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RamFan503

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If it did you think that matter?

It would be an interesting defense - but I think it would be like a company getting into a contract, changing their corporate name, and then arguing that they aren't bound by the contract because of the name change.
Maybe. Or it says to the purchasers that they are buying rights to the St Louis Rams games and not the Los Angeles Rams games. Most of this is untested so there really isn't any kind of precedent. Just because the Rams played in Busch before moving into the Dome I think is extremely light on rationale. The fact that the task force was proposing PSLs as part of the financing package for the Riverfront stadium project may play a big part in how PSLs are viewed or should be viewed by purchasers. Still - this is the first time the issue has come up so I suppose we'll see.

It is pretty interesting to me that nobody has presented the actual wording of the PSL agreements in the Lou. I'd like to see how the seats are described, how the venue might be described, how the team is described, who actually sold the PSLs, etc.

Can anyone tell me if the PSLs were sold by the Rams themselves? I thought it was the CVC/RSA or someone affiliated with the city/county. My understanding was that they had to guarantee a certain number of PSLs sold and # of years of sell-outs as part of the agreement. Why this may be important is that it would seem that whoever sold the PSLs may end up being the ones liable for what they sold. If so, this could be a huge problem for the CVC, the Dome, and the city/county.

I just see so many ways out of it if you are the Rams. The lease may yet come back into the fold. The seating assignments could be an easy out if they completely recategorize the seats. The wording will play a big role in any lawsuit. I just don't see any logical interpretation of the PSLs determining that the holders have a right in LA considering what took place with the lease and the rest.
 

fearsomefour

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If you bought PSL's a few years ago, and plunked down say 6 grand or 15 grand based on Kroenke saying "I'm not leading the charge out of STL" and that people could trust him he's from MO and he only bought into the Rams because they were moving to STL I bet you'd want some of that back.
PSLs are a ripoff for sure.
The problem with this whole thing is trying to define WHY someone bought one. That really doesn't matter. If the Rams lived up to their requirement for that period time it is a dead issue to me.
Having a right to a seat forever....ok, what is the language of the agreement. If the Rams were dumb enough to leave themselves open there, go get them. I it's defined, again, nothing.
I can buy a Ferrarri with the believe and hope it will get me laid, unless the paperwork from the dealer ensures this....
 

LesBaker

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STLRAMZ who posts on the Herd (and I've met him) flew to every game and has been a season ticket holder for a long time.

He's a lawyer. He went back and forth with someone in ticketing, not a part time employee or whatever but someone higher up, about his PSL being valid if the Rams moved. He says he has the emails (and I believe him) and was told that his PSLs would be honored in a similar seat or something along those lines.

I would like to see the agreement too and I haven't seen in published anywhere. I've heard people say it was for 20 years, and I've heard for as long as they played in the dome, and I've heard 30 years.

Still that isn't MY point. I contend that if you made a purchase and the seller was leading you to believe by their words and deeds that your PSL's were going to be good for years and years and then you found out that was a lie because they were planning on leaving as they were telling you they weren't and they cashed your check then you have a case for fraud or something close to it.
 

bluecoconuts

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STLRAMZ who posts on the Herd (and I've met him) flew to every game and has been a season ticket holder for a long time.

He's a lawyer. He went back and forth with someone in ticketing, not a part time employee or whatever but someone higher up, about his PSL being valid if the Rams moved. He says he has the emails (and I believe him) and was told that his PSLs would be honored in a similar seat or something along those lines.

I would like to see the agreement too and I haven't seen in published anywhere. I've heard people say it was for 20 years, and I've heard for as long as they played in the dome, and I've heard 30 years.

Still that isn't MY point. I contend that if you made a purchase and the seller was leading you to believe by their words and deeds that your PSL's were going to be good for years and years and then you found out that was a lie because they were planning on leaving as they were telling you they weren't and they cashed your check then you have a case for fraud or something close to it.

So the PSLs would be honored in the new Riverfront stadium?

Most of the PSLs were sold when the Rams did think they were gonna stay for a long time too..
 

BriansRams

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If you bought PSL's a few years ago, and plunked down say 6 grand or 15 grand based on Kroenke saying "I'm not leading the charge out of STL" and that people could trust him he's from MO and he only bought into the Rams because they were moving to STL I bet you'd want some of that back.

Well, in your scenario above, did they already pre-pay for PSL's for the 2016 season?
If not, why would they be owed any money back?
 

OldSchool

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One thing that hasn't been pointed out and will easily quell this stupid argument is this: The riverfront stadium and it's financing package that was defended with such zeal, probably by the same people suing the Rams now, called for the sale of PSL's. How can somebody claim for their new shiny stadium Rams fans will have to buy PSL's and then turn around and say because they moved to a stadium other than the riverfront stadium the Rams cheated them and owe them money. I don't recall these fans threatening a lawsuit to Peacock, Nixon et all for their stadium plan forcing them to buy new PSL's. They knew with that stadium new PSL's would have to be purchased and have no grounds to sue the Rams. As has been stated before the PSL's had a finite amount of time before they had to be renewed and they were sold for Rams games in the Dome, not Rams games anywhere they played a home game. We played a home game in London did these same fans demand their tickets for their seats there?
 

RamFan503

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Looks like the PSLs do not carry over. Except for that one guy that got an email saying that his would. (that was smart) But of course, lawyers will make a buttload of money on this. And the PSL holders will feel screwed once again.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ained-language-regarding-relocation-lawsuits/
If that guy did indeed get that wording from the Rams, then it may establish what they were selling to people buying newer PSLs. The question I suppose I would have is who sent the email. I have dug up info that says the Rams are not the ones who even sold the 49,000+ original PSLs and that most of them were sold before the Rams were even committed to move to St Louis. You can find it in this thread:
http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/lawsuit-between-cvc-and-nfl-rams-blackballed.42649/#post-701290
 

Pancake

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The angry fans want so desperately to blame the Rams and SK but it all keeps coming back to the CVC.
 

RamFan503

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I'm not trying to absolve anyone but I have witnessed all too many self serving government and pseudo government officials. It sure seems the CVC was full of them.
 

OldSchool

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Taken from another Rams board but there is legal precedent set for this type of lawsuit. Granted there were not PSL's at this time but we've already seen the language of the PSL's favor the NFL/Teams.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/67208330/when-fans-sue-courts-always-favor-the-leagues

When owner Georgia Frontiere picked up her Los Angeles Rams and moved them east to St. Louis in 1995, Larry Charpentier sued, claiming the team had breached its contract with season ticket holders. In his suit, Charpentier, who originally filed suit under the name "Fight for the Rams," alleged that since 1946, the team had granted every season ticket holder the right to renew his tickets in the subsequent year -- even when the team moved from Los Angeles to Anaheim. However, when they transplanted to St. Louis, this right was denied despite the fact that the season ticket renewal form stated in part, "YOUR SEASON RESERVATION IS VALUABLE. You have the privilege to renew reserved seat locations for the upcoming season."

Charpentier stated he did not purchase his tickets "with the intent of watching a poor performing football team play for the 1994 season, only to have the team leave at the end of the year. Instead, [he] purchased [his seat] merely to 'reserve' the seat location of [his] season tickets in the future when [he] hoped that [the Rams] would provide a quality professional football team product."

Unfortunately, the court didn't see it that way and dismissed the case. In the court's opinion, several obvious -- and frankly, disturbing -- conclusions were reached. For one, "Just because a team has played for years in a particular location and has always done something a particular way does not mean that it must always do so." The court also wrote that Charpentier "did not buy the right to watch a good team or to have enlightened (in his opinion) management decisions made." And though the court admitted, "It is common knowledge that professional sports franchisees have a sordid history of arrogant disdain for the consumers of the product," the final ruling stated that Charpentier's recourse was limited to a personal decision to "give up on the team when he felt it had given up on him."

Despite this result, when Art Modell relocated the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore a year later, season ticket holders again attacked the offending franchise for trampling on their assumed rights.

Two different suits were brought. In the first, Stern v. Cleveland Browns Football Club, the fan posited that when the team made its mid-season relocation announcement, the quality of play faltered, which deprived him of "the entertainment, the aura, the enthusiasm of a Cleveland Browns Football team in 1995, and in the future." The court ruled that good or bad, the quality of the Browns' play wasn't an actionable offense. Specifically, "That the Browns performed poorly after the announced move to Baltimore cannot serve as a basis from which to find that the Browns breached their contract with season ticket holders. To allow recovery under such a theory would enable any ticket holder not satisfied with the performance of whatever entertainment the ticket procured to seek a refund for such a subjective and unreasonable response."

In the second, more money-minded suit, Beder v. Cleveland Browns, Inc., the plaintiff's claim was that post-announcement the Browns breached its contract with season ticket holders as the value of their tickets for the remainder of the season was significantly diminished. Here, the court even admitted, "This matter reflects that the announcement of the departure of the Browns was an historical moment of extraordinary public pathos to the city of Cleveland and its surrounding region. Indeed, one would be hard put to cite, eliminating outbreaks of war, parallel examples of the public anger that would exceed that expressed in the fall of 1995." That anger, however, had a price. The Browns eventually settled -- in 2001, five years after Modell's announcement -- rewarding each class-action member with $50.
 

Shoman01

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How many PSL's could there be? 25-35k tops? Refund their un used portion, I bet it would cost no more than 3 million. Pocket change for Stan that he can probably write off.
 

RamFan503

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How many PSL's could there be? 25-35k tops? Refund their un used portion, I bet it would cost no more than 3 million. Pocket change for Stan that he can probably write off.
What is the unused portion of a PSL?
 

FrankenRam

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Sure, and we know thats just sour grapes. Anyone rejoicing in Stan losing money for any reason is just bitter because (a) he moved the team and (b) how he went about it.

And while I don't endorse that line of thinking, I at least understand it.

Quite frankly, from my standpoint - I just want the league and more specifically Kroenke to notice. I don't benefit at all - its just entertainment for me - but the NFL was pretty stinking callous in the way this went down. I'd like to see them learn from their mistakes - as this likely won't be the last time a team moves - and I think the only way they learn a thing here is if their pocketbooks get tickled a bit.

Now, there is just no way this turns into a bad move for Stan - the move is just too profitable - so its not like anyone expects him to wish he had stayed. This is looking like it will go down as the most profitable relocation in sports history, for crying out loud.

But it would be nice if the next go around, the league stopped and said - well, what about the existing market? What about the fans we are walking away from with this move? Do we have ANY obligations to consider with respect to them?

Very nicely written. Agree entirely.

And while I don't hardly expect these suits to go anywhere, it would do my heart good if it did. Even if, in the big picture, the total $$ amount that might be recouped from the action will be small pickins for Kroenke, the only thing that gets deleted attention is someone getting in his wallet. Heck, just the fact that he'll have to spend $$ on legal representation to defend them is going to tick him off.
 

LetsGoRams

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I suppose thats one way to look at it. But here is another. Kroenke did what was in best financial interests in moving to LA, so did the league in approving him. These plaintiffs are doing the same thing - it is in their best interests to recoup as much as they can. And why shouldn't they?

Why does it bother you if the Rams get sued? It doesn't mean they will move back, it doesn't mean they will lose salary cap room, what difference does it make to you if Kroenke loses a few hundred thou or even a few mill?

But back to this suit ... even if Kroenke and his lawyers did go over this all with a fine tooth comb - it would have been too late. By the time he became majority owner, these contracts were signed and in force - he inherited any and all of the Rams contractual obligations when he exercised his right to buy the rest of the team. Knowing your exposure and being able to do something about it are two different things.

Don't get me wrong... I would love it if I could recoup some of the money that I've spent on my psl's. I just don't think it's going to happen and I'm not counting on it. Kind of over it at this point. But if this lawsuit is successful and they are able to bring a class action suit against him, it would be wonderful if we could get some $$ back.
 

LetsGoRams

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I saw on Facebook that someone had actually posted the original PSL agreement from Fans, Inc. Don't quote me on this, but it said something like this... "all NFL games played at the football stadium at America's Center" ... was very vague, but didn't sound like it transferred to some place else. I'll see if I can find it and post.
 

LesBaker

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I saw on Facebook that someone had actually posted the original PSL agreement from Fans, Inc. Don't quote me on this, but it said something like this... "all NFL games played at the football stadium at America's Center" ... was very vague, but didn't sound like it transferred to some place else. I'll see if I can find it and post.

PSL's don't transfer that I know of or have ever heard of......to me the issue is more this.........

Based on what Kroenke and Demoff said and did fans would/could easily conclude that the Rams were staying and so then if they purchased PSL's for several thousand dollars they may have a case for fraud and be entitled to a partial refund. It's not a lot of money, and Kroenke will never have to give back a dime and sadly IMO he'd rather spend money fighting it that just give that money back to the people he took it from. Now that it's common knowledge that they have been working on a move since the start there is validity depending on what the state laws are.

Does anyone know what the price ranges were? I would have to imagine that there are companies that purchased suites in the last few years that ponied up big coin for those PSL's.
 

DaveFan'51

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How many PSL's could there be? 25-35k tops? Refund their un used portion, I bet it would cost no more than 3 million. Pocket change for Stan that he can probably write off.
Stan may not want to be the guy who set a "president" By paying these people off!!
 

bluecoconuts

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PSL's don't transfer that I know of or have ever heard of......to me the issue is more this.........

Based on what Kroenke and Demoff said and did fans would/could easily conclude that the Rams were staying and so then if they purchased PSL's for several thousand dollars they may have a case for fraud and be entitled to a partial refund. It's not a lot of money, and Kroenke will never have to give back a dime and sadly IMO he'd rather spend money fighting it that just give that money back to the people he took it from. Now that it's common knowledge that they have been working on a move since the start there is validity depending on what the state laws are.

Does anyone know what the price ranges were? I would have to imagine that there are companies that purchased suites in the last few years that ponied up big coin for those PSL's.

Did Stan collect any of that money or was it done through a third party?