My Defensive Philosophy: Dominant Units

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

sjm1582002

Wanted everywhere but welcome nowhere
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
964
Give me that "fearsome" dline that can get after the opposing qb.

Denver used one last year to send Brady, then Newton, home as losers.

Those Giant dlines were the main reason they were able to twice upset a heavily favored Patsie team in Super Bowls.

Behind a franchise QB....and the ability to protect him.....the capability of battering and rattling the opposing QB is the most necessary in today's game.

I was not pleased when there was no attempt to resign CLong as we could have really used a fresh thoroughbred who can get after the QB (especially late in the Detroit and Miami losses) as our pass rush seemingly runs out of gas when it is needed most.

26 sacks this year.

Even with the recent blowouts, that number is disappointing (like the rest of the 2016 Rams team).
 

WvuIN02

Starter
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
864
The best teams take the best player available who fits what they are trying to do and they will find ways to make plays. Sure, you can not throw a certain players way or double someone, but that just frees up someone else to make a play. If that ends up where you're loaded on one unit, so be it, but the good drafting teams dont reach for players just to fit a certain unit.

Take the 2008 Steelers defense that led the league in points and yards. It had 1 truly elite player at each level and solid contributors everywhere else. Aaron Smith at DE, James Harrison at LB, and Troy Polamalu at safety. Teams double teamed Harrison all the time, he still ended up with 16 sacks that year which freed up Lamar Woodley to get 11.5.
 

StealYoGurley

Pro Bowler
Joined
Jan 13, 2016
Messages
1,131
Seattle chose secondary. They built a quality pass rush and LB corp, but neither are great units. Denver was able to choose both pass rush and secondary. Most teams aren't that fortunate. But you see that Denver sold out for their secondary in FA. They knew they wanted a dominant unit.
.

Lets look at the key players at the 3 different levels in the Top defenses DVOA according to football outsiders

1. Broncos-
  • DL- Derek Wolfe (2nd), Sylvester Williams (1st)
  • LB Von Miller(high first rounder), Demarcus Ware (FA), Shane Ray (1st), LB- Brandon Marshall (5th rounder cut and picked up)
  • DB-Aqib Talib (big FA signing), TJ Ward (big FA), Chris Harris (UDFA), Darian Stewart (Cheap FA), Bradley Robey (1st round)
2. Ravens-
  • DL- Timmy Jernigan (2nd), Brandon Williams (3rd)
  • LB- Suggs (high first), Mosley (first), Dumervil (mid FA), Zach Orr (UDFA)
  • DB- Jimmy Smith (1st), Weddle (big fA), Webb (high paid converted corner), Tavon Young (4th)
3. Giants-
  • DL-JPP (first), Snacks ( big FA), Vernon (big FA), Hankins (2nd)
  • LB- No one of substance
  • DB- Jenks (big FA), DRC (Big FA), Eli Apple (1st), Landon Collins (2nd)
4. Seahawks-
  • DL- Bennett (mid FA), Avril (mid FA), Frank Clark (2nd)
  • LB- Wagner (2nd), Wright (4th)
  • DB- Thomas (1st), Chancellor (5th round), Sherman (5th round), Shead (UDFA)
5. Cardinals-
  • DL- Calais Campbell (2nd), Nkemdiche supposedly (1st round)
  • LB- Chandler Jones (1st rounder through trade), Bucannon (1st round), Minter (2nd), Golden (2nd)
  • DB- Peterson (1st round), Mathieu (3rd round), Jefferson (UDFA)
6. Eagles-
  • DL- Fletcher Cox (1st), Brandon Grahm (1st round), Bennie Logan (3rd Round), Barwin (mid FA), Curry (2nd Round)
  • LB- Hicks (3rd), Kendricks (2nd), Bradham (FA)
  • DB- Mcleod (big FA), Jenkins (Big FA)
7. Chargers-
  • DL- Bosa (high first), Liuget (first), Mebane (mid FA)
  • LB- Ingram (first),
  • DB- Brandon Flowers (big FA), Casey Heyward (mid FA), Verrett (1st)
8. Minnesota-
  • DL- Robinson (4th), Linval Joseph (big FA), Floyd (1st), Griffen (4th)
  • LB- Kendricks (2nd), Barr (high 1st), Greenway (1st)
  • DB- Smith (1st), Rhodes (1st), Newman (mid FA), Waynes (1st)

My point is all the top defenses make significant investments on all levels of the defense. Every top 8 defense has an elite player at each level of the defense. Even guys on defenses that were drafted later were eventually paid pig time.
 

A55VA6

Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
8,208
This is a philosophy some might have seen in my mocks, but I think dominant units are more important than having great players scattered around the defense. The Rams had a chance at a dominant secondary but letting Janoris Jenkins walk through a wrench into that plan. As we saw this year, we're stuck with a good pass rush and a good secondary. Both have weak links. That's a huge problem because offenses can scheme to attack our weak links. Tru is a very good CB, but they can just throw at Troy Hill or Mike Jordan or E.J. Gaines (I really hope Gaines improves next year). Donald is a dominant DT, but they can just double him.

Here's my point. I think we need to prioritize a unit this off-season. We need to make a decision, do we want a dominant pass rush or a dominant secondary? I'd love to have both, but that likely won't happen. If we want a dominant pass rush, we need to let Tru walk and invest money in a premier pass rusher like JPP or Chandler Jones. We can then replace Tru with a cheaper alternative and add draft picks to compete in the secondary. Our secondary will likely take a step back, but the dominant pass rush will cover for that. If we want a dominant secondary, we need to retain Tru and go hard after a top FA CB like Stephon Gilmore and then add a talented CB or two in the draft to compete with Gaines for the slot position and add depth.(I think we should move Joyner to FS no matter what)

Basically, we need to make a choice this off-season on what unit we want to be dominant. You can't scheme around a dominant unit. You can't scheme around a DL of Quinn, Donald, Brockers, JPP, Hayes, and Easley. Alternatively, you can't scheme around a secondary of Tru, Gilmore, a talented rookie, Gaines, Joyner, and Alexander. No matter what, you have to confront our strength.

Basically, we can't keep spreading our resources around the defense in hopes of making a very good all-around defense. We need to choose a strength and run with it. Our next defensive coordinator will have to make that choice. Personally, I'd choose the pass rush.
Absolutely! Great post.

I feel we really need to focus on our secondary. If Tru hits FA and gets paid by someone else, we're in some trouble. Gaines has looked like a 6th rounder, and Hill and Jordan have looked like undrafted players still trying to find their way. Rams need to find a way to re-sign Tru, and/or add a guy like Gilmore, and draft a talented player with our 2nd rounder, or 3rd rounder (hoping we get a compensatory 3rd for Jenkins) to stock up this CB position. And leave Joyner at Nickel or move him to FS.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,941
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Lets look at the key players at the 3 different levels in the Top defenses DVOA according to football outsiders

1. Broncos-
  • DL- Derek Wolfe (2nd), Sylvester Williams (1st)
  • LB Von Miller(high first rounder), Demarcus Ware (FA), Shane Ray (1st), LB- Brandon Marshall (5th rounder cut and picked up)
  • DB-Aqib Talib (big FA signing), TJ Ward (big FA), Chris Harris (UDFA), Darian Stewart (Cheap FA), Bradley Robey (1st round)
2. Ravens-
  • DL- Timmy Jernigan (2nd), Brandon Williams (3rd)
  • LB- Suggs (high first), Mosley (first), Dumervil (mid FA), Zach Orr (UDFA)
  • DB- Jimmy Smith (1st), Weddle (big fA), Webb (high paid converted corner), Tavon Young (4th)
3. Giants-
  • DL-JPP (first), Snacks ( big FA), Vernon (big FA), Hankins (2nd)
  • LB- No one of substance
  • DB- Jenks (big FA), DRC (Big FA), Eli Apple (1st), Landon Collins (2nd)
4. Seahawks-
  • DL- Bennett (mid FA), Avril (mid FA), Frank Clark (2nd)
  • LB- Wagner (2nd), Wright (4th)
  • DB- Thomas (1st), Chancellor (5th round), Sherman (5th round), Shead (UDFA)
5. Cardinals-
  • DL- Calais Campbell (2nd), Nkemdiche supposedly (1st round)
  • LB- Chandler Jones (1st rounder through trade), Bucannon (1st round), Minter (2nd), Golden (2nd)
  • DB- Peterson (1st round), Mathieu (3rd round), Jefferson (UDFA)
6. Eagles-
  • DL- Fletcher Cox (1st), Brandon Grahm (1st round), Bennie Logan (3rd Round), Barwin (mid FA), Curry (2nd Round)
  • LB- Hicks (3rd), Kendricks (2nd), Bradham (FA)
  • DB- Mcleod (big FA), Jenkins (Big FA)
7. Chargers-
  • DL- Bosa (high first), Liuget (first), Mebane (mid FA)
  • LB- Ingram (first),
  • DB- Brandon Flowers (big FA), Casey Heyward (mid FA), Verrett (1st)
8. Minnesota-
  • DL- Robinson (4th), Linval Joseph (big FA), Floyd (1st), Griffen (4th)
  • LB- Kendricks (2nd), Barr (high 1st), Greenway (1st)
  • DB- Smith (1st), Rhodes (1st), Newman (mid FA), Waynes (1st)

My point is all the top defenses make significant investments on all levels of the defense. Every top 8 defense has an elite player at each level of the defense. Even guys on defenses that were drafted later were eventually paid pig time.

My point is that those teams all identified spots to attack with a certain vigor. You're missing the point. We already have good players at every level. We need to pick a unit to make dominant. If we make the DL dominant, we'll still have Ogletree, Barron, Joyner, Alexander, and more. If we make the secondary dominant, we'll still have Donald, Quinn, Brockers, Ogletree, Barron, and more. We just have to make a choice and stop spreading ourselves thin.

Chargers: DL/Pass Rush
Minnesota: DL/Pass Rush
Eagles: DL/Pass Rush
Arizona: Secondary (although, they made similar mistakes to us)
Seahawks: Secondary
Giants: Secondary
Ravens: DL/Pass Rush
Broncos: Secondary

That doesn't mean you put crap on the rest of your defense. It means that you build a dominant unit so the other two units can be merely solid or good. If you don't have a dominant unit, every unit on your defense has to be good to great. It's harder to do. It spreads your resources thin. And it makes it easier to attack your defense, especially if there are injuries.
 

OnceARam

Hall of Fame
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Messages
3,470
We definitely need pass rush help. That's makes the secondary better regardless.

But what we need more than anything is an OL and a downfield, attacking offense.

We're still a few years off of being dominant anywhere. Goff needs time to develop. And we still don't seem to have identified WR's that can catch a damn ball.

This off-season will be interesting...
 

WvuIN02

Starter
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
864
Best player available at the slot. The draft dictates things and if you plan on picking the best DL, and all of the good ones get taken while the best linebacker in the draft is sitting there you take him.

Now if we are talking free agency, that's a different ball of wax. And you can mold the team to your liking depending on who you decide to allocate your cap space to also. But if we are talking draft, bpa all the way unless its absolutely studs at a position you have 1 of like a QB or running back where you cant play both.
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Messages
35,576
Name
The Dude
Basically, we can't keep spreading our resources around the defense in hopes of making a very good all-around defense. We need to choose a strength and run with it. Our next defensive coordinator will have to make that choice. Personally, I'd choose the pass rush.
That was the goal with both Spagnuolo and Fisher. Build a dominant pass-rush and fill in the rest with solid players. It's the Buddy Ryan approach, and it's a very good philosophy if you can draft well on day 2 & beyond (which we did with Jenkins, Johnson & Gaines). Unfortunately, as we're seeing play out, if you draft well you have the problem of those same players becoming sought after free agents. But that doesn't mean you abandon your philosophy so you can keep those guys. You just have to keep hitting on those later picks and keep coaching them up. I'd stay the course. Because if you can generate a consistent pass rush with 4 players, then everything else is gravy.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,941
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
That was the goal with both Spagnuolo and Fisher. Build a dominant pass-rush and fill in the rest with solid players. It's the Buddy Ryan approach, and it's a very good philosophy if you can draft well on day 2 & beyond (which we did with Jenkins, Johnson & Gaines). Unfortunately, as we're seeing play out, if you draft well you have the problem of those same players becoming sought after free agents. But that doesn't mean you abandon your philosophy so you can keep those guys. You just have to keep hitting on those later picks and keep coaching them up. I'd stay the course. Because if you can generate a consistent pass rush with 4 players, then everything else is gravy.

I agree. Build up a dominant DL. Everything else will fall into place.
 

StealYoGurley

Pro Bowler
Joined
Jan 13, 2016
Messages
1,131
That doesn't mean you put crap on the rest of your defense. It means that you build a dominant unit so the other two units can be merely solid or good. If you don't have a dominant unit, every unit on your defense has to be good to great. It's harder to do. It spreads your resources thin. And it makes it easier to attack your defense, especially if there are injuries.

Good defenses are good to great everywhere. All those teams are spreading resources. On most of those teams you can argue about what unit is their dominant unit. IMO the best defenses have dominant pass rushers and excellent secondary play

Chargers- You say the chargers have focused on building a domniant DL/ pass rush (3 first round picks), but they spend alot on their secondary as well with a first round pick and 2 big FAs.

Vikings- You say Minnesota focused on their d-line. Their d-line consists of DEs who were mid round picks and earned big contracts, a first rounder, and a big FA. They spent two 1st and a 2nd on their LB crew and three 1st rounders on their secondary. They have invested the least draft capital on what you call their dominant unit.

Eagles- have invested a ton in their d-line probably your strongest argument, but they also have the most expensive safety duo in the league.

Arizona- They pay matthieu and peterson alot after investing first and third round picks, but Tony jefferson is a UDFA and they acquired their other corner through trade for a later pick. Conversely they invested 2 1sts on their d-line and a 1st and three 2nds (including chandler jones trade) on their d-line.

Broncos- Dont even have to say anything here they invested as heavily in the DL/pass rush Wolfe, Miller, Demarcus Ware, Shane Ray, Sylvester Williams

Giants- Yes they have JJ and DRC and high picks in Collins and Apple, but Only 3 teams spend more the d-line one being the rams

Ravens- Suggs and dumervil both middle of the pack for pass rushers salaries, whereas Baltimore has the 5th most expensive secondary in the league.

so on and so forth
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,941
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #31
Good defenses are good to great everywhere. All those teams are spreading resources. On most of those teams you can argue about what unit is their dominant unit. IMO the best defenses have dominant pass rushers and excellent secondary play

No. Great defenses appear to be good to great everywhere. Take Carolina. In the past, their secondary has looked damn good. That also happened to be when they had a dominant front-7. This year, the front-7 took a step back and the secondary has looked like crap. Now, losing Josh Norman hurt but not nearly as much as the regression along their DL.

Seattle's DL only appears to be good because how talented the secondary is. Bennett is a very good player. The rest of the DL aren't noteworthy. Avril is a very good role player, that's about it.

Chargers- You say the chargers have focused on building a domniant DL/ pass rush (3 first round picks), but they spend alot on their secondary as well with a first round pick and 2 big FAs.

I get that, but their secondary is beat to hell right now. Verrett is their #1 CB. He was lost for the year early in the season. Flowers has not played well this year. They've gotten good play out of Casey Hayward, who wasn't considered more than a solid player this past off-season.

Meanwhile, their pass rush has been one of the best in the NFL at pressuring QBs. However, their defense hasn't been good this year. So I'm not sure why they're on the list.

Vikings- You say Minnesota focused on their d-line. Their d-line consists of DEs who were mid round picks and earned big contracts, a first rounder, and a big FA. They spent two 1st and a 2nd on their LB crew and three 1st rounders on their secondary. They have invested the least draft capital on what you call their dominant unit.

It doesn't much matter what you "spend." The results are what matters. Danielle Hunter and Everson Griffen play like first round picks. Robison is a good pass rusher still. Linval Joseph is a force inside. Sharrif Floyd is a quality DT when he's on the field. And they have depth behind those guys. Plus, Anthony Barr is a stellar pass rusher.

Their LB corp is good but not great. Their secondary has a mix of good pieces and bad pieces. What makes that defense so lethal is the dominating DL.

Eagles- have invested a ton in their d-line probably your strongest argument, but they also have the most expensive safety duo in the league.

But they have shitty CBs. I've said it over and over again. We don't need to gut 66% of our defense. What we need to do is focus on a unit if we want it to become great. That means either stacking our secondary or defensive line this off-season.

Arizona- They pay matthieu and peterson alot after investing first and third round picks, but Tony jefferson is a UDFA and they acquired their other corner through trade for a later pick. Conversely they invested 2 1sts on their d-line and a 1st and three 2nds (including chandler jones trade) on their d-line.

Tony Jefferson is a very underrated player. But the Cardinals defense has fallen off this year because they let the secondary become a much weaker unit. They replaced Jerraud Powers with a liability at #2 CB and Tyrann Mathieu got injured.

Broncos- Dont even have to say anything here they invested as heavily in the DL/pass rush Wolfe, Miller, Demarcus Ware, Shane Ray, Sylvester Williams

The Broncos defense chose their secondary when they made the jump. They shelled out a ton of money to Aqib Talib, T.J. Ward, and spent a first on Bradley Roby. It helped that they already had some very talented players on the DL (Von Miller, Derek Wolfe, and Malik Jackson). But they made their choice.

Giants- Yes they have JJ and DRC and high picks in Collins and Apple, but Only 3 teams spend more the d-line one being the rams

Giants were smart. They added a great pass rusher in Vernon. But that was more to plan for the departure of JPP imo. They have thrown a ton of resources into creating a dominant secondary. It's panned out for them.

Ravens- Suggs and dumervil both middle of the pack for pass rushers salaries, whereas Baltimore has the 5th most expensive secondary in the league.

so on and so forth

Ravens are a bit of an odd team. They really don't have great personnel for stopping the pass. Suggs and Dumervil can get after the passer. And they have a DL that specializes at pushing the pocket. But their secondary is pretty weak outside of Weddle and Smith (on Smith's good days).

What makes the Ravens defense so good is that their front is absolutely dominant against the run. Thus, that allows them to sit back and play it safe against the pass to compensate for their relatively weak secondary.

Like I said, we need to make a decision. Do we want a top tier secondary or a top tier DL? Personally, I'd go DL. Why? This looks like it's going to be an amazing CB draft.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,941
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
Here are examples of what I am talking about so that it makes it clear we're not gutting our defense to do it:
Option #1 - DL
LDE: Jason Pierre-Paul (FA)
NT: Michael Brockers
UT: Aaron Donald
RDE: Robert Quinn
3rd DE: Will Hayes
3rd DT: Dominique Easley
WLB: Mark Barron
MLB: Alec Ogletree
LCB: Brandon Carr (FA)
RCB: Gareon Conley (draft)
SLCB: Jerraud Powers (FA)
FS: LaMarcus Joyner
SS: Mo Alexander

Option #2 - Secondary
LDE: Will Hayes
NT: Michael Brockers
UT: Aaron Donald
RDE: Robert Quinn
3rd DE: Alex Okafor (FA)
3rd DT: Dominique Easley
WLB: Mark Barron
MLB: Alec Ogletree
LCB: Trumaine Johnson
RCB: Prince Amukamara (FA)
SLCB: Jourdan Lewis (draft)
FS: LaMarcus Joyner
SS: Mo Alexander

Not saying either of these two situations are likely. Just pointing out that it's what I mean. Defense doesn't look all that different except for one FA choice. Do we want to use it to strength the secondary or the pass rush?
 

PressureD41

Les Snead's Draft Advisor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
3,813
Name
Eddy
@jrry32 would you make a bold move and cut Quinn and sign a better producing DE.. I don't know the cap angle here, just thinking out loud
 

PressureD41

Les Snead's Draft Advisor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
3,813
Name
Eddy
Here are examples of what I am talking about so that it makes it clear we're not gutting our defense to do it:
Option #1 - DL
LDE: Jason Pierre-Paul (FA)
NT: Michael Brockers
UT: Aaron Donald
RDE: Robert Quinn
3rd DE: Will Hayes
3rd DT: Dominique Easley
WLB: Mark Barron
MLB: Alec Ogletree
LCB: Brandon Carr (FA)
RCB: Gareon Conley (draft)
SLCB: Jerraud Powers (FA)
FS: LaMarcus Joyner
SS: Mo Alexander

Option #2 - Secondary
LDE: Will Hayes
NT: Michael Brockers
UT: Aaron Donald
RDE: Robert Quinn
3rd DE: Alex Okafor (FA)
3rd DT: Dominique Easley
WLB: Mark Barron
MLB: Alec Ogletree
LCB: Trumaine Johnson
RCB: Prince Amukamara (FA) Q: Isn't he like an average CB? just asking
SLCB: Jourdan Lewis (draft)
FS: LaMarcus Joyner
SS: Mo Alexander

Not saying either of these two situations are likely. Just pointing out that it's what I mean. Defense doesn't look all that different except for one FA choice. Do we want to use it to strength the secondary or the pass rush?
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,941
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #36
@jrry32 would you make a bold move and cut Quinn and sign a better producing DE.. I don't know the cap angle here, just thinking out loud

I wouldn't. We have Quinn on a team-friendly deal over the next 3 years. I'd hope he can regain his health. Only thing that would make me consider moving Quinn this off-season would be someone offering a first round pick for him.(before FA)
 

PressureD41

Les Snead's Draft Advisor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
3,813
Name
Eddy
So you would prefer to replace Haynes in the starting line up w/ JPP or other FA DE. Makes a lot of sense there.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,941
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #38
So you would prefer to replace Haynes in the starting line up w/ JPP or other FA DE. Makes a lot of sense there.

Yep. Bump Hayes back to the 3rd DE. He'll only be here one more year anyways.