Kroenk Plays the 'Victim' Card

[OldSchool]

My question is this: If Georgia had not died, what were her feelings have been when she was in SK's shoes ??? (With regard to the dome, new stadium, leaving etc)... What would she have done ??? I'm just curious ...

Nobody will ever know, but what we do know is when the first checkpoint came up in 2002 she didn't waive the clause in the contract she merely delayed the check date 10 years. I'm inclined to believe she would have held them to it still. But again with her dead we'll never know and wondering on it is kind of pointless.

 

[rams2050]

And financial people already are saying that the new digs in LA won't come in at the $1.6 billion that is being bandied about now. What I've been reading is that $2.66 million is the more likely number -- and possibly up to $3 billion.

Here is one source:

The Rams will play in a new state-of-the-art facility, built on the old Hollywood Park racetrack. It’s slated to feature a glass ceiling, an adjacent 6,000-seat performing arts venue, and an estimated total cost of $3 billion. Even though it took until January for the NFL owners to decide on relocation, Rams owner Stan Kroenke has already broken ground on the development space.

http://heavy.com/sports/2016/01/los...-cost-seats-coliseum-temporary-when-finished/

 

[OldSchool]

And financial people already are saying that the new digs in LA won't come in at the $1.6 billion that is being bandied about now. What I've been reading is that $2.66 million is the more likely number -- and possibly up to $3 billion.

Here is one source:

The Rams will play in a new state-of-the-art facility, built on the old Hollywood Park racetrack. It’s slated to feature a glass ceiling, an adjacent 6,000-seat performing arts venue, and an estimated total cost of $3 billion. Even though it took until January for the NFL owners to decide on relocation, Rams owner Stan Kroenke has already broken ground on the development space.

http://heavy.com/sports/2016/01/los...-cost-seats-coliseum-temporary-when-finished/

That estimate is for the total development not just for the stadium. And it's been estimated at $1.8B the whole time not 1.6.

 

[RamFan503]

503, my friend, I'm not saying he didn't make a good business decision. I'm saying he stepped on STL in making it and had it mapped out from the first day he saw his chance to takeover. But I will say, whoever tried to sell you on the idea that real estate in LA is as cheap or cheaper than in STL (especially in Inglewood) ..........I would watch what they offer you next. He could have had several places for less. But I will admit..... the NFL wouldn't come a running if his table was in STL......but obviously they have that he's setting up shop in LaLa Land.
That been said.... I will admit.....it (the stadium....and everything else...) will be w/o peer once it's built. And probably all of the extra things he's set up to go into it, wouldn't have happened here.

I said, "but you can count on tax incentives and low property costs to offset that." in talking about the cost of building in the Midwest.

Does that sound like I'm saying real estate is cheaper in LA? Midwest would include areas like St Louis - not LA.

 

[CoachO]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would pay hundreds of millions of dollars for something they were promised for free.As unfortunate as this is for Stl the blame the real blame is misplaced.That lease with the top tier clause was an ace in the hole that any owner in the league would have used.

Blah blah blah. I have never said that I don't get all that.

But at what point does it become so ridiculous that the end game got lost? Find a way to "negotiate in good faith" and reach a compromise that benefits both parties.

You will never convince me that the ONLY way to have satisfied the "top tier" status was with $700M.

Meet in the middle somewhere and WORK TOGETHER to make it happen. Kroenke is now trying to say he is the victim because he didn't get HIS way with STL. If he sincerely wanted to get something done he could and should have.

Lay whatever blame you want on the CVC and the "lease". This never needed to come to this. Kroenke played this to get what he wanted. And there is no way to spin that FACT any differently. After not speaking publicly for years, now you can't shut him up.

Which only furthers my point. With every word that comes out of his mouth, he just makes himself look like the lying snake he is.

 

[Akrasian]

I said, "but you can count on tax incentives and low property costs to offset that." in talking about the cost of building in the Midwest.

Does that sound like I'm saying real estate is cheaper in LA? Midwest would include areas like St Louis - not LA.

What I took you to mean is that while the actual land is (of course) more expensive in Inglewood, a lot of the cost of the project is actually building it. Due to weather delays that HAVE to be factored into major projects in St Louis but not LA, the construction portion can be significantly less expensive in LA.

 

[RamFan503]

What I took you to mean is that while the actual land is (of course) more expensive in Inglewood, a lot of the cost of the project is actually building it. Due to weather delays that HAVE to be factored into major projects in St Louis but not LA, the construction portion can be significantly less expensive in LA.

Among other factors - yes.

 

[JUMAVA68]

Blah blah blah. I have never said that I don't get all that.

But at what point does it become so ridiculous that the end game got lost? Find a way to "negotiate in good faith" and reach a compromise that benefits both parties.

You will never convince me that the ONLY way to have satisfied the "top tier" status was with $700M.

Meet in the middle somewhere and WORK TOGETHER to make it happen. Kroenke is now trying to say he is the victim because he didn't get HIS way with STL. If he sincerely wanted to get something done he could and should have.

Lay whatever blame you want on the CVC and the "lease". This never needed to come to this. Kroenke played this to get what he wanted. And there is no way to spin that FACT any differently. After not speaking publicly for years, now you can't shut him up.

Which only furthers my point. With every word that comes out of his mouth, he just makes himself look like the lying snake he is.

Why would he or anyone else for that matter meet in the middle.The bottom line is the CVC agreed to a stupid clause and couldn't deliver on it.I'm not on Kroenkes side but I understand that it is a business and the clause was a legal agreement.Its easy for us fans to say well he didn't have to move he could've built his own stadium here.But if any of us were in the exact same position imho a good majority would have done the same thing. As far as him being a victim he's wrong but he is being blamed for something that he didn't initiate.So negotiating in good faith would have meant him spending money, on something that was promised for free and he wouldn't even own outright.

 

[CoachO]

Why would he or anyone else for that matter meet in the middle.The bottom line is the CVC agreed to a stupid clause and couldn't deliver on it.I'm not on Kroenkes side but I understand that it is a business and the clause was a legal agreement.Its easy for us fans to say well he didn't have to move he could've built his own stadium here.But if any of us were in the exact same position imho a good majority would have done the same thing. As far as him being a victim he's wrong but he is being blamed for something that he didn't initiate.So negotiating in good faith would have meant him spending money, on something that was promised for free and he wouldn't even own outright.

I'm not for one second saying that he needed to spend any money to get the dome upgraded. Even though Demoff says numerous times that the Rams were more than willing to contribute. I heard him say it in person at multiple Sesson Ticket luncheons. He said it in various radio interviews.

But regardless of those repeated lies, the upgrades didn't need to be as excessive as the Rams proposed. That design was ridiculous. They could have attained "top tier" status, which was a list of categories written into the lease, without needing to spend $700M.

Somewhere between the figure the CVC proposed and that outlandish figure the Rams proposed would have been more than sufficient. With or withou Kroenke contributing a dime.

 

[bluecollarram]

This has opened my eyes to the NFL. Chip and Lucia had a buyer lined up with an agreement to the location, Stan wants the team so The NFL let him out of the cross ownership rule then violates their own relocation rules for Kronke. Must be nice to have more money than thirty other owners. My point is the rulebook is malleable for deep pockets. By their own rules this should never have happened.

 

[JUMAVA68]

If Kroen

I'm not for one second saying that he needed to spend any money to get the dome upgraded. Even though Demoff says numerous times that the Rams were more than willing to contribute. I heard him say it in person at multiple Sesson Ticket luncheons. He said it in various radio interviews.

But regardless of those repeated lies, the upgrades didn't need to be as excessive as the Rams proposed. That design was ridiculous. They could have attained "top tier" status, which was a list of categories written into the lease, without needing to spend $700M.

Somewhere between the figure the CVC proposed and that outlandish figure the Rams proposed would have been more than sufficient. With or withou Kroenke contributing a dime.

If Kroenke didn't contribute a dime to the riverfront stadium I don't see how they would of got to top tier. Maybe his plan was to move the team all along once he became full owner.My point is he would of had a very difficult if not impossible chance to move the team, if not for that clause he had in his back pocket.In fact I'm willing to bet that if that clause never existed he would have not purchased the Rams.So in my eyes the CVC is to blame 100% it was a desperate move that backfired big-time.

 

[FrankenRam]

With all due respect, do you think that $700M was by accident? It was an intentional pie in the sky figure (design) that the Rams knew was never going to be approved or agreed to.

And has been mentioned, even making the assumption for the sake of the conversation, they would have spent that $$$ to keep the lease in effect for only the remaining10 years. And with that being said, the first 2-3 years of that 10 the stadium would have been "closed for repairs".

And the other point that is never talked about is the collateral damage that would have come from the lost convention revenue due to the construction. At the end of the day the "price" of those upgrades would have been at least twice the $700M.

The Rams (Kroenke) made that number so outlandish for the very reason to make sure it wasn't doable. If th CVC was to be blamed for anything, it would have been lowballing their proposal. If they would have come in with a proposal in the $300M range (as opposed to the $160M) it would have been a whole lot harder for the arbitrator to side with the Rams.

You can't tell me this wasn't all part of the grand scheme by Kroenke. As was the case in this latest mess, there was nothing Civic Progress could have done to get the Rams to "negotiate in good faith" and stop this even before the arbitration.

Thank you.

 

[FrankenRam]

This has opened my eyes to the NFL. Chip and Lucia had a buyer lined up with an agreement to the location, Stan wants the team so The NFL let him out of the cross ownership rule then violates their own relocation rules for Kronke. Must be nice to have more money than thirty other owners. My point is the rulebook is malleable for deep pockets. By their own rules this should never have happened.

The only 'rule book' the NFL has that means anything at all is that their pocketbook rules. I never thought for one minute those 'relocation guidelines' were worth more than the paper they were printed on.

 

[CoachO]

If Kroen

If Kroenke didn't contribute a dime to the riverfront stadium I don't see how they would of got to top tier. Maybe his plan was to move the team all along once he became full owner.My point is he would of had a very difficult if not impossible chance to move the team, if not for that clause he had in his back pocket.In fact I'm willing to bet that if that clause never existed he would have not purchased the Rams.So in my eyes the CVC is to blame 100% it was a desperate move that backfired big-time.

You completely missed what I said. I wasn't referring to the Riverfront stadium project.

He proposed the $700M design for the sole purpose of making sure it didn't get approved. IMO somewhere closer to $300M would have satisfied the "top tier" clause. And could have been doable.

But Kroenke had no interest in finding anything that would be workable so his counter proposal to that of the CVC was to make sure it would never fly.

If he was sincere in keeping the team in STL as he plainly stated he was in his last public comments in 2012, then negotiate in good faith and find something that works for both parties.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Which only furthers my point. With every word that comes out of his mouth, he just makes himself look like the lying snake he is.

Which astute businessman isn't a lying snake? I remember early in the relocation process someone, probably you, said that demoff told the fans not to listen to the noise and that the process will get much worse before it gets better. Reality was the process only got worse and would never get better, which he knew all along. He delivered the fans a shit sandwich of false hope.

.

 

[FrankenRam]

.....Meet in the middle somewhere and WORK TOGETHER to make it happen. Kroenke is now trying to say he is the victim because he didn't get HIS way with STL. If he sincerely wanted to get something done he could and should have.....

Lay whatever blame you want on the CVC and the "lease". This never needed to come to this. Kroenke played this to get what he wanted. And there is no way to spin that FACT any differently. After not speaking publicly for years, now you can't shut him up.......

Exactly.

One has to be wearing some seriously rose colored glasses to try and spin this any other way.

SK had all the leverage. He could easily have just told CVC/Governor Nixon/Mayor Slay/Whoever.....

'Look, this stadium arrangement sucks...for both sides. You'll never be able to live up to that 'top tier' clause for any length of time. And I ain't droppin' $700mil on a venue I don't own. Ain't gonna happen. But surely this whole mess can be renegotiated and a compromise arrangement can be reached that works better for all...and most importantly keeps the Rams in STL for a long time.'

But once he realized how much he could increase the value of the Rams by moving to LA, that 'top tier' clause was nothing more than his 'out'......and he used it like a 20lb sledge. STL never had a chance once that light bulb flickered on.

 

[The Rammer]

Stan is the victim! Man I feel for the poor billionaires! I wish I would of won that f'n lottery to be a douche bag to....

 

[JUMAVA68]

You completely missed what I said. I wasn't referring to the Riverfront stadium project.

He proposed the $700M design for the sole purpose of making sure it didn't get approved. IMO somewhere closer to $300M would have satisfied the "top tier" clause. And could have been doable.

But Kroenke had no interest in finding anything that would be workable so his counter proposal to that of the CVC was to make sure it would never fly.

If he was sincere in keeping the team in STL as he plainly stated he was in his last public comments in 2012, then negotiate in good faith and find something that works for both parties.

My mistake if misunderstood you, but honestly I don't think 300 million would have satisfied the clause. Not with all these new stadiums that have gone up in the last 20 years or so. But I suspect that your right about Kroenke not wanting to negotiate. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that he purchased the team knowing that clause was unattainable.

 

[ramsince62]

It's not personal, it's only business is probably my single most hated phrase.

It's like saying "it's not you, it's me" when you dump a chick. It's always "you".

And it's always personal.

Boss: Hey Gary, we're going to have to let you go after working for us for 20 years. You make more than we want to pay, so your being let go. It's not personal, it's just business.

Gary: When I tell my family that we have to move, I'll be sure to let them know it wasn't personal...

Uggh I hate that crap.

I'm not condoning it, only describing it.....change is often difficult.

 

[bluecoconuts]

IMO somewhere closer to $300M would have satisfied the "top tier" clause. And could have been doable.

How do you figure? Didn't St Louis propose something about that price range and it was essentially deemed not even close?