

 

[bluecoconuts]

Didn't say it was similar - just pointing out he's also had people to try to remove him too.

Although I think its pretty funny if we're gonna start comparing which owners have been alienating their fans - think the Rams win that one hands down. I mean hell corporate sales aren't wanting to commit their money until they hear a commitment from Stan to St.Louis... Money talks, and I think that speaks volumes about how people feel about Stan's true intentions.

Then how is it relevant? You might as well have referenced the Leinster Rugby team because the ball is a similar shape.

It's not a comparison either, I'm not saying anyone has it worse, I'm saying the Chargers fans can and do feel alienated and screwed over by the owners and Fabiani. Saying that they can't make the claim is wrong.

 

[bluecoconuts]

OK, after reading this, I am firmly convinced we will never agree on this subject.

Kroenke: "I know the team has gone 7-8-1, 7-9 and 6-10 since I took full ownership. I know that the franchise experienced the worst stretch of losing in their history while I was part owner.
But, gentlemen, I'd like you to understand that those events had nothing to do with dwindling support the past year. There simply is no correlation."

Good luck, Stan.. if that's the argument.

Done with this angle...

I think the main difference is you assume the NFL is going to ask Kroenke to explain the lack of corporate support and he's going to fumble around and talk about records and how he improved. I don't see it going that way at all.

I expect them to ask him why he needs to move, and among the reasons he's going to say lack of support in St Louis. If he really wants to move, I expect him to fight dirty, talk about limited market size, talk about how there's only so much to go around due to the limited size and how the Cardinals will always take a majority of that regardless of how good his team is, use the NFL's own words against them and point out how they didn't think it was good back in 94, etc. If he's looking to move and looking to make an argument, I expect him to come out fighting dirty. I think that when the city is pitching their final proposal to the NFL they need to address every potential argument that Kroenke is going to make and how they have a solution for it if needed. If they simply state that the Rams need to be better to get support, I don't think they're going to get far.

 

[RamFan503]

Too many pages ago... but it was brought up that the Rams support has been waning of late.

I suggested that maybe it was due to the product...

You continue to suggest improvement ought to be enough to stop the slide... that this improvement might help Kroenke suggest he's leaving because, despite improving the product, support continues to fall.

I (and others) are suggesting that, despite "improvement", the product is still lacking enough that there isn't a compelling reason for corporations to continue to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars for a suite that people aren't inclined to visit because the product on the field is lacking... despite the "improvement".

In other words, there hasn't been enough improvement to cause a ground swell of support (yet)... either at the consumer or corporate level.

To think people (consumers and corporations) should continue to spend considerable amounts of money on a team that has gone backwards the past three years is hard for me to grasp.

You're a corporate suite holder and you're having trouble entertaining customers because they don't want to come to the games because the team has gone 7-8-1, 7-9 and 6-10 the past three years.
You wouldn't seriously consider selling that suite? Y
ou'd keep paying thousands for an empty suite?
I'm thinking not?

One last thought... at least in the case of the suites, those are not "fans"... they don't live on "potential"... many do not drink kool-aid... they want to be part of a winner!

I think if part of Kroenke's case for leaving is that he's improved this product so much but the support is still not strong... well, I think he'd be barking at the moon.

Good piece here.

I would only say that I have been offered corporate box seats 7 times and taken them every time. Unfortunately none of them were ever for an NFL game but Blazers, Ducks, and Beavers. One was the Blazers v Hornets when the Blazers were in their Trail Gangsta days and Charlotte sucked out loud. Even then, the suite was full. The Beavers club suite is an interesting deal. It is one big suite but you have to be a large booster to have a stake. But even though the Beavs kinda sucked when I went and we were playing the Vandals the place was full.

My point is that from my experience, corporations give these tickets away and are able to expense them. Every time I have been in a corporate suite, the place was at capacity. I find it very hard to believe that corporations couldn't give the tickets away to very appreciative employees, distributors, and others. After all, if you have been in those suites, that is pretty much who is there. I have rarely seen the president of a given company in the suite - only once and that was because he was a big booster and I was trying to get a big political contribution from him.

Still I would agree that corporations are not going to be inclined to pay a bunch of money for a bad product. But those that buy the suites, will never have a problem finding takers for those tickets no matter how bad the product. It's an NFL game - regardless.

 

[MrMotes]

From that article Goose posted in case people didn't read it all the way through.

View: https://twitter.com/DailyNewsVinny/status/616298646305255424

 

[RamFan503]

I just have to respectfully disagree on the assumption that a man like Kroenke, who's clearly into the power thing, just sat back was was told "Stan, when we want your input, we'll ask you".

Fact is, neither of us know what was (or was not said) by Kroenke. But, reading about how he operates (he gets what he wants), I'm having a hard time believing he was this outsider and had nothing to do with the decisions that were made (bad decisions).

With all due respect to your uncle, just because it worked that was with Davis (who we know was a control freak), that doesn't mean that's how majority and minority owners always work. I mean, they don't discuss important issues? If the minority owner is very well regarded (as I'm sure Kroenke is), he/she is sumamarily dismissed because - well- them's the rules... you're a minority owner so you get no say? Just don't think it's that iron clad.

The "rules" may say one thing... but basic human interaction when lots of money is involved says another to me.

I'm afraid you wouldn't be able to convince me that Kroenke didn't get a say (regardless of the rules) and shouldn't be held accountable (at least in part) for the dismal record the team has had while he has had a stake in it.

Don't know what to tell you. Talk to someone who deals with the legal side of corporate partnerships.

 

[blue4]

'Sorry to laugh but she called Baltimore her adoptive hometown during the negotiations. The guarantees were bigger in St Louis.

Frontiere later said moving the team to St. Louis also "was a dream come true for me. St. Louis is my home, and I brought my team here to start a new dynasty."

I'll take you word for it she wanted Baltimore.

Like I said before, Stan learned from the master.

 

[RamFan503]

Wasn't the main determining factor the owner wanting to go to her hometown?

Right. So with a stadium already there and her "home town" pitching it to anyone who would listen, why would they go after Baltimore and then switch to St Louis when the deal got sweeter? Not sure I'd put much loyalty value to a woman who was married 7 times and allegedly had a sailor in every port. But maybe that's just me.

 

[MrMotes]

Don't know what to tell you. Talk to someone who deals with the legal side of corporate partnerships.

So Stan hired Spagnulo as minority owner but who knows what his intentions are re relocation?

 

[Rmfnlt]

I think the main difference is you assume the NFL is going to ask Kroenke to explain the lack of corporate support and he's going to fumble around and talk about records and how he improved. I don't see it going that way at all.

I expect them to ask him why he needs to move, and among the reasons he's going to say lack of support in St Louis. If he really wants to move, I expect him to fight dirty, talk about limited market size, talk about how there's only so much to go around due to the limited size and how the Cardinals will always take a majority of that regardless of how good his team is, use the NFL's own words against them and point out how they didn't think it was good back in 94, etc. If he's looking to move and looking to make an argument, I expect him to come out fighting dirty. I think that when the city is pitching their final proposal to the NFL they need to address every potential argument that Kroenke is going to make and how they have a solution for it if needed. If they simply state that the Rams need to be better to get support, I don't think they're going to get far.

Wait... I have never seen it that the city gets to plead their case to the NFL.

In that case, Kroenke wins!

 

[Rmfnlt]

So Stan hired Spagnulo as minority owner but who knows what his intentions are re relocation?

Cute.

 

[Goose]

View: https://twitter.com/DailyNewsVinny/status/616298646305255424

To add a bit more to Mr. Motes post:

 

[blue4]

I think the main difference is you assume the NFL is going to ask Kroenke to explain the lack of corporate support and he's going to fumble around and talk about records and how he improved. I don't see it going that way at all.

I expect them to ask him why he needs to move, and among the reasons he's going to say lack of support in St Louis. If he really wants to move, I expect him to fight dirty, talk about limited market size, talk about how there's only so much to go around due to the limited size and how the Cardinals will always take a majority of that regardless of how good his team is, use the NFL's own words against them and point out how they didn't think it was good back in 94, etc. If he's looking to move and looking to make an argument, I expect him to come out fighting dirty. I think that when the city is pitching their final proposal to the NFL they need to address every potential argument that Kroenke is going to make and how they have a solution for it if needed. If they simply state that the Rams need to be better to get support, I don't think they're going to get far.

I think they'll be able to refute every argument. Stan's not the only smart guy around and he's making shaky arguments. One need only point to the GSOT era to see the nonsense about the Cardinals getting the majority of the support is not true. His problem is going to be his own teams ineptitude. It gets in the way of every argument he makes.

What words did the NFL have for ST Louis in 94? IIRC they gave us extra time to sort thru lease and ownership problems. Fan support for the Stallions was very high.

 

[blue4]

I still stand by it, Chargers fans feel just as alienated and screwed over by Spanos and have every right to complain, practice or no practice.

Nobody said they didn't. You said that he said that and then argued against it.

 

[blue4]

Right. So with a stadium already there and her "home town" pitching it to anyone who would listen, why would they go after Baltimore and then switch to St Louis when the deal got sweeter? Not sure I'd put much loyalty value to a woman who was married 7 times and allegedly had a sailor in every port. But maybe that's just me.

I'm not putting loyalty value on anything, merely asking a question. When you Google 1994 and Rams stuff nothing much about Baltimore comes up. I was in the service in 1994, I don't know much about the ins and outs.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Wait... I have never seen it that the city gets to plead their case to the NFL.

In that case, Kroenke wins!

They're letting Peacock and them give them their proposal, I'm just guessing they'll let Kroenke give the last word. I'd imagine the NFL is going to do their research for votes with such large billion dollar ramifications as this one does.

What words did the NFL have for ST Louis in 94? IIRC they gave us extra time to sort thru lease and ownership problems. Fan support for the Stallions was very high.

I believe when the Rams were trying to move, and when they awarded the expansion team to Jacksonville they cited different reasons and some of it was they weren't sure about St Louis over the long term.

Nobody said they didn't. You said that he said that and then argued against it.

Iced said they didn't:

[Krorenke's] done nothing but alienate the fan base for the past few years - something you can't complain about the Chargers. They're not screwing over their fans

To which I replied that Chargers fans feel plenty alienated and screwed over.

 

[RamFan503]

I'm not putting loyalty value on anything, merely asking a question. When you Google 1994 and Rams stuff nothing much about Baltimore comes up. I was in the service in 1994, I don't know much about the ins and outs.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-18/sports/sp-59202_1_ram-owner-georgia-frontier
BALTIMORE — Peter G. Angelos, who met last week with Ram officials about possibly moving the team to Baltimore, said owner Georgia Frontiere "expressed a soft spot" for the city and that he is optimistic about the chances of procuring an NFL franchise.

Angelos, managing partner of the Baltimore Orioles, flew to Los Angeles last Thursday. He met with John Shaw, Ram executive vice president, and had dinner at Frontiere's Bel-Air home.

"She's a very gracious lady, and I thought the evening produced a very clear conclusion that all parties were very compatible," Angelos said Tuesday in his first public comment on the meeting.
"The meeting went very well," Angelos said. "Obviously, we intend to follow through."

Angelos said Frontiere, widow of former Baltimore Colts and Rams owner Carroll Rosenbloom, "feels in a sense that she is a Baltimorean, and she said Baltimore should have a team and is a great sports town."

First one I found and how perfect is the bolded statement?

 

[RamFan503]

This doesn't even include the reduced off season stuff for fans that was being reported a few months ago... Those poor starving Fans in Africa...

I assume you are talking about the rumored cancelled events and such that Demoff addressed as being untrue?

“Plaintiffs allege nothing more than the governor’s use of the bully pulpit to advocate for the construction of a new stadium in St. Louis,” Mr. Koster’s staff argues in a brief seeking dismissal of the lawmaker’s lawsuit.

This was what I was really having a hard time swallowing. Is this really their legal answer to the suit brought by the Senators? Can anyone explain - and not from a fan perspective - how this is a defensible position? With Goodell speaking about how it is rare to have a Governor so deeply involved in the process and Peacock/Blitz uniformly known as being appointed by the Governor, etc... How exactly is he on the sidelines?

Artz’ so called “expert”

Another part of this whole nonsense is who Matthew Artz uses as his expert. Who is it you may ask? None other than Marc Ganis, the same man who was dismissed as Coliseum Marketing Director after news of him falsifying his credentials and degrees from Syracuse University broke during the 1990’s. It is in part thanks to Ganis that we, the tax payers of Alameda County, are still stuck with paying off the renovations to the Coliseum as he was the one paid to produce the studies for fan support on premium seats for the renovation project.

So let me get this straight and see how this makes any bloody sense at all to anyone: a guy who is some what the reason it has cost Oakland and Alameda County $400 million since 1996 for the remodeling can be looked to as an “expert” and say Coliseum City is a bad deal when he partly caused one of the worst sports deals in Bay Area history? How can you take a guy like Ganis seriously at all knowing what he did and why he was removed from his position with the Coliseum? Pure and simple, you can not take Marc Ganis seriously at all. In fact, Marc shouldn’t even be opening his mouth at all on this matter. He has no right to say anything after what he did in 1990’s while working here.

This is something I have brought up several times. I urge anyone wanting to cite Ganis as an expert on anything to find out what he specifically does, what is his background, or why anyone should consider anything that he says. Seriously. The dude is mentioned as some sort of authority and I can guarantee you that no one knows what he has done except that is name is on a report just prior to being fired for lying about his credentials. The dude is a fraud.

Didn't say it was similar - just pointing out he's also had people to try to remove him too.

Come on man. You answered BCs point about SD suing to have Fabiani removed with the contention that St Louis has done the same thing and then produced this as evidence. It's ok to say oops.

Frontiere later said moving the team to St. Louis also "was a dream come true for me. St. Louis is my home, and I brought my team here to start a new dynasty."

And here I was expecting her to say, "Well we really wanted Baltimore but couldn't get a deal worked out that would keep up my showgirl lifestyle. Instead, we settled for St Louis because they were willing to sign this absolutely ridiculous lease that guaranteed me huge jack." My bad.

So Stan hired Spagnulo as minority owner but who knows what his intentions are re relocation?

OK - consider me confused by this.

Nobody said they didn't. You said that he said that and then argued against it.

Actually - he did.

 

[Pancake]

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-18/sports/sp-59202_1_ram-owner-georgia-frontier
BALTIMORE — Peter G. Angelos, who met last week with Ram officials about possibly moving the team to Baltimore, said owner Georgia Frontiere "expressed a soft spot" for the city and that he is optimistic about the chances of procuring an NFL franchise.

Angelos, managing partner of the Baltimore Orioles, flew to Los Angeles last Thursday. He met with John Shaw, Ram executive vice president, and had dinner at Frontiere's Bel-Air home.

"She's a very gracious lady, and I thought the evening produced a very clear conclusion that all parties were very compatible," Angelos said Tuesday in his first public comment on the meeting.
"The meeting went very well," Angelos said. "Obviously, we intend to follow through."

Angelos said Frontiere, widow of former Baltimore Colts and Rams owner Carroll Rosenbloom, "feels in a sense that she is a Baltimorean, and she said Baltimore should have a team and is a great sports town."

First one I found and how perfect is the bolded statement?

Wow, what a piece of work she was. She would have said she was a martian if they were willing to cough up the best deal.