Kurt Warner on QBs and scheme

[Elmgrovegnome]

Kurt was in Mike and Mike this morning 11/10 and said that the scheme has to fit the QB. He said it can be as simple as making your reads a certain way.

He said in Martz system his reads were deep to short and it suited him. When he went to the Giants the reads were short to long and he had a real problem with it. Then when he went to Arizona the read progression was from deep to short again and he did well again. So he said the system has to fit the QB and not the other way around.

Did Kelly's system read deep to short or vice versa? Kurt claims the that most West coast offenses read short to long. Is the Rams current system reversed from that of the Eagles? Is that part of why Foles looks so bad and is so late on deeper passes?

 

[Merlin]

I'm definitely in the "Foles isn't garbage" camp. He's an average to above average QB that needs to be utilized correctly. He has a future HoF type RB settling in the backfield with him, but strangely the play action has not been nearly as prevalent as it should be in this offense. Said it over and over that Cigs was putting him in the shotgun with terrible results, and with this line and team around him the threat of the run is paramount.

Maybe this offseason after they get Foles a better WR or two they can line him up at shotgun like that and take the wraps off him. But at this point in time the team around him is not good enough neither is Foles the type of QB who will elevate everyone. He has good leadership, he's a positive force in the huddle and the locker room, and I think the Rams will be able to win a lot of games with him. Just use him correctly.

Oh and please don't think I'm making excuses for Nick Foles. I'm not. I've said plenty of times that he is not playing well enough. But it's not just him, right now the guy does not have a weapon in the passing game he can rely on. These guys drop passes, don't run the right routes, don't finish blocks on runs and screens, etc. So anyway it's nice to hear Kurt give his own example of how the usage of the player can affect their production because Cigs clearly needs to raise the bar on that passing game.

 

[blackbart]

I think Foles main problem is he has to see the guy open before he throws the ball. That is never going to work in the NFL. Combine that with his low drop back and slowly developing plays and he's not going anywhere but the ice tub.

He doesn't seem to know the offense well enough to make a pre-snap read and then make adjustments so the calls have to be there or it is doomed. I will admit I have heard the kill kill call but rarely see the kind of adjustments that turn a bad play call in to a decent gain.

Getting "better receivers" will not help if 35% of his throws are uncatchable.

 

[GabesHorn]

Lets find out sooner rather than later if Nick Foles' problems are correctable or not . I think signing Welker will force Nick to at least attempt what up until now must be against all NF's can stand. I really HOPE Wes Welker has a little left in the tank and will not get hurt on his first real hits. Welker has more recieving Knowledge than Sherman forgot along with EVERY Ram reciever currently on our team.

Nick Foles throw to what we KNOW you see open. Screw Fisher, when we score he can bitch all he wants. Too many guys are almost 10 yards open knowing by now you WON'T throw it to them. SURPRISE US ALL. Throw a slant or dare to throw over the Middle to an open reciever in HORNS. Will it Require HOLY WATER? I can get that. I promise you a 3-4 TD throwing game will heal what is ailing you.

We with the fake to Tavon Austin one way and Gurley another gives you so much time to scan the field WITH NOTHING coming your way. RELEASE THE BALL DOWN FIELD TO SAID OPEN RECIEVER chest level PLEASE and let THE RAMS Succeed at what we have created . A wide open free running reciever. This is what every offense wishes they had NICK. Get over your fears and LOOK & THROW the DAMN BALL. I promise you won't die.

I would'nt waste but one more game if he won't throw to the free running reciever. I don't care if it is Cook even. He will be wide open again. I know these guys have told Sherman they are Freaking open. He can see the all 22 film himself. Foles this is your last chance Bruh. We really would like you to grasp this and be our guy. Shake it off man. Take the open man. WE WIN!!!

 

[RamFan503]

Lets find out sooner rather than later if Nick Foles' problems are correctable or not . I think signing Welker will force Nick to at least attempt what up until now must be against all NF's can stand. I really HOPE Wes Welker has a little left in the tank and will not get hurt on his first real hits. Welker has more recieving Knowledge than Sherman forgot along with EVERY Ram reciever currently on our team.

Nick Foles throw to what we KNOW you see open. Screw Fisher, when we score he can bitch all he wants. Too many guys are almost 10 yards open knowing by now you WON'T throw it to them. SURPRISE US ALL. Throw a slant or dare to throw over the Middle to an open reciever in HORNS. Will it Require HOLY WATER? I can get that. I promise you a 3-4 TD throwing game will heal what is ailing you.

We with the fake to Tavon Austin one way and Gurley another gives you so much time to scan the field WITH NOTHING coming your way. RELEASE THE BALL DOWN FIELD TO SAID OPEN RECIEVER chest level PLEASE and let THE RAMS Succeed at what we have created . A wide open free running reciever. This is what every offense wishes they had NICK. Get over your fears and LOOK & THROW the DAMN BALL. I promise you won't die.

I would'nt waste but one more game if he won't throw to the free running reciever. I don't care if it is Cook even. He will be wide open again. I know these guys have told Sherman they are Freaking open. He can see the all 22 film himself. Foles this is your last chance Bruh. We really would like you to grasp this and be our guy. Shake it off man. Take the open man. WE WIN!!!

Seriously dude - ease up with the hyperbole. Use it all you want in the vent thread.

 

[RamFan503]

I think Foles main problem is he has to see the guy open before he throws the ball.

I'm not going to say that Foles has been playing well but I don't see this as his problem. He has thrown jump balls several times - in particular to Britt. I'm not sure why he is not throwing to some open receivers but he seems to take more risks than just about any of our other recent QBs not named Davis have taken.

In this game it could have been possible that he didn't trust his arm to be strong enough in that wind. I dunno. He missed several passes when he did throw them to what appeared to be an open man.

The offense didn't play well enough to win. I'm just not sure Foles waiting until the guy gets open is the problem.

 

[PressureD41]

Why has Quick been invisible to date?

 

[Rmfnlt]

Why has Quick been invisible to date?

Football is a funny thing...

On one hand, it seems so simplistic (just beat the man in front of you)...

On the other hand, it's pieces like the OP that remind me that it's also a very complicated game.

I've always felt that championship teams are like jigsaw puzzles.... a bunch of individual pieces (players, coaches, schemes) that have to somehow fit.

One piece out of kilter and the whole thing doesn't make sense.

Clearly, our offense is out of kilter... the pieces don't seem to fit together right now.

The thing that worries me a bit is how hard it can be to get all the pieces to fit... hopefully, the puzzle gets figured out (soon).

Your question is a good example... the "Quick piece" seemed to fit last year... but this year it does not. Mind boggling, at times.

 

[GabesHorn]

Seriously dude - ease up with the hyperbole. Use it all you want in the vent thread.

Gotcha . Do you have access to a copy of a coach's all 22 game film of the vikes game? If I had not seen it maybe I would not be so far over the edge. I'm sorry I'll wait a while on posting till my mind forgets what I saw. Please forgive me. Wish it was freely available and many would ask the same questions. I'm still not clear on posting rules obviously. I'll start there. I know it takes a lot to shock you 503 . Wish I could pay somehow for you to have a copy.

 

[PressureD41]

Football is a funny thing...

On one hand, it seems so simplistic (just beat the man in front of you)...

On the other hand, it's pieces like the OP that remind me that it's also a very complicated game.

I've always felt that championship teams are like jigsaw puzzles.... a bunch of individual pieces (players, coaches, schemes) that have to somehow fit.

One piece out of kilter and the whole thing doesn't make sense.

Clearly, our offense is out of kilter... the pieces don't seem to fit together right now.

The thing that worries me a bit is how hard it can be to get all the pieces to fit... hopefully, the puzzle gets figured out (soon).

Your question is a good example... the "Quick piece" seemed to fit last year... but this year it does not. Mind boggling, at times.

I just find it crazy he's been targeted only 8 times. I wonder if his compete level isn't turned up.. I hope he can get a few catches to build up his confidence. Otherwise I'm finally going to demand us drafting a wr early. Our wr core appears to need a facelift. Its mind blowing how quiet he's game has been since returning! SMH

 

[RamzFanz]

I think Foles main problem is he has to see the guy open before he throws the ball. That is never going to work in the NFL. Combine that with his low drop back and slowly developing plays and he's not going anywhere but the ice tub.

He doesn't seem to know the offense well enough to make a pre-snap read and then make adjustments so the calls have to be there or it is doomed. I will admit I have heard the kill kill call but rarely see the kind of adjustments that turn a bad play call in to a decent gain.

Getting "better receivers" will not help if 35% of his throws are uncatchable.

I believe your claim of 35% includes balls defended, batted, and thrown away.

 

[RamFan503]

Gotcha . Do you have access to a copy of a coach's all 22 game film of the vikes game? If I had not seen it maybe I would not be so far over the edge. I'm sorry I'll wait a while on posting till my mind forgets what I saw. Please forgive me. Wish it was freely available and many would ask the same questions. I'm still not clear on posting rules obviously. I'll start there. I know it takes a lot to shock you 503 . Wish I could pay somehow for you to have a copy.

Nah man. It doesn't take the all 22 to see that we left a lot of plays on the field. It wasn't as much about breaking the rules as it was about being over the top on how you related what you saw. It just ended up coming off like a vent instead of discussing what you saw.

 

[blackbart]

I believe your claim of 35% includes balls defended, batted, and thrown away.

Highly possible, add in some drops and he will be lucky to be in the upper 50 percentile for completions. Not good enough.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

One piece out of kilter and the whole thing doesn't make sense.

It's strange that Fisher and Snead knew exactly what pieces they needed to make a good defense but don't have a clue how to build their offense. Quick, Britt, Amendola, Givens, Bailey.....how many misses they going to have. I bet that a few of these players would be very good on the right team. I bet Green Bay would love to have Quick right now with their WR injuries. I bet the Saints would make use of Bailey (before suspension). The Patriots already like Amendola. Yet there just doesn't seem to be the right, or any fit for Fishers offense. It really seems like he just wants to run with an occasional deep throw, a la the Steelers of the 70's. Meanwhile the Cardinals are putting up 40 on teams that the Rams eke by.

Someone posted about Dak Prescott's closest comp being Steve McNair. I wonder if Fisher will end up drafting him, then we will know that he is just grasping at straws and looking to the past for answers. It seems he is only sure of one thing about an offense; that a great runningback really helps a lot. Other than that it just doesn't seem like there is much of a plan. At least not enough of one to keep up with todays higher scoring teams. Chuck Knox has proven that even the 90s 'ground chuck' football no longer is enough.

I really wish that Chudzinski had not passed up the opportunity with the Rams. Fisher definitely needs an offensive coordinator with a strong personality that knows exactly what he wants to do. I'd suggest Martz but he doesn't like to run enough for Fishers taste.

We are still missing a few pieces to the puzzle, obviously.

 

[Rmfnlt]

It's strange that Fisher and Snead knew exactly what pieces they needed to make a good defense but don't have a clue how to build their offense. Quick, Britt, Amendola, Givens, Bailey.....how many misses they going to have. I bet that a few of these players would be very good on the right team. I bet Green Bay would love to have Quick right now with their WR injuries. I bet the Saints would make use of Bailey (before suspension). The Patriots already like Amendola. Yet there just doesn't seem to be the right, or any fit for Fishers offense. It really seems like he just wants to run with an occasional deep throw, a la the Steelers of the 70's. Meanwhile the Cardinals are putting up 40 on teams that the Rams eke by.

Someone posted about Dak Prescott's closest comp being Steve McNair. I wonder if Fisher will end up drafting him, then we will know that he is just grasping at straws and looking to the past for answers. It seems he is only sure of one thing about an offense; that a great runningback really helps a lot. Other than that it just doesn't seem like there is much of a plan. At least not enough of one to keep up with todays higher scoring teams. Chuck Knox has proven that even the 90s 'ground chuck' football no longer is enough.

I really wish that Chudzinski had not passed up the opportunity with the Rams. Fisher definitely needs an offensive coordinator with a strong personality that knows exactly what he wants to do. I'd suggest Martz but he doesn't like to run enough for Fishers taste.

We are still missing a few pieces to the puzzle, obviously.

That experiment back in 2013, where they decided to attempt the spread to play to Bradford's strengths, set them back terribly, IMO.

* Tried to shore up the OIline with vets (Long, etc.). They are all gone now.
* Tried to beef up the "weapons" on offense (drafted Austin and Bailey, acquired Cook)

I still remember Schottenheimer saying in TC and pre-season that our offense had been upgraded so that it will keep DCs up at night.

So... off we went with the experiment... I think they stuck with it for about five weeks? It wasn't going well, obviously.

Fork in the road for Fisher.

1] Have faith in Schottenheimer and what they had decided on and built that off season - stay the course
2] Chuck it and go conservative

We know what he did. And, to me, we've been paying for it ever since.

Consider:
* We've had to totally rebuild our Oline because the vets brought in to provide the protection for the spread are now gone. Vets proficient at pass protect have been replaced by rookies road graders we hope).
* Neither Bailey nor Cook has flourished since ending the experiment
* Austin is improving.... but they are leaning too much on him and defenses will shut him down.
* Luckily, Gurley can do a LOT on how own!

So, at this point, we have "pieces" from an old puzzle (spread) that they are trying to fit into a new puzzle (heavy run, play action).

The Oline has been re-tooled to accent the new puzzle... but the skill positions still don't seem to fit.

 

[dieterbrock]

I think folks are missing the point of the article. Seems like it just turned in to another Foles thread.
I like what Kurt said, and imparts a lot of wisdom,
Cant fit a guy in to a system, the system has to accomodate the QB
Here's a great article on what appearing to have made a difference in Philly:
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2015 ... back-stats
Eagles News: Chip Kelly is simplifying the playbook to help Sam Bradford
"As it turns out, it isn't necessarily a coincidence that Eagles quarterback Sam Bradford has had his best two games of the season the past two weeks. As Bradford pointed out following Wednesday's practice, the coaching staff has simplified the playbook in recent weeks, tailoring the game plans to his strengths after a rocky first several weeks to start the season. "In the past couple of weeks we've kind of found what we're good at," Bradford said. "Some of the pass concept and things that I'm comfortable with and we're comfortable with as an offense. We've just kind of repped those and we're going to go out there and run those plays on Sundays"

Kurt is one of my favorite players of all time and when he signed with the Giants, I was concerned for him (even though I'd be able to see him play live). And watching him play was painful, just didnt seem like he was able to do what he was best at, and struggled with the way things were. I kind of feel that way with Foles

 

[fearsomefour]

I think Foles main problem is he has to see the guy open before he throws the ball. That is never going to work in the NFL. Combine that with his low drop back and slowly developing plays and he's not going anywhere but the ice tub.

He doesn't seem to know the offense well enough to make a pre-snap read and then make adjustments so the calls have to be there or it is doomed. I will admit I have heard the kill kill call but rarely see the kind of adjustments that turn a bad play call in to a decent gain.

Getting "better receivers" will not help if 35% of his throws are uncatchable.

Like this 20 times if I could, well said.
His waiting to see guys open is why he also doesn't throw many picks....similar to Kap. Low picks, but long stretches of futility. That Eagles O also schemed a lot of quick throws....so, really one receiver on a route, ball is out quick, short throw, an extension of the running game.
Watching veteran pocket QBs that are good you will see them throw the ball as the receiver goes into his break. A timing route. In most cases if you see a guy running open across the middle so does a S or someone else. The picture that another poster (forgot whom, sorry) put up on the Where Should Nick Throw thread was a great example. Foles is holding the ball, Bailey is stopping on his route and Cook is breaking open....that is when the ball needs to be thrown....if he goes to Bailey by the time he gets turned around he ball is nearly there, nothing the DB can do. If he goes to Cook he has a step and the S has not had the opportunity to get there yet.
Foles gets hit quite a bit. But, the Oline pass blocking has generally been pretty good lately. There were a bunch of plays vs Minnesota where he is standing in the pocket for several seconds....then it breaks down. He is creating that "pressure" because he is not getting rid of the ball.

 

[Athos]

He's an average to above average QB that needs to be utilized correctly.

Just say sure where you are seeing this. At least the above average part. When I think above average, I think of a guy who is pretty darn good making reads/making plays/finding the EZ.

Not saying a system change to suit Foles shouldn't be tried, but I've seen a QB with wildly erratic accuracy, a penchant to just ignore the middle of the field, and a tendency to float the ball with not the greatest touch.

He's tough as nails....but I'm not sure the cerebral part of QB-ing is his strong suit.

---

Anyway. Kurt is on the money in my opinion. I don't think you can force a guy into a certain style of play that takes away said QB's strengths. You try and tailor the system to him....and once he gets more seasoning, start adding wrinkles/complexity if need be. If Wilson has in a pocket passer system........he'd be out of the league. He can't make plays in the pocket. If you tried to make him Brees, you'd fail. He needs the read option to just keep his head above water as a game manager.

Which is why I'm all for a guy like this Goff. A quick reader, quick release guy. Perfect type of QB for a run-first team if that's what we're gonna stay as.

I still remember Schottenheimer saying in TC and pre-season that our offense had been upgraded so that it will keep DCs up at night.

I don't think Shotty knows how to coach an up-tempo shot-gun style offense if it came up and b-slapped him in the face....There's a reason he went to UGA imo. All about the RB. What was his MO in NY? Running game. You have to have the offensive mind to run the kind of offense your QB is suited too....Shotty has no idea how to run a modern offense.

 

[fearsomefour]

Just say sure where you are seeing this. At least the above average part. When I think above average, I think of a guy who is pretty darn good making reads/making plays/finding the EZ.

Not saying a system change to suit Foles shouldn't be tried, but I've seen a QB with wildly erratic accuracy, a penchant to just ignore the middle of the field, and a tendency to float the ball with not the greatest touch.

He's tough as nails....but I'm not sure the cerebral part of QB-ing is his strong suit.

---

Anyway. Kurt is on the money in my opinion. I don't think you can force a guy into a certain style of play that takes away said QB's strengths. You try and tailor the system to him....

Agreed.
Ryan Fitzpatrick is an above average QB to me. Decent reads, decent arm strength, good anticipation usually and good touch. Can make throws and is usually pretty effective. He is finally getting away from thinking he is Brett Favre and forcing throwing into coverage usually.
To me Foles has tools to do some nice things. He is tough, big, throws a nice deep ball. I would keep the deep shots per game and mix some other stuff up....let him contribute....let him put in a couple of plays he is comfortable with. Get the passing game going.

 

[VinnyRam]

Agree with most stuff Warner said.. There was a play against Pittsburgh that Mason went straight out of the backfield without chipping a blocker or anything and he went right down the middle and Foles hit him--easy catch--nice play--first read and ball out.. Never have seen that play run all year again. Another play I recall--misdirection play and rolled out to the right and hit Kendricks across the same way for nice gain. Nice screen plays to Cunningham in Seattle game. With such a young line and bad receivers--why did we get away from running back screens, rolling Foles out for a different look, etc. I watch Woodhead with San Diego get 6-8 passes out of the backfield a week--just an extension of the running game--and he always gets positive yards??? Brady does same thing with his backs. Why the heck we cannot come up with a game plan that uses our strengths is a big question? Wide receiver screen is a great play--but not 5 times every single week. If we open a drive with a pass and its incomplete--you can bet $50 the next play will be a 2 yard run setting up 3rd and 8---and Hekker puts his helmet on knowing we wont execute.