JL, whipping boy

[Memphis Ram]

Really? I'm not sure this is true. It could just seem that way because they dont share the same view as you......Although I believe there are intangibles that go with they're (JL,Long)average to above average play that are too hard to find league wide..... little lone in a rookie. Talent wise of course they can be upgraded. ...but for example can a rookie MLB help this team be better this year? I'm not so sure.

Go Rams.........

Seems true to me. You're even doing it a little here in asking can a rookie MLB help this team be better this year, IMO.

I've given credit for what I believe Laurinatis provides in this thread while at the same time pointed out what I deemed to be his shortcomings. Over time, I've done the same for just about every player on the team. And the only time I've gotten or seen such responses with the current roster is when Long or Laurinaitis are discussed. It's as if they've replaced Warner as untouchable to say anything negative about.

 

[HometownBoy]

Well, of course, solid players can be enough under the right circumstances. Good scheme. Everyone on the same page. Some better than solid talent on the same side of the ball that fits. Now, you'd hope that they wouldn't be paid like superstar players at the expense of adding more talent, but they can be enough on the field.

But, the Hall of Fame, NEED vs. want type responses only seem to come up when someone says something not positive about Long or Laurinaitis is seems. It's as if they have been deemed as untouchables to discuss, if one is not offering complete and utter praise towards them.

I'm not certain that's true, I know because I've seen it said for guys like JJ, the QB position in general, our WRs etc etc.

Also solid players are enough, for every team. Find me one team, elite or other wise that is comprised entirely of players above solid and I'll concede the point, talking like solid players have to have some high barometers to succeed is silly, they are on every team, playing a solid game everywhere and have been since the beginning of time. Like I already said in a previous post in this thread the GSOT was chock full of them. How many people do you think are rushing to throw Agnew, Mike Jones, Farr, Nutten, Timmerman, Proehl, Hakim and many more into the Hall of Fame? How many people on that team do you think are Hall of Fame bound. Holt, Pace, Bruce, Faulk, Warner and maybe Fletcher right? That's not even HALF of the starters. Solid players aren't IFs they are givens.

What you might be noticing instead is the inordinate amount of threads that hound on JL55 and Chris Long. There are at least 5 of these threads in any given month. Saying the exact same thing over and over again every time anybody feels the need to point out that Long and JL55 aren't destined for the Hall of Fame and thus are in need of upgrade is going to make it look like it happens all the time.

 

[Fatbot]

Everyone wants stats that no one keeps about how far a tackle is made downfield on a running play once the credited tackler gets there.

If you want individual linebacker examination, see: http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/stats/defensive-players/linebackers

Advanced Football Analytics has JL as the #2 linebacker in the NFL last season -- which is crazy since I think last year was his worst season. He was hobbled and a step slow. His individual ranking at that site has fluctuated from being unranked as a rookie to 10th-30th range to second best in the NFL, which to me speaks volumes about trying to measure this stuff. There's no year-to-year sticky correlation because the "true skill" is drowned out by all the variable noise.

The problem with *individual* rankings is that it runs into the PFF money machine fallacy that tries to sell (literally) the impossibility of objectively grading individuals in football, the ultimate team sport. Every time someone does something "successful" on a given play, it's because anywhere from 1-10 other teammates on the field did something successful to allow that guy to be successful... Not to mention that every outcome could be viewed from the opposite perspective that instead of someone's "success" it might have been 1-11 opposing players screwing up instead as the primary reason...

So your desire to know how far downfield JL makes tackles would be polluted by all those contributing variables, not to mention the offense/defense scheme, quality of opponent, field conditions, etc., and most importantly context -- Imagine you read in a play-by-play that JL made a tackle on a 20-yard gain and say "ha! see I told you he only makes tackles 20 yards downfield!" when in reality it was a sweep away from him blitzing from the opposite side, and you're bad-mouthing him for busting his ass running 60 yards chasing down the carrier to save a would-be touchdown.

If you want more imperfect stats, I already posted the "stuffs" totals for JL showing him way better than ESPN's wet dream linebacker (of course ESPN gets a chubby any time a Whiner is anything better than replacement player level). You can also see Football Outsiders defensive line stats "(more accurately, defensive front seven stats)": http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

Here are the Rams front 7 rankings in:
- overall rank
- power rank (Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer.)
- stuffed (Percentage of runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage)

BEFORE JL ARRIVES
Year -- Overall Ranking -- Power Rank -- Stuffed Rank
2008 -- 32nd (worst in NFL) -- 17th -- 22nd

AFTER JL ARRIVES
Year -- Overall Ranking -- Power Rank -- Stuffed Rank
2009 -- 22nd -- 13th -- 19th
2010 -- 18th -- 6th -- 11th
2011 -- 23rd -- 8th -- 19th
2012 -- 2nd -- 13th -- 3rd
2013 -- 5th -- 4th -- 2nd
2014 -- 3rd -- 4th -- 5th

JL does something right. Maybe every time he makes a tackle he doesn't get a hand-job from Chris Berman and the highlight shown 1,000 times like Willis, that's not his fault. The front 7 has been top-5 three years running and looks to get even better this year, I'll happily take it and JL barking out the orders.

 

[blue4]

I think the reason JL and Long get so much respect here is due to the fact that they bring it every game. They don't get lost at big moments like JJ or the safeties. They don't disappear for games on end like the WRs can. They provide solid, class act leadership on a team that, by any objective observation, has maturity issues on the field. They are also just as good as 2/3rds of their peers at any given moment. I don't want a combine star rookie MLB in here now, not when the CBs and the Safeties can't decide who's covering who. I don't want to watch a guy like Manning carve up the D by confusing the faster, meaner, yet dumber rookie MLB. At the end of the day for all the talk of aggression and attributes, this is still a thinking man's game. We've lost because we don't play smart, we don't coach smart. Not because the MLB's 40 time is .2 seconds slower than a draft picks, or that he's not frothing at the mouth in the huddle.

 

[rams56]

Seems true to me. You're even doing it a little here in asking can a rookie MLB help this team be better this year, IMO.

I've given credit for what I believe Laurinatis provides in this thread while at the same time pointed out what I deemed to be his shortcomings. Over time, I've done the same for just about every player on the team. And the only time I've gotten or seen such responses with the current roster is when Long or Laurinaitis are discussed. It's as if they've replaced Warner as untouchable to say anything negative about.

I can understand your point. But believe me......me asking why you believe something to be true and telling you my opinion on that same subject is not the same as me treating them as untouchable. It is simply having a conversation on said matter. I do respect your opinion. ..........

Go Rams.............

 

[Memphis Ram]

I'm not certain that's true, I know because I've seen it said for guys like JJ, the QB position in general, our WRs etc etc.

Also solid players are enough, for every team. Find me one team, elite or other wise that is comprised entirely of players above solid and I'll concede the point, talking like solid players have to have some high barometers to succeed is silly, they are on every team, playing a solid game everywhere and have been since the beginning of time. Like I already said in a previous post in this thread the GSOT was chock full of them. How many people do you think are rushing to throw Agnew, Mike Jones, Farr, Nutten, Timmerman, Proehl, Hakim and many more into the Hall of Fame? How many people on that team do you think are Hall of Fame bound. Holt, Pace, Bruce, Faulk, Warner and maybe Fletcher right? That's not even HALF of the starters. Solid players aren't IFs they are givens.

What you might be noticing instead is the inordinate amount of threads that hound on JL55 and Chris Long. There are at least 5 of these threads in any given month. Saying the exact same thing over and over again every time anybody feels the need to point out that Long and JL55 aren't destined for the Hall of Fame and thus are in need of upgrade is going to make it look like it happens all the time.

But, HometownBoy has anyone said that all players have to be Hall of Famers? Has anyone said that most of the players have to be Hall of Famers? Has anyone said that solid players don't exist on good teams/units? Positions can be upgraded without being upgraded by Hall of Famers.

Sorry, but I've not noticed an inordinate amount of threads that hound on JL55 or Chris Long. But I have noticed some that critic them only to see them grow when the calvary comes to defend them. Many, of whom, go overboard with this Hall of Fame type stuff.

 

[Angry Ram]

How would someone address a poster who says they will always disagree?

By respecting them and not insulting them using labels.

You did swoop in and berate

My only other post not addressing you was pointing out the w/o JL the team would've lost in SF and outsmarted Peyton Manning.

So any negative thoughts on J.L. would have brought ire no matter what right?

No, just insulting and berating comments.

I think none of our players when we see how easily they are injured and replaced in todays NFL are above critisism.

Who said that? JL and CL aren't problems, and making them seem into a problem doesn't accomplish anything. Players come and go, but right now as they are playing? They are fine where they are. When it comes to be replaced, so be it.

All I can say is I'm sorry. I truly see why JL may be untouchable and I appologize sincerely

Backhanded much?

 

[HometownBoy]

But, HometownBoy has anyone said that all players have to be Hall of Famers? Has anyone said that most of the players have to be Hall of Famers? Has anyone said that solid players don't exist on good teams/units? Positions can be upgraded without being upgraded by Hall of Famers.

Sorry, but I've not noticed an inordinate amount of threads that hound on JL55 or Chris Long. But I have noticed some that critic them only to see them grow when the calvary comes to defend them. Many, of whom, go overboard with this Hall of Fame type stuff.

Then what would you replace a solid player with, what more do you replace an already above average player with? Another player along the same veins? What more do you upgrade to?

Also, caterwauling about people disagreeing with you about something being the cavalry is not going to earn you any points. What do you want to happen, everyone to just stop and agree with you? This is a discussion board, if you didn't want people to be able to disagree with your point you've come to the wrong place. You keep saying we're the ones stopping discussing, but only you seem to be the one trying to derail discussion with talks of personal armies and untouchables every time somebody tries to redirect the discussion back to JL55 or Long's talent, value to the team and what outcome you truly expect.

 

[Corbin]

In the end, both guys (Long & Laurinaitis) are good players. But, their positions could be upgraded just like everyone else. And I hate that the mere suggestion of such causes so much angst among the fanbase.

By the same logic we shouldn't have resigned JJ then. That position could use an upgrade.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I think the reason JL and Long get so much respect here is due to the fact that they bring it every game. They don't get lost at big moments like JJ or the safeties. They don't disappear for games on end like the WRs can. They provide solid, class act leadership on a team that, by any objective observation, has maturity issues on the field. They are also just as good as 2/3rds of their peers at any given moment. I don't want a combine star rookie MLB in here now, not when the CBs and the Safeties can't decide who's covering who. I don't want to watch a guy like Manning carve up the D by confusing the faster, meaner, yet dumber rookie MLB. At the end of the day for all the talk of aggression and attributes, this is still a thinking man's game. We've lost because we don't play smart, we don't coach smart. Not because the MLB's 40 time is .2 seconds slower than a draft picks, or that he's not frothing at the mouth in the huddle.

I have no problem with them garnering respect. They both deserve it. But, when that respect makes them appear to be untouchable for one to point out a negative or two, then it just seems more like hero worship which leads to over exaggerations to me.

Even here, it appears that we are defending whether or not Laurinaitis has been sole the cause of wins and losses.

 

[Memphis Ram]

By the same logic we shouldn't have resigned JJ then. That position could use an upgrade.

I didn't know that they re-signed JJ. But, I agree that his position could use an upgrade, too.

But, I wonder how many are going to get upset if that doesn't happen. Or how many will say that he didn't have to be a Hall of Famer or that they rather have him than some rookie maybe and the like. Just sayin.

 

[bskrilla]

I have no problem with them garnering respect. They both deserve it. But, when that respect makes them appear to be untouchable for one to point out a negative or two, then it just seems more like hero worship which leads to over exaggerations to me.

Even here, it appears that we are defending whether or not Laurinaitis has been sole the cause of wins and losses.

I really don't get that vibe from most JL supporters. Most of us will and have fully admitted that he has flaws to his game and that there are better MLB in the game of football.

The point we're all disagreeing with is when people say he is a liability and NEEDS to be upgraded. I just don't see that as the case yet and others have provided the statistics that back up the claim that at worst JL is slightly above average.

 

[HometownBoy]

I didn't know that they re-signed JJ. But, I agree that his position could use an upgrade, too.

But, I wonder how many are going to get upset if that doesn't happen. Or how many will say that he didn't have to be a Hall of Famer or that they rather have him than some rookie maybe and the like. Just sayin.

Plenty.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/rams-and-janoris-working-on-extension.38620/

 

[Memphis Ram]

Then what would you replace a solid player with, what more do you replace an already above average player with? Another player along the same veins? What more do you upgrade to?

Also, caterwauling about people disagreeing with you about something being the cavalry is not going to earn you any points. What do you want to happen, everyone to just stop and agree with you? This is a discussion board, if you didn't want people to be able to disagree with your point you've come to the wrong place. You keep saying we're the ones stopping discussing, but only you seem to be the one trying to derail discussion with talks of personal armies and untouchables every time somebody tries to redirect the discussion back to JL55 or Long's talent, value to the team and what outcome you truly expect.

The goal is to replace a solid player with a better player. However, if that can't happen, a solid player being replaced by a solid player making less money also can help a team as it potentially allows for more talent to be brought in or the better talent retained.

No caterwauling here. And I'm not looking to earn or lose points. I understand that this is a discussion board and that there will be disagreements. And I'm sorry if my mention of a calvary of posters going overboard to defend him offends you.

BTW, while I'll have to read it again, I'm not sure if I've read anyone that disagrees with my take on Laurinaitis strengths and/or weaknesses nor have I disagreed with the vast majority of takes there.

I've merely pointed out that the responses made whenever JL55 or Long aren't praised and/or get any bit of criticism have not been consistent with other players on the team. And the redirection of any discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses has come from posters, such as yourself, that enter into hyperbole regarding whether or not these guys or their replacements have to be Hall of Famers or how easy they may or may not be to be replaced.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Plenty.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/rams-and-janoris-working-on-extension.38620/

Sorry, but while I saw that some wanted the Rams to extend him, I didn't sense anyone that would be upset if they did not. Those very same posters didn't come close to defending him to to extent that Long and Laurinaitis get defended.

 

[HometownBoy]

The goal is to replace a solid player with a better player. However, if that can't happen, a solid player being replaced by a solid player making less money also can help a team as it potentially allows for more talent to be brought in or the better talent retained.

No caterwauling here. And I'm not looking to earn or lose points. I understand that this is a discussion board and that there will be disagreements. And I'm sorry if my mention of a calvary of posters going overboard to defend him offends you.

BTW, while I'll have to read it again, I'm not sure if I've read anyone that disagrees with my take on Laurinaitis strengths and/or weaknesses nor have I disagreed with the vast majority of takes there.

I've merely pointed out that the responses made whenever JL55 or Long aren't praised and/or get any bit of criticism has not been consistent with other players on the team. The redirection of their talents have come from posters such as yourself that enter into hyperbole regarding whether or not these guys or their replacements have to be Hall of Famers or how easy they may or may not be to be replaced.

Like many, including myself have said. This guy is pretty above average, so what else is above above average? If this is a money thing again then I'm sorry, but why does it matter to us fans? Our team can work around it, and they can change that money any time they want. JL55 and Long are no strangers to restructuring, if the Rams wanted that money they could get it, but they believe that they deserve it, which is why they continue to give it to them. Saying they can be replaced by similar that get paid less is pinning something that has little to do with them on them. Why replace them when you could easily restructure? Because either they don't want to or they can't, which is more likely? Getting on about finances that have nothing to do with us and aren't hindering us seems unnecessary.

Sorry, but making it seem like we're being radically over reactionary when you're the only ones who seems to have moved into posting about people's reactions or feelings over the matter comes off as unnecessarily complaining to me. When anybody defending JL55 or Chris Long start calling you guys haters or overreacting or illogical let me know, because so far that's only been in response to any defense of the two. So far I've only seen facts and stats being stated which have been met with SORRY I DIDN'T MEAN TO BRING THE CALVARY OUT or OOPS MAN LOVE FOR THE SUPER HERO FORGOT THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT THEM so I apologize if I'm not exactly rushing to say you're the ones being fair and impartial when you could fairly easily argue your points without having to make it seem like you're the only logical people being constantly hounded by wild, aggressive and illogical fanboys. You can't complain about hyperbole if you can't even keep it out of your own posts.

Nobody in this thread defending JL55 or Long have said they were untouchable, NONE. That is a fact, the only thing that anybody has said is that they are a valuable part of the team and it isn't a necessity to upgrade, rather a want and that they're not as bad as some imply.

 

[RaminExile]

I think both Long and Lauranaitis are a little better than some are giving credit for. They're better than being JAG's. Yes - they could be upgraded positions; but in reality its going to be tough to find a guy who can come in and do what either one of them does better than they do it - especially when you have more pressing needs to upgrade - so they're not likely to be upgraded any time soon.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I think both Long and Lauranaitis are a little better than some are giving credit for. They're better than being JAG's. Yes - they could be upgraded positions; but in reality its going to be tough to find a guy who can come in and do what either one of them does better than they do it - especially when you have more pressing needs to upgrade - so they're not likely to be upgraded any time soon.

I don't believe anyone here believes that they are JAGs.

And team needs don't influence player availability. For example, you don't pass on DE Joey Bosa, if available, on draft day because you have a greater need elsewhere.

 

[HometownBoy]

Sorry, but while I saw that some wanted the Rams to extend him, I didn't sense anyone that would be upset if they did not. Those very same posters didn't come close to defending him to to extent that Long and Laurinaitis get defended.

Here's some excerpts.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I'm so pissed reading some of these responses, I can't even post.

I really wonder if some fans know ANYTHING about football in general, and the CB position in particular.

And BTW, what the freak difference does it make if he smokes weed, or has fun on social media? So freaking what.

So freaking what. Does anybody remember when we had NO corners?

I don't explode often, but when I do, it's because I drink Dos Equis.

My apologies to anyone I offended.
God forbid.

IF he gets suspended? That's your argument? Really? Tru got busted for DUI. That's OK , I guess.

- must be getting old. Peace all.

Dude was a probowl alternate last year. He's legit. Rams coaches aren't stupid when it comes to defense...

I think there is a gross underestimation among NFL fans regarding how difficult it is to be an NFL corner.

Yeah, people are giving JJ way too much flack. Of course he gets burned a lot, who doesn't when you're pulling guys like Fitz consistently? He's still pretty damn good for who he draws and what he does. His off the field actions are completely superfluous until he gets into trouble for them, just being kind of a chore isn't exactly something worthy of being sent packing.

Not to mention the whole argument Jrry and Rmfnlt got into, with clips, screenshots and NFL.com videos. Something that hasn't yet happened in this thread. Call me dense, but I think the defense of JJ was a lot harsher than this threads defense of JL55.

 

[Zaphod]

I've merely pointed out that the responses made whenever JL55 or Long aren't praised and/or get any bit of criticism have not been consistent with other players on the team. And the redirection of any discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses has come from posters, such as yourself, that enter into hyperbole regarding whether or not these guys or their replacements have to be Hall of Famers or how easy they may or may not be to be replaced.

I think you're simply having a hard time only because it's more difficult to criticize players who are playing well. I mean, sure, no one is perfect. But JL's contract is no where near out of line with what he brings to our team.

It's pretty obvious how the coaches feel. They spend a first round pick on an OLB who still is no threat to even back up the second round pick currently occupying the MLB position. Speaking of the backup, they bring in competition every year for Dunbar and when he gets suspended for performance enhancing drugs, they only begrudgingly bring him back to assist with our ailing run defense. Last year they bring in Barron, a safety for help at OLB, and this year we have Ayers competing with him.

At what point do we admit that those are just big shoes to fill? I know William's loves to exercise the threat of an A gap blitz as a strategy, but I don't think we should be too worried about Laurinaitis' sacks or tackles for loss.

As a friend once told me, the better your defensive line, the less heroic your linebackers look.