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blue4

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I thought I was being clear, but I guess not.

I don't give a freak about public money being used for a stadium.

If a city wants to do that then good for them. As long as they don't put others on the hook then I don't care one bit, and as long as they want it then cool.

As far as a I know St Louis doesn't put others on the hook, so I don't care. I assume most of the city supports it as well. Inglewood certainly did, overwhelmingly so. If they were against it then I'd say it wasn't right to pass it. Not because of any tax reasons, but because if they don't want the stadium then it shouldn't be forced on them.

That being said, my point was and continues to be that the Inglewood project is different. They are taking only profits and only after a certain threshold is made. It means that taxes don't come the individual person. They're not seeing their taxes rise any.

And again they're paying for city infrastructure upgrades that typically the city needs to pay for. Sewage, water, power, etc. When stadiums are built those aren't usually factored into the cost and thus the city take money from elsewhere and uses it for those upgrades. Kroenke is paying for them upfront and asking the city to reimburse him using only the profits that the project gets.

Its money that the city would otherwise get, but its not tax dollars from each citizen. The money could have been funded into different projects or even put away for a rainy day fund or something, who knows.

But it is different from what St Louis is doing, and when people get to equate the two they're incorrect to do so.

But again, so I'm clear, I don't give a single freak about how the stadiums get funded. If the funding is there then its there. I wont be paying for it either way.

*Edit* also this "you're either with us or against us" black and white argument is a really poor one. Life is never black and white, things always change situation to situation.

Nobody's arguing it's black and white, in fact we're arguing the situation is anything but black and white. You can see people's views changing and evolving over 145 pages as more news becomes available. You've been pretty relentless about Stan's ability to do whatever he wants and have been pretty critical of anything STL and pretty not critical of everything Inglewood. That's fine, everyone has different opinions, and you may well turn out to be correct in everything you say. It's just not fair to accuse others of being too black and white when you are pretty black and white yourself.
 

bluecoconuts

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I think we can all agree a new stadium would benefit both cities regardless of who's playing in them. I think the point of the conversation isn't the merits of the stadium but the fact that the media portrays the Inglewood plan as totally private financing. It's really only totally private in the initial stages, then the repayment starts. I don't think anyone doubts that it'll be good for Inglewood

They're not paying for the stadium itself though, its for other aspects that normally cities pay for themselves during these projects.
 

blue4

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They're not paying for the stadium itself though, its for other aspects that normally cities pay for themselves during these projects.

You are correct, and it's a point I misunderstood earlier. I still kinda like the STL deal better as the city maintains control, but I doubt Stan does and it'll be a harder sell for sure.
 

bluecoconuts

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Nobody's arguing it's black and white, in fact we're arguing the situation is anything but black and white. You can see people's views changing and evolving over 145 pages as more news becomes available. You've been pretty relentless about Stan's ability to do whatever he wants and have been pretty critical of anything STL and pretty not critical of everything Inglewood. That's fine, everyone has different opinions, and you may well turn out to be correct in everything you say. It's just not fair to accuse others of being too black and white when you are pretty black and white yourself.

Boiling it down to either for or against public financing is making it black and white. I'm for public financing if the public wants to do it, but I don't think you should force the public into financing a stadium if they don't want to. Therefore I am both for and against public financing, it's situation depending.

I've already said I have no issue with the St. Louis stadium financing, if the public wants it, let them do it that way.

There are a lot of things I like about the St Louis stadium, and there's a lot of things I don't like about the Inglewood stadium. There's a lot of things I don't really know about the Inglewood stadium though, so it's hard to be critical on the physical look of the stadium. One of the things I didn't like about the St Louis stadium was that it felt too bland, but the updated look I think is much nicer, and I really like it.

I'm not critical about the Inglewood financing because I don't see issues with it. I feel that some people are either confused on how it is, or are trying to make it something it isn't to make it seem worse, I'm attempting to correct that. The only issue I have with the St Louis financing is that it's not in order yet. Once they get it all in order, and the backing is in place, then cool.

Otherwise I don't see much wrong with the St Louis stadium. I don't see much wrong with the Inglewood stadium either. Frankly either venue would be great for the Rams.

I think now we need to wait for Kroenke to weigh his options, and see what is best. Neither stadium is bad for the Rams, it's up to him to look at the pro's and con's for each site and see what he wants to do. I'm pretty set on the idea that ultimately he will do what he wants to do, and I don't have faith in the NFL to stop him. That's just me being cynical mostly though, it's not any reflection on St Louis. I love St Louis, I love visiting there, I'm excited to move there. I love LA too, don't get me wrong, but ultimately a city is a city.
 

bluecoconuts

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You are correct, and it's a point I misunderstood earlier. I still kinda like the STL deal better as the city maintains control, but I doubt Stan does and it'll be a harder sell for sure.

Especially after the Jones Dome deal, I can see why the city wants to own the venue. I'm kind of hoping that they're saving the "And you can own it" as the cherry on top that gets him to sign up, or something similar to that note. I dunno we'll see how it all goes down, I'm sure there's wiggle room there that'll help sway him if he's on the fence.

Although interesting note about owning the venue, Carson owning that stadium and then leasing it to the teams seems weird to me. I'm not sure how that works out, I guess it's so there's not one owner over the other, but does that mean they pay an extra fee on top? It just seems strange to me how that sounds, but maybe I'm reading it wrong.
 

RamFan503

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The money for the infrastructure upgrades is already being spent, stadium or no stadium. It's an entirely separate thing really, its upgrades to the city infrastructure for the entire 300 acre project, not just the stadium, and thus the reimbursement is from the entire 300 acre project, not just what comes from the stadium.

A stadium just makes it faster and easier to make up the money they spent.
I believe the added infrastructure requirements for the stadium are paid for by the developer as well.
 

Prime Time

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Congratulations to all who have participated in this thread. It is now the most posted in thread at ROD with 2,925 posts having just passed 'Song of the Day' with 2,917 posts. In third place is the 'Re: Introduce Yourself' thread with 2,275 posts. That is all. Carry on. (y)
 

mr.stlouis

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Momentum is on STL's side, undoubtedly. Surprisingly it didn't flip right back after Butts backed off a bit.

Lots of time, Peacock is doing a great job building the Rams's new Riverfront home.
 

tonyl711

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No.... if St Louis is doing things wrong then they are doing things wrong. If Inglewood is doing things wrong then they are doing things wrong. If the two entities have different rules then there is no parallel. But that doesn't mean St Louis (the Governor - I suppose in reality)should have to do anything it/he is not obligated to do. This is not a tit for tat. Inglewood representatives did what was required of them. If your assembly votes to restrict Nixon's powers - that is completely unrelated to anything that happened in Inglewood.

The point being that the funding in St Louis could be affected by your representatives pushing for a vote. The funding in Inglewood is not an issue.
I know what my point was, don't need you to clarify it for me. he was saying that it was wrong that Nixon could circumvent a public vote and im saying then its wrong that Inglewood doesn't get a public vote. and yes there is a parallel in that neither are putting it up to a vote publicly.
 

tonyl711

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Nobody's arguing it's black and white, in fact we're arguing the situation is anything but black and white. You can see people's views changing and evolving over 145 pages as more news becomes available. You've been pretty relentless about Stan's ability to do whatever he wants and have been pretty critical of anything STL and pretty not critical of everything Inglewood. That's fine, everyone has different opinions, and you may well turn out to be correct in everything you say. It's just not fair to accuse others of being too black and white when you are pretty black and white yourself.
he does try to shoot down anything St Louis and trumpet anything LA, he refuses to listen to anything that says its not going to go exactly as he thinks it will, I stopped talking to him, its like talking to a wall, I have nothing against the man but on this issue he will argue anything that isn't pro LA.
 

bluecoconuts

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he does try to shoot down anything St Louis and trumpet anything LA, he refuses to listen to anything that says its not going to go exactly as he thinks it will, I stopped talking to him, its like talking to a wall, I have nothing against the man but on this issue he will argue anything that isn't pro LA.

You've completely misread most of my posts then. Just because I don't sit there and pretend like Inglewood isn't a viable option doesn't mean I'm against St Louis. I have argued for St Louis's side when there has been misinterpretation from the LA side.
 

den-the-coach

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You've completely misread most of my posts then. Just because I don't sit there and pretend like Inglewood isn't a viable option doesn't mean I'm against St Louis. I have argued for St Louis's side when there has been misinterpretation from the LA side.

This is very simple, both seem like great options nobody truly knows how this is going to play out with the exception of Stan Kroenke and the NFL. Bottom line when this is all said and done, it's high time that the Rams as an organization focus on winning football games because if you win and win consistently they will watch you in Timbuktu or Tipperary as well as in the Gateway City and the City of Angels.
 

dbrooks25

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You've completely misread most of my posts then. Just because I don't sit there and pretend like Inglewood isn't a viable option doesn't mean I'm against St Louis. I have argued for St Louis's side when there has been misinterpretation from the LA side.
I'm not trying to start anything, but I have read pretty much every page in this thread and I don't recall you arguing for St. Louis' side. If it weren't for you constantly saying you would rather the Rams stay I would think you are pro LA. I dunno, but your comments throughout this thread screams that you are pro LA, imo. There is nothing wrong with anyone being pro LA, btw.
 

bluecoconuts

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I'm not trying to start anything, but I have read pretty much every page in this thread and I don't recall you arguing for St. Louis' side. If it weren't for you constantly saying you would rather the Rams stay I would think you are pro LA. I dunno, but your comments throughout this thread screams that you are pro LA, imo. There is nothing wrong with anyone being pro LA, btw.

I get that, I think part of it is that in most of this thread I'm arguing that Inglewood is a viable option. So when people dismiss it, I'm trying to convey that it is indeed a real option and a good one.

I think people are assuming that by saying that I'm saying I'd rather that one.

Same as my opinion that Stan could likely win a lawsuit and I don't think the NFL has the balls to even challenge him, I'm not trying to say that's what I want or even what will happen, I just don't really trust the NFL.

Also the way the thread is, I almost never have a need to argue for St Louis. I have done it though. Elsewhere I argue that St Louis is a viable option as well. Just haven't needed to here. Again, I love St Louis, in fact I'm the one convincing my girlfriend to go back home to visit, she never wants to. And its not because I like her family or they like me.:LOL:
 

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I know what my point was, don't need you to clarify it for me. he was saying that it was wrong that Nixon could circumvent a public vote and im saying then its wrong that Inglewood doesn't get a public vote. and yes there is a parallel in that neither are putting it up to a vote publicly.

I understand you want to try and correlate the 2 situations, but they are different.

The City Coucil in Inglewood gave approval for the land at the old Hollywood Park site to be used for building a football stadium. It had nothing to do with how it will be paid for. They raised enough signatures by city statute to allow the City Council to make the decision.

In Missouri, the question being put forth is whether the Govorner can propose using public funds (tax money) to build a Football stadium in St Louis.
 

RamFan503

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I know what my point was, don't need you to clarify it for me. he was saying that it was wrong that Nixon could circumvent a public vote and im saying then its wrong that Inglewood doesn't get a public vote. and yes there is a parallel in that neither are putting it up to a vote publicly.
It was pretty obvious how the public in Inglewood would have voted by the ease of collecting more than twice the required signatures in support of the project. So the representatives elected by the citizens to make decisions affecting the city voted unanimously to sign off on the project that requires no monetary outlay by the taxpayers. And yes they also had an open public meeting to discuss it.

There is not such an obvious support by the voters of the entire state of Missouri for a stadium in one of its cities and the idea that the Governor can make that unilateral decision without going to either the assembly or the voters is being challenged. The two are not even close to the same thing.

If the Governor is successful in fighting off this challenge and is able to secure funding then I would assume he is doing it legally. And in reality, that is probably the way he should go if he can do it, as it would mean far less delays. But his being able to do that is anything but guaranteed at this point. That the elected officials and the mayor of Inglewood have voted to pass the stadium initiative is guaranteed as it is already a done deal. It can go forward without a further vote and is not contingent on public funding in order to build it.

BTW - I don't remember Den saying what the Governor is trying to do is wrong. Maybe I missed it.
 

den-the-coach

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BTW - I don't remember Den saying what the Governor is trying to do is wrong. Maybe I missed it.

Well, with the last name of Nixon, you never know?;) However, IMO, the Governor has been amazing IMO and if not the courage of his fearless crew the Rams would be lost!
 

12intheBox

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http://voiceofsandiego.org/topics/news/goldman-sachs-wants-chargers-los-angeles/

Investment bank Goldman Sachs wants the Chargers to move to Los Angeles. They also want the Rams to stay in St. Louis, and out of Los Angeles.

The firm is working diligently on both fronts.

Those are not Goldman’s publicly stated positions, of course, but it doesn’t take much analysis to arrive at this conclusion.

SportsBusiness Journal’s Daniel Kaplan, citing unnamed sources, reported Monday that Goldman Sachs will finance the Chargers’ costs of moving to L.A. by covering “any operating losses suffered by the team in the first few years in that city as well as costs for any renovations needed in a temporary venue.” If they relocate, the Chargers are expected to play in the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum or the Rose Bowl while a new L.A.-area stadium is under construction.

Chargers special counsel Mark Fabiani confirmed to ESPN that the Chargers have a long-standing working relationship with Goldman and that the firm will work with them on financing a new stadium in the Los Angeles market.

“We are in a hyper-competitive environment regarding Los Angeles at this moment, and so we won’t be releasing specifics on our work with Goldman Sachs,” Fabiani told ESPN. “The bottom line is that we, along with Goldman Sachs, are completely confident that the Raiders/Chargers L.A. stadium proposal can feasibly be financed.”

Fabiani has been less than fully transparent about the Chargers’ dealings with Goldman Sachs as recently as January, when herefuted a report out of St. Louis that the team and firm had reached an agreement to build a stadium in L.A.

Goldman’s relationship with the Chargers is not new. (Nor are Fabiani and Goldman strangers.) Covering the team’s losses and renovation costs related to relocation, if true, is definitely a new wrinkle.

Meanwhile, Goldman Sachs managing director Greg Carey is advising Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon’s task force on building a publicly funded stadium to keep the Rams from moving to Los Angeles. The St. Louis Regional Convention and Sports Complex Authority hired Goldman two years ago to find ways to keep the Rams, or at least NFL football, in St. Louis.

Bloomberg:

the [Missouri task force] has a potent player in Greg Carey, a 54-year-old Goldman Sachs Group Inc. banker who is known in professional sports circles as the guru of stadium financing. Under Carey, Goldman Sachs has worked on more than two dozen stadium deals, the company says, amounting to more than $11 billion in financing.

Carey’s specialty is crafting deals that are lucrative for team owners, often at the expense of taxpayers. What sets him apart, say his clients and critics, is his ability to steer projects through conflicting interests of teams and local government officials. He often does so by using obscure tools available in public finance to help owners get low-interest loans, avoid taxes or tap subsidies.

Carey also steered financing of the San Francisco 49ers $1.27 billion stadium in Santa Clara, cited by Fabiani as a template for the proposed Raiders/Chargers stadium in Carson.

49ers management and Goldman executives touted their work on the Santa Clara stadium in apromotional video.

“It was one of the most exciting transactions that I’ve been able to work on in my career,” Carey says in the video. “We actually committed $850 million of our own capital as a construction loan to ensure that the stadium could be built.” (It’sslightly more complicated than that.)

Carey was understandably excited about financing an $850 million loan. San Diegans might be less than excited about the implications of Goldman’s involvement with the Chargers and their prospects of remaining in San Diego.

Goldman Sachs could not expect to earn nearly as much in commissions, fees and interest from a San Diego stadium as they would from the proposed Raiders/Chargers stadium in Carson. The Carson proposal is for a privately financed $1.7 billion stadium, modeled after the financing used for the 49ers stadium in Santa Clara.

The Chargers described their view of the different market situations in a statement announcing their partnership with the Raiders:

A stadium can be financed in Los Angeles because the LA-Orange County-Inland Empire marketplace is able to support the sale of hundreds of millions of dollars of Personal Seat Licenses (PSLs) or Stadium Builder Licenses (SBLs). These licenses provide a significant amount of funding for the stadium project, as the City of Santa Clara and the 49ers recently demonstrated with the public-private partnership and the record-breaking SBL sales that helped make possible the financing of Levi’s Stadium.

In addition, the LA-Orange County-Inland Empire area is the second-largest media market in the country, and as a result, revenues from the sale of naming rights, advertising, and sponsorships will be significantly larger than they would be in San Diego. Taken together, simple economic realities make a financing reliant solely on stadium-generated revenues possible in a large market such as Los Angeles.

It’s all about PSLs/SBLs and their ability to raise hundreds of millions of private dollars for building a stadium. The Chargers and Goldman Sachs don’t think the San Diego market can generate enough PSLs to build a stadium privately.

National University System Institute for Policy Research President Eric Bruvold is preparing a study that concludes San Diego County would have to cover up to 65 percent of the cost of a new stadium. Bruvold said San Diego might buy $50 million to $100 million in PSLs, but not a large proportion of the overall package. That would mean much less private financing for lenders to the project.

That’s where the shadow of a potential conflict arises.

Goldman Sachs would substantially benefit from a privately built stadium in Carson. Their paid advocacy for the St. Louis Stadium Authority also compels them to strive for a solution that keeps the Rams in Missouri, which would bring an ancillary benefit of keeping the L.A. market open for the Carson stadium.

If the Chargers end up with a San Diego stadium solution, Goldman Sachs will have done their duty to their client, in that they would have helped them reach a satisfactory outcome. But will Goldman act as an honest broker if they are involved in negotiations to build a stadium in San Diego? It would go against their own financial interests in Los Angeles and St. Louis. They stand to gain much less if a stadium is built here.

I asked representatives of the Chargers, the mayor and the mayor’s task force to comment on Goldman’s possible involvement in the stadium process in San Diego.

Citizens Stadium Advisory Group spokesman Anthony Manolatos said the group hasn’t had any contact with Goldman Sachs. He didn’t dismiss the idea of the group meeting with Goldman at some point, though.

“Possibly, but probably not. The focus of the advisory group is on determining what site is best, then developing a financing plan for public consideration. It’s not all that interested in what’s going on Carson,” Manolatos said.

“It would appear to me that Goldman Sachs would be conflicted. I expect if it got that far, negotiations would have to be with another investment bank,” Manolatos said. “It appears there would be a conflict.”

Craig Gustafson, the mayor’s spokesman, said he needed to look into the issue and get back to me. I’ll update this post if I hear back.

I emailed several questions to Chargers special counsel Mark Fabiani. At first, he offered just a boilerplate response: “Goldman Sachs has been the team’s longtime investment banker, something that we have been very public about over the years. A Goldman representative even spoke at the Carson2gether press conference on February 20. So our relationship with the firm is hardly news.”

When I pressed him on the questions I’d asked, he wrote: “With regard to the City of San Diego, we of course have not yet seen any specific ideas from the Mayor or the task force, but we will certainly be prepared to have the appropriate experts from our side evaluate whatever might be proposed in the future.” He added: “To date Goldman has not met with the Mayor or any task force members.”

So, would “appropriate experts from our side” mean Goldman could advise the Chargers on a future San Diego stadium proposal?

“I can’t answer that hypothetical question since we have no idea what specific issues will be raised by the task force or the mayor. We would always try to bring the best expertise to bear on a particular issue, after evaluating what’s needed, checking for client conflicts, and so on,” Fabiani said.

Oh, and the NFL’s “point man on the L.A. market“? That’d be NFL Senior Vice President Eric Grubman — a former Goldman banker.

Goldman Sachs representatives declined to comment for this story.

It isn’t ethically or legally wrong for Goldman Sachs to be the Chargers’ financial partner and stadium adviser. If, however, San Diego officials end up in stadium negotiations with Dean Spanos and his investment banker, they may wonder whether the Carson stadium is too lucrative for Goldman to let fail.

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Written by Beau Lynott
Beau Lynott is a contributor to Voice of San Diego. Follow him on Twitter @lemonverbena_ or emaillemonverbenaaa@gmail.com.
 

blue4

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It was pretty obvious how the public in Inglewood would have voted by the ease of collecting more than twice the required signatures in support of the project. So the representatives elected by the citizens to make decisions affecting the city voted unanimously to sign off on the project that requires no monetary outlay by the taxpayers. And yes they also had an open public meeting to discuss it.

There is not such an obvious support by the voters of the entire state of Missouri for a stadium in one of its cities and the idea that the Governor can make that unilateral decision without going to either the assembly or the voters is being challenged. The two are not even close to the same thing.

If the Governor is successful in fighting off this challenge and is able to secure funding then I would assume he is doing it legally. And in reality, that is probably the way he should go if he can do it, as it would mean far less delays. But his being able to do that is anything but guaranteed at this point. That the elected officials and the mayor of Inglewood have voted to pass the stadium initiative is guaranteed as it is already a done deal. It can go forward without a further vote and is not contingent on public funding in order to build it.

BTW - I don't remember Den saying what the Governor is trying to do is wrong. Maybe I missed it.

Just two things. Obvious support isn't a vote. And I don't think anyone has done any kind of polling, reliable polling anyway, to accurately gauge state support in Missouri. This isn't to disagree with you. Just to point out that in my opinion a person can't criticize or praise one without doing the same for the other. Not that you are. For the record, I think both Inglewood and Nixon are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, in this case speed is essential. Speaking in Missouri's case, there just isn't time to hard sell every anti tax anti government anti city rural republican into voting for something other than farm stuff. If LA wasn't involved, sure put it on a ballot even if we think the Governor has the authority. I'm sure Inglewood feels the same type of pressure to get started.
 
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