MOAB

[bnw]

Is it true American troops were guarding poppy fields in Afghan? Just sayin.

View: https://youtu.be/qME6Ta9InY4

 

[Riverumbbq]

Well the thread was interesting while it lasted.

While i'm always happy for a civil debate, I felt our disagreements lead to little more to be said without creating a problem for the mods. We disagree, ... that's what makes the world go 'round, so rather than continue I thought it might be better to disengage from this particular conversation. Look, when we can't even agree on who truly ruled Afghanistan at the time of 9-11, the rest of the story may get too complicated to unravel. And for those unwilling to see Afghanistan & Iraq as two separate issues, it kind of becomes pointless to forge ahead. I guess i'm just not that patient.
For what it's worth, might I suggest for those who wish to believe the Taliban have popular support among the majority of Afghans, look into the polling of Afghan citizens over the last 10-15 years.
I understand how easy it is to become war weary, especially following our invasion of Iraq and how it sapped support and resources from Afghanistan. I won't be surprised at anything that transpires in this region, although i'd rather not spend American lives and treasure on Afghanis seeking a better, freer & more democratic life, then abandoning them to slaughter because we couldn't see through on our promises. jmo.

 

[LesBaker]

View: https://youtu.be/qME6Ta9InY4

srsly????

Hard to take that as anything like the truth. It was awful.

 

[Riverumbbq]

View: https://youtu.be/qME6Ta9InY4

Decriminalize it and it's no longer an issue. Cartels & Mafias control most illicit activities, once you legalize or decriminalize, you take the money away from the bad guys and regulate & tax the 'good' guys. It's simple unless you need someone to hold your hand and control how adults should run their own life.

 

[bnw]

srsly????

Hard to take that as anything like the truth. It was awful.

Yes, seriously. It isn't a secret. Heroin price dropping by 90% in the US isn't a coincidence either. Search another video if you like. I merely posted what came up with a hottie.

 

[bnw]

Decriminalize it and it's no longer an issue. Cartels & Mafias control most illicit activities, once you legalize or decriminalize, you take the money away from the bad guys and regulate & tax the 'good' guys. It's simple unless you need someone to hold your hand and control how adults should run their own life.

Or you want to keep a monopoly and eliminate your competition by using the "law" against them.

 

[fearsomefour]

Yes, seriously. It isn't a secret. Heroin price dropping by 90% in the US isn't a coincidence either. Search another video if you like. I merely posted what came up with a hottie.

The pills man.....the pills are poisen, lead to heroin addiction and are handed out like candy.
A couple of Oxys and a glass or two of scotch will take the edge off.

 

[fearsomefour]

As a general note the conversation here tends to be intelligent and respectful, even I people disagree.
It is nice and not the norm either on line or off with the current climate. I for one appreciate it and think it's great.

 

[jrry32]

Nothing like another war distraction to bury the truth that Obama got the UK to spy on president elect Trump. Not a peep since.

That's because it didn't happen. As Donald Trump would say, "Fake news."

 

[Riverumbbq]

Or you want to keep a monopoly and eliminate your competition by using the "law" against them.

Quite the opposite. If people can legally grow their own or purchase legally from a neighborhood pharmacy, monopoly can only exist where government permits it. Like marijuana today in many states, regulated competition among growers should provide several local sources for supply, ... Afghanistan as chief provider would likely become a thing of the past. Why would a legitimate dealer risk arrest by importing garbage Mexican marijuana when locally grown is higher quality and legal ? Same rule apply to Opium and every other drug. If you really want to put Afghan poppy fields out of business, legalize it.

 

[jrry32]

Quite the opposite. If people can legally grow their own or purchase legally from a neighborhood pharmacy, monopoly can only exist where government permits it. Like marijuana today in many states, regulated competition among growers should provide several local sources for supply, ... Afghanistan as chief provider would likely become a thing of the past. Why would a legitimate dealer risk arrest by importing garbage Mexican marijuana when locally grown is higher quality and legal ? Same rule apply to Opium and every other drug. If you really want to put Afghan poppy fields out of business, legalize it.

He's agreeing with you. He was responding to the hand-holding comment. He's saying that with the law as it is now, the criminals can monopolize (or oligopolize) the illegal drug trade.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Is it true American troops were guarding poppy fields in Afghan? Just sayin.

No.

While i'm always happy for a civil debate, I felt our disagreements lead to little more to be said without creating a problem for the mods. We disagree, ... that's what makes the world go 'round, so rather than continue I thought it might be better to disengage from this particular conversation. Look, when we can't even agree on who truly ruled Afghanistan at the time of 9-11, the rest of the story may get too complicated to unravel. And for those unwilling to see Afghanistan & Iraq as two separate issues, it kind of becomes pointless to forge ahead. I guess i'm just not that patient.
For what it's worth, might I suggest for those who wish to believe the Taliban have popular support among the majority of Afghans, look into the polling of Afghan citizens over the last 10-15 years.
I understand how easy it is to become war weary, especially following our invasion of Iraq and how it sapped support and resources from Afghanistan. I won't be surprised at anything that transpires in this region, although i'd rather not spend American lives and treasure on Afghanis seeking a better, freer & more democratic life, then abandoning them to slaughter because we couldn't see through on our promises. jmo.

Uh, I see Afghanistan and Iraq as two separate issues. I also know the general pulse of both countries because I spent time there running around Mosul, Kunar (specifically the Korengal Valley) and Nangarhar (where they just dropped the MOAB and where they launched the raid against Bin Laden) shooting bad guys and talking to the local population about their needs and wants, about how life was before compared to now. It was an important part of gaining local trust and thus being able to use them for reliable information. We'd sit down in a small hot room and drink extremely sugary tea while they told us all their bitches and complaints. We had to use the local population to track down training camps and local insurgency leaders so we could then assault those compounds. When I say these people don't care about our ideals of democracy or our way of life I say that because I have literally talked to them and have literally heard them say they don't care about what's happening elsewhere, they just want their tribe/village left alone. The only reason why they would work with anyone would be to benefit/protect themselves. We would give them supplies (benefit) for information, the Taliban wouldn't kill them (protect) if they gave them information. That's all they cared about.

 

[fearsomefour]

No.

Good.

I agree with your insight as to why democracy won't take in those places. It is a fools errand.

 

[Prime Time]

Well the thread was interesting while it lasted.

The key is to keep politicians names out of it. Once that happens it leads to...well you all know.

 

[Riverumbbq]

No.



Uh, I see Afghanistan and Iraq as two separate issues. I also know the general pulse of both countries because I spent time there running around Mosul, Kunar (specifically the Korengal Valley) and Nangarhar (where they just dropped the MOAB and where they launched the raid against Bin Laden) shooting bad guys and talking to the local population about their needs and wants, about how life was before compared to now. It was an important part of gaining local trust and thus being able to use them for reliable information. We'd sit down in a small hot room and drink extremely sugary tea while they told us all their bitches and complaints. We had to use the local population to track down training camps and local insurgency leaders so we could then assault those compounds. When I say these people don't care about our ideals of democracy or our way of life I say that because I have literally talked to them and have literally heard them say they don't care about what's happening elsewhere, they just want their tribe/village left alone. The only reason why they would work with anyone would be to benefit/protect themselves. We would give them supplies (benefit) for information, the Taliban wouldn't kill them (protect) if they gave them information. That's all they cared about.

I'm sure your experience with village elders in rural areas of Afghanistan was rewarding in gaining insight, but how many young women who were receiving their first opportunity to receive an education were you able to engage with ? How many were first time voters who appreciated an opportunity to have a say in their future ? Throughout the past 15 years polls have shown between a 60% & 80% approval rating for having American soldiers in Afghanistan, these are polls of Afghans, not Americans. Today those approval ratings are closer to the top. Now, whether these polls indicate a love for Americans or a love for security, i'm sure we can guess as to the correct answer, but be it as it may, they prefer American security far more than harsh Taliban rule. We've seen this attitude repeat itself in many cities and in multiple countries where Taliban/Al Queada have had control.

I'm having trouble even calling what is going on today in Afghanistan as still a war on our part. It seems contrived by the media at this point in time, wishing to prolong our 'longest war in history' rhetoric, but we have drawn down our fighting capacity by almost 90%, and few if any are front line soldiers. Most of what we do now is related to training & support from what is reported. No doubt the government of Afghanistan is still fighting an on-going insurgency, but i'm not sure you can even characterize that as civil war any longer when so many of the opposition are foreign jihadists.

It's easy to say these people have little desire for democracy when speaking to elders who are accustomed to being the last & final word, but many of those villages which have security are now practicing democracy and have been for several years. We've watched them show up to vote, often in greater numbers than Americans here at home. American troops don't force Afghani's to vote at the end of a bayonet, they do it because they are trying to make a difference. Like a majority of people, preferring to be left peacefully on their own would most always be preferable than having outsiders dictate a new lifestyle, i'm pretty sure they are no different to anyone in that respect. When you talk about our 'ideals' not being of interest, perhaps you should be more specific, as they have shown interest in receiving an education, building infrastructure relative to water supply & sewage treatment, availability of electricity, improving roads and access to jobs. When you measure hunger or security issues against democracy, it doesn't mean freedom/liberty is off the wish list, but it may mean that survival comes before the other options reach the same degree of importance. Others have mentioned our reaching for ethnocentrism, but providing an education so people can better care for themselves is not that. We aren't subverting culture or religion by removing a Taliban/Al Queda jackboot from the neck of a more moderate society. We aren't building 'western' madrassas to 're-educate' or indoctrinate children, that's what the other guys do. Malala Yousafzai, the Pakistani girl shot by the Taliban for advocating education for girls, marked her 16th birthday with an impressive speech at the United Nations, where she said education could change the world, ... i'm hoping this girl is an example of the future of Afghanistan as well. jmo.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I'm sure your experience with village elders in rural areas of Afghanistan was rewarding in gaining insight, but how many young women who were receiving their first opportunity to receive an education were you able to engage with ? How many were first time voters who appreciated an opportunity to have a say in their future ? Throughout the past 15 years polls have shown between a 60% & 80% approval rating for having American soldiers in Afghanistan, these are polls of Afghans, not Americans. Today those approval ratings are closer to the top. Now, whether these polls indicate a love for Americans or a love for security, i'm sure we can guess as to the correct answer, but be it as it may, they prefer American security far more than harsh Taliban rule. We've seen this attitude repeat itself in many cities and in multiple countries where Taliban/Al Queada have had control.

I've seen plenty that loved that they could now vote, or loved that they could get an education. It was nice that they were happy, but of course they were happy, that's not the problem, the problem is if they're willing to fight and die for those opportunities... The general pulse is no. Afghani's like us for the most part, as we give them stuff and provide security so they don't have to. We're not a police force, or a security force, we can't stay there forever and be that force. We can't sit around for decades until the country can do it themselves, that's going to take too long, if it ever happens. It gets to the point we need to ask if the juice is worth the squeeze, and it's not.

I'm having trouble even calling what is going on today in Afghanistan as still a war on our part. It seems contrived by the media at this point in time, wishing to prolong our 'longest war in history' rhetoric, but we have drawn down our fighting capacity by almost 90%, and few if any are front line soldiers. Most of what we do now is related to training & support from what is reported. No doubt the government of Afghanistan is still fighting an on-going insurgency, but i'm not sure you can even characterize that as civil war any longer when so many of the opposition are foreign jihadists.

It's still a war, we just don't have a leading role in it anymore. Men are still fighting and dying, including Americans. The Taliban still control areas of Afghanistan and the government isn't strong enough to control it themselves. The country isn't stable, and there are a lot of locals fighting and infighting in the government.

It's easy to say these people have little desire for democracy when speaking to elders who are accustomed to being the last & final word, but many of those villages which have security are now practicing democracy and have been for several years. We've watched them show up to vote, often in greater numbers than Americans here at home. American troops don't force Afghani's to vote at the end of a bayonet, they do it because they are trying to make a difference. Like a majority of people, preferring to be left peacefully on their own would most always be preferable than having outsiders dictate a new lifestyle, i'm pretty sure they are no different to anyone in that respect. When you talk about our 'ideals' not being of interest, perhaps you should be more specific, as they have shown interest in receiving an education, building infrastructure relative to water supply & sewage treatment, availability of electricity, improving roads and access to jobs. When you measure hunger or security issues against democracy, it doesn't mean freedom/liberty is off the wish list, but it may mean that survival comes before the other options reach the same degree of importance. Others have mentioned our reaching for ethnocentrism, but providing an education so people can better care for themselves is not that. We aren't subverting culture or religion by removing a Taliban/Al Queda jackboot from the neck of a more moderate society. We aren't building 'western' madrassas to 're-educate' or indoctrinate children, that's what the other guys do. Malala Yousafzai, the Pakistani girl shot by the Taliban for advocating education for girls, marked her 16th birthday with an impressive speech at the United Nations, where she said education could change the world, ... i'm hoping this girl is an example of the future of Afghanistan as well. jmo.

It's not just the elders, there's little appetite from the entire population for the amount of work that is required to get the country to that point. Again, it's a country that has never had this, we're trying to change the way of life for millions of people to fit our western ideals, their culture, their ideals, it's all different.

Do they like all that stuff? Sure, we give it to them for free, they're going to vote and they're going to go to school and they're going to enjoy infrastructure upgrades because we give it to them, protect them, etc. Again, that's not the issue, it's if they're willing to fight and die themselves, without us helping them. Given how they act across the country there is nothing that I have seen that demonstrates they are. Sure some will be, and those are great stories, but not enough to make a difference.

I'm not sure why people have this obsession with making it work, making our military do things they aren't designed to do. We're literally setting our military up for failure by doing that. Our military is designed for one thing, killing and destroying things. That's what we do, someone tells us where the enemy is and we go and kill them. We're not police, we're not security, we're not construction workers, we're fighters. The only reason why anyone wants to go over there anymore is to get the ribbon, it's over.

 

[SteezyEndo]

I've seen plenty that loved that they could now vote, or loved that they could get an education. It was nice that they were happy, but of course they were happy, that's not the problem, the problem is if they're willing to fight and die for those opportunities... The general pulse is no. Afghani's like us for the most part, as we give them stuff and provide security so they don't have to. We're not a police force, or a security force, we can't stay there forever and be that force. We can't sit around for decades until the country can do it themselves, that's going to take too long, if it ever happens. It gets to the point we need to ask if the juice is worth the squeeze, and it's not.



It's still a war, we just don't have a leading role in it anymore. Men are still fighting and dying, including Americans. The Taliban still control areas of Afghanistan and the government isn't strong enough to control it themselves. The country isn't stable, and there are a lot of locals fighting and infighting in the government.



It's not just the elders, there's little appetite from the entire population for the amount of work that is required to get the country to that point. Again, it's a country that has never had this, we're trying to change the way of life for millions of people to fit our western ideals, their culture, their ideals, it's all different.

Do they like all that stuff? Sure, we give it to them for free, they're going to vote and they're going to go to school and they're going to enjoy infrastructure upgrades because we give it to them, protect them, etc. Again, that's not the issue, it's if they're willing to fight and die themselves, without us helping them. Given how they act across the country there is nothing that I have seen that demonstrates they are. Sure some will be, and those are great stories, but not enough to make a difference.

I'm not sure why people have this obsession with making it work, making our military do things they aren't designed to do. We're literally setting our military up for failure by doing that. Our military is designed for one thing, killing and destroying things. That's what we do, someone tells us where the enemy is and we go and kill them. We're not police, we're not security, we're not construction workers, we're fighters. The only reason why anyone wants to go over there anymore is to get the ribbon, it's over.

The hazard combat pay was a plus as well. Gave a people a reason to get the hell outta Garrison.

As far as trying to spread our ideals across boarders we have no business in is utterly pointless.

 

[bnw]

No.

Yes. It is the only reasonable explanation for the doubling of Afghanistan opium production under the US occupation compared to the Taliban before and the street price of heroin dropping 90% over the same time.

View: https://youtu.be/AUATfLDiwVA

 

[bluecoconuts]

The hazard combat pay was a plus as well. Gave a people a reason to get the hell outta Garrison.

As far as trying to spread our ideals across boarders we have no business in is utterly pointless.

Garrison sucks, no doubt. There are easier pumps to get extra pay though.

Yes. It is the only reasonable explanation for the doubling of Afghanistan opium production under the US occupation compared to the Taliban before and the street price of heroin dropping 90% over the same time.

View: https://youtu.be/AUATfLDiwVA

No it's not, the reason for the increased production was because we completely destroyed their economy when we invaded and started gobbling up supplies for ourselves, as well as to slow down supplies to the enemy. This resulted in many people losing their jobs and turning to farming opium as it was a quick way of making a buck. We also forced the production away from the more urban areas with larger populations into open areas away from population centers, where it's harder to crack down and stop. The Karzai government that we installed is also incredibly corrupt and many of the biggest drug lords have high positions in the government while ensures production is maintained. We've also pushed the Taliban into supporting it (they believed it was un-Islamic and banned it) as a way to fund their insurgency since we have destroyed other aspects of the economy.

This isn't the first time the United States has invaded a country, destroyed their economy and saw crime and drug production skyrocket. There was widespread looting after Iraq fall, Vietnam saw major increases in drug production (heroin as well, actually) as farmers and other local nationals were forced into looking for other means to make money.

I have literally stood by burning opium fields with DEA FAST teams while the farmers cursed us for destroying their livelihood. While we're to blame for the rise in opium it's not because we're protecting them, it's because we destroyed their economy and people adapted to get by.

 

[jrry32]

I've seen plenty that loved that they could now vote, or loved that they could get an education. It was nice that they were happy, but of course they were happy, that's not the problem, the problem is if they're willing to fight and die for those opportunities... The general pulse is no. Afghani's like us for the most part, as we give them stuff and provide security so they don't have to. We're not a police force, or a security force, we can't stay there forever and be that force. We can't sit around for decades until the country can do it themselves, that's going to take too long, if it ever happens. It gets to the point we need to ask if the juice is worth the squeeze, and it's not.

This is exactly the point I was attempting to make. You conveyed it a lot better than I did. I tend to be more laissez-faire in my beliefs towards sovereign states. My personal beliefs are that, except in rare cases, if a significant portion of the citizenry want something badly enough to fight and die for it, change will happen.

If change isn't happening, it's because there isn't strong enough support for it. Trying to force change isn't going to make a difference if you can't get the support. Otherwise, as soon as you leave, things are just going to go backwards. That puts us in the terrible position of either having to stay indefinitely to prevent our work from being undone or accepting that our work is going to be undone and getting out.

I have enjoyed reading your insights. I learned a lot from your firsthand experiences.