Game tape review: Interior O-line

[BonifayRam]

Not one? I'm just messing with you man because you seem to have a good sense of humor. Notice that I gave you a thread winner rating above, right before busting your balls.
And yes, that was a payoff for allowing me to bust your balls. I can't keep track of all of the comments but I see Brown as a better pass blocker as at G, possibly do to his experience as a tackle.

Yep Kozan was the biggest but when compared to the 6-7 328 pound Havenstein, 6-4/330 Jamon Brown, 6-5 325 Cody Wichmann he is still sorta dinky

If you have the time I can take you back 2 yrs on my observations on Jamon Brown here in this forum. Most all of the below posts were back in 2015 season. @Limey must have a great working brain his recall is out of this world.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/rams-sign-all-their-draft-picks.37907/#post-574784
Both Todd Gurley & Jamon Brown signed their contracts with their left hands. Guess being left handed came in handy playing mostly OLT the last four yrs for Jamon Brown.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...eek-1-at-right-guard.39455/page-2#post-612076
Jamon Brown has two full seasons 2013/2014 (26 games) starting on the left side @ OLT. The fact may be Brown is just better & performs better on the left side.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...ending-on-the-left-side-pd.41161/#post-656433
I am of the opinion that we will see Jamon Brown starting in 2016 @ OLG & doing very well. JB's natural side is LEFT.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/has-havenstein-practiced-at-all-this-week.41225/#post-657578
I re-watched the 9ers game paying close attention to Jamon Brown's performance @ right OG post...... First let me say that Brown was very effective @ Left OG early. He seemed to be much quicker & thinks much less, another-thing is he would maintain his blocks much longer.

Now since flipping to Saffold's post @ ORG his play is just plain not good @ that right side. When you watch him he is usually the last OL'er to fire off, he lacks the intensity on pass blocking too but where the big difference is he just does not maintain his blocks & falls off quickly. ASAP! Boudreau needs to get Brown back on his natural playing LEFT side. They can pump Brown up and positive this or positive that but IMO Jamon Brown is the least effective out of the five @ ORG.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...e-as-he-looked-at-rg.40907/page-2#post-651099
Brown was flipped to the right side of the OL. Brown did have more than expected issues yesterday but he is what he is a rookie. Brown will either get better or he will see the bench & rookie Cody Wichmann will get his chance.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...ending-on-the-left-side-pd.41161/#post-656272
Rookie Brown who played much better on the left side was inserted next to GRob. No reason was given for this flip but I guessed it was due to Saffold very poor play @ OLG in TC & pre season. Saffold play did not improve much after being inserted into ORG post. Back to rookie Jamon Brown's game ...fact was Brown was doing very well @ OLG.

 

[BonifayRam]

I know you have been suggesting Brown at LG since he was drafted. Would like to see him there, but can't see McVay moving Saffold, so we might have to wait for Saffold to get injured. Probably not a long wait then...

Yes as from the above post I have been posting my observations on Jamon Brown's performance for long time. I have also did the same on the difference between JB play on the right side vs left side too. All I can do is watch the games recorded & re-watch with the equipment I have what JB is doing. From the body of work since the 2015 pre season. Its just my opinion JB is a better consistent OL'er when playing on the left side. Its as Simple as that.

What the facts are up to now is.... In 2015 rookie JB earn & won the Left OG starting post in his rookie season. His 2015 pre season was good @ the LG post. His first month of play @ LG regular season was better. At this point in time most all of us here in this forum were very happy with JB's performance as a rookie.During the bye, Boudreau flipped rookie JB over the the right side. What did we then observe & see ...a downward trend by JB began.

In 2016 JB remained in the RG post in pre season & it was not good.For some unknown reason Game 1 of regular season JB & Cody Wichmann entered into rotation @ RG. By week 2 Wichmann was the starter again as he was in the last half of 2015. JB was sent to the bench. Later Wichmann was injured & Donnal replaced Wichmann. Brown was starting @ RG when the season came to an end.

In 2017 in OTA's Havenstein was inserted as starter in RG.One would surmise that Kromer desired a better RG than Brown. Brown got a quick opportunity to play RT with GRob & JB won that battle. JB jumped into the RT post & ended up on the 1st team when OTA ended. Then when 2017 TC opened up JB was 1st team RT. Within a short period of time JB was moved again & inserted back into the same RG post where he has yet to succeed.

 

[Loyal]

I like Blythe trying out at RG if he's good doing that...Just don't let him hike the ball!:baghead:

 

[BonifayRam]

I like Blythe trying out at RG if he's good doing that...Just don't let him hike the ball!:baghead:

There is a reason that Austin Blythe has been called a center since his drafting ...Undersized. No length no mass. AB has played all 3 interior post though. The thing I like best about him he was a 4 yr starter @ IOWA. They say Blythe is an excellent outside zone blocker & great technician.Blythe was named as a Rimington Trophy finalist Never know he very well might get a heavy look @ RG.

 

[Jacobarch]

There is a reason that Austin Blythe has been called a center since his drafting ...Undersized. No length no mass. AB has played all 3 interior post though. The thing I like best about him he was a 4 yr starter @ IOWA. They say Blythe is an excellent outside zone blocker & great technician.Blythe was named as a Rimington Trophy finalist Never know he very well might get a heavy look @ RG.

People said the same thing about Greco, remember him? Undersized, short arms, not enough strength. He was one of the best Guards in the NFL when he played for Cleveland.
Not saying this is Blythe's path but physical traits often get in the way of some of the NFL's greatest talents. Coaches and Execs should know this by now.

 

[Soul Surfer]

Yep Kozan was the biggest but when compared to the 6-7 328 pound Havenstein, 6-4/330 Jamon Brown, 6-5 325 Cody Wichmann he is still sorta dinky

If you have the time I can take you back 2 yrs on my observations on Jamon Brown here in this forum. Most all of the below posts were back in 2015 season. @Limey must have a great working brain his recall is out of this world.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/rams-sign-all-their-draft-picks.37907/#post-574784
Both Todd Gurley & Jamon Brown signed their contracts with their left hands. Guess being left handed came in handy playing mostly OLT the last four yrs for Jamon Brown.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...eek-1-at-right-guard.39455/page-2#post-612076
Jamon Brown has two full seasons 2013/2014 (26 games) starting on the left side @ OLT. The fact may be Brown is just better & performs better on the left side.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...ending-on-the-left-side-pd.41161/#post-656433
I am of the opinion that we will see Jamon Brown starting in 2016 @ OLG & doing very well. JB's natural side is LEFT.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/has-havenstein-practiced-at-all-this-week.41225/#post-657578
I re-watched the 9ers game paying close attention to Jamon Brown's performance @ right OG post...... First let me say that Brown was very effective @ Left OG early. He seemed to be much quicker & thinks much less, another-thing is he would maintain his blocks much longer.

Now since flipping to Saffold's post @ ORG his play is just plain not good @ that right side. When you watch him he is usually the last OL'er to fire off, he lacks the intensity on pass blocking too but where the big difference is he just does not maintain his blocks & falls off quickly. ASAP! Boudreau needs to get Brown back on his natural playing LEFT side. They can pump Brown up and positive this or positive that but IMO Jamon Brown is the least effective out of the five @ ORG.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...e-as-he-looked-at-rg.40907/page-2#post-651099
Brown was flipped to the right side of the OL. Brown did have more than expected issues yesterday but he is what he is a rookie. Brown will either get better or he will see the bench & rookie Cody Wichmann will get his chance.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads...ending-on-the-left-side-pd.41161/#post-656272
Rookie Brown who played much better on the left side was inserted next to GRob. No reason was given for this flip but I guessed it was due to Saffold very poor play @ OLG in TC & pre season. Saffold play did not improve much after being inserted into ORG post. Back to rookie Jamon Brown's game ...fact was Brown was doing very well @ OLG.

I noticed Brown looked pretty good as well on the left side.
After they picked up Whitworth I was thinking that they might put Brown at Left Guard and Saffold at Right Guard to stagger the best players next to the ones that were not quite as good.
L to R;
Whitworth Brown Sullivan Saffold Havenstein ...
...would have made more sense to me.
I think Saffold's best position is Right Guard and Brown's is Left Guard.

Thanks for digging up the old posts there Bonifay. I am an O line aficionado as well.

 

[BonifayRam]

I noticed Brown looked pretty good as well on the left side.
After they picked up Whitworth I was thinking that they might put Brown at Left Guard and Saffold at Right Guard to stagger the best players next to the ones that were not quite as good.
L to R;
Whitworth Brown Sullivan Saffold Havenstein ...
...would have made more sense to me.
I think Saffold's best position is Right Guard and Brown's is Left Guard.

Thanks for digging up the old posts there Bonifay. I am an O line aficionado as well.

Your more than welcome, anytime.

It appears that center left OL is fine with McVay/Kromer. I have no ideal if Kromer still has desires to have Havenstein as his starting RG ...or RT? It was reported many times before July that Kromer wanted Havenstein....but something changed:shocking:......#1st -it was the new RT GRob implosion, then #2-last seasons late starting RT Andrew Donnal suffered an early TC knee injury, then #3- reserve about 2 wks ago reserve RT Pace Murphy suffered an left Elbow injury, then #4-reserve back up OG Jamon Brown steps up @ RT with less than desired results in pass protection. Ok now #5 Kromer inserts his RG back into RT starting post.

Never know last year @ this same time it was Rodger Saffold who was the Rams starting RT. Is Rodger next to get a try @ RT & then let Jamon Brown return to the LG post? In the best guesstimate as to what will happen the next few weeks in this matter will be the return to health of both Andre Donnal & Pace Murphy that may provide Kromer the opportunity to return to his original plan with Havenstein @ Right OG.

 

[Soul Surfer]

Fisher said so!!! lol

That was the kiss of death right there!

 

[shovelpass]

Some observations, obviously I'm no expert/etc so my assessment might be off. They are all running plays, I couldn't find/haven't looked for pass plays.

The only lineman to actually get good blocks on this play are Saffold and Sullivan. Whitworth's man beats him on the inside, Whitworth gets away with a hold. Hav gets a pass because his man takes himself out of the play, but he could barely get a hand on him, luckily the play was going in the opposite direction. It's looks like Brown is shifting to the outside and his man takes an inside angle, don't know if that was by design but he didn't stand a chance.

Both Whitworth and Brown push aside their first block and make it to the 2nd level. Hav and Higs whiff on their assignments.

Both Whitworth and Sully make it to 2nd level, Hav does a good job of holding off his man. Brown gets pushed back a little, but manages to hold the defender off, luckily the play went away from him. Higs gets destroyed by the defender, but a valiant effort and the player takes himself out. Woods keys in on the saftey, tries to help Higs and misses the LB. Gurley should've cut up.

I actually think this one is entirely on Gurley, he should've cut left instead of going right.. There's a crease between Whitworth and Saffold, Brown and Hav completely plow through the middle of the D. I think he got nervous because Higs man pushes him back, but Higs holds up. And if you look at Everett and Woods it looks like they're cutting off the backside rush, not lead blocking. That probably would'v gone for 6, I think maybe Gurley might still be shocked from last season.

Both Brown and Hav get beat off of the line, Brown inside and Hav outside but they hold the D off long enough for M. Brown to skate through. I think M. Brown does a good job of reading his blocks, if the initial block would've been cleaner he would've had more momentum to blow by Kupp's man. Kupp doesn't offer much on this block, but maybe he thought Brown would be going to the outside.

Based off on this clips, I'd say Brown's biggest challenge is defending the inside rush, and Havenstein still looks a little slow off of the edge.
The rest of the clips are backups and can be found here. https://giphy.com/channel/tgodfrey25

Let me know what you think.

 

[So Ram]

Mcvay likes to defer to game tape before he makes sweeping judgements on how players performed. It's amazing how much a careful play, pause, rewind, repeat reveals when you review each play until you see each players full part on each play.

I looked at our interior lineman. Our backups, since they played the bulk of the game. I came away with the following observations:

60 Eldrenkamp - played LG for a bit then bulk of the game at center until the last drive. He was very solid in both run and pass pro. Some good blocks springing runs but was beaten bad in one running play resulting in a 3 yard loss. His man cut inside and he couldn't get there quick enough to slow the defender down. Overall he doesn't have a lot of power but sound technique and no missed. Assignments. Was only beat once and otherwise has a very solid game!

66 Blythe played C for a bit and then the bulk of the game at RG until the last offensive possession. Real good blocks even to the 2 level springing Justin Davis on multiple occasions for big runs. Really quick and very sound in run game getting a block on the right guy then quickly getting second level blocks. A little push in run game but not a whole lot. But locks on well and uses his body text book perfect, to shield defender.

He did give up 1 big pass pressure due to picking up wrong man on stunt. Which looked like confusion in diagnosing who to pick up.

69 Wichmann. RG and then mainly LG. Lots and lots of push in run game even flattening lineman. Reminded me of Richie Incognito. Opened big holes for Justin Davis. He has a lot of work to do locking on and sustaining the block after initial engage. He had 3 pass pressures allowed. Ouch. All of which could have resulted in sacks. He has massive potential opening holes for Gurley but will be a liability in pass pro until he can figure out how to lock onto a guy to sustain a block.

Summary:
Personally I want to see Blythe at RG with the first team before preseason ends. The PFF ratings are accurate on him. They rated him as our highest rated player for the Dallas game. I think he's our primary interior backup if he doesn't beat out Brown. Elrenkamp also needs more look. When him and Blythe were in at C and RG the interior line was moving people and pass protecting perfectly for almost two quarters, albeit vs backup defenders.

Wichmann has huge run blocking potential but he is still too raw as a pass protector. I wonder if he can improve there.

Where is your break down on Jamon Brown.

 

[So Ram]

Some observations, obviously I'm no expert/etc so my assessment might be off. They are all running plays, I couldn't find/haven't looked for pass plays.

The only lineman to actually get good blocks on this play are Saffold and Sullivan. Whitworth's man beats him on the inside, Whitworth gets away with a hold. Hav gets a pass because his man takes himself out of the play, but he could barely get a hand on him, luckily the play was going in the opposite direction. It's looks like Brown is shifting to the outside and his man takes an inside angle, don't know if that was by design but he didn't stand a chance.

Both Whitworth and Brown push aside their first block and make it to the 2nd level. Hav and Higs whiff on their assignments.

Both Whitworth and Sully make it to 2nd level, Hav does a good job of holding off his man. Brown gets pushed back a little, but manages to hold the defender off, luckily the play went away from him. Higs gets destroyed by the defender, but a valiant effort and the player takes himself out. Woods keys in on the saftey, tries to help Higs and misses the LB. Gurley should've cut up.

I actually think this one is entirely on Gurley, he should've cut left instead of going right.. There's a crease between Whitworth and Saffold, Brown and Hav completely plow through the middle of the D. I think he got nervous because Higs man pushes him back, but Higs holds up. And if you look at Everett and Woods it looks like they're cutting off the backside rush, not lead blocking. That probably would'v gone for 6, I think maybe Gurley might still be shocked from last season.

Both Brown and Hav get beat off of the line, Brown inside and Hav outside but they hold the D off long enough for M. Brown to skate through. I think M. Brown does a good job of reading his blocks, if the initial block would've been cleaner he would've had more momentum to blow by Kupp's man. Kupp doesn't offer much on this block, but maybe he thought Brown would be going to the outside.

Based off on this clips, I'd say Brown's biggest challenge is defending the inside rush, and Havenstein still looks a little slow off of the edge.
The rest of the clips are backups and can be found here. https://giphy.com/channel/tgodfrey25

Let me know what you think.

That is an excellent breakdown of a few plays. Some of these clips seem from a further perspective. Thanks

 

[BonifayRam]

.............Based off on this clips, I'd say Brown's biggest challenge is defending the inside rush, and Havenstein still looks a little slow off of the edge.......Let me know what you think.

Excellent Job I enjoyed this:bow:. Your conclusion is right on target.

On Rob Havenstein you see why Kromer preferred to have him starting @ right OG. I still think IF a reserve OL'er can step up & demonstrate a better get off @ right OT, then Kromer can follow through on his original OL plans where Big Rob is inside & starting. However until them we will see Jamon Brown pathetically laboring once again.

Kromer got hit hard @ the OT position very early. First the total implosion of GRob @ RT & his quick departure. I beleive that Kromer had inklings that was a possibility & was not caught with his pants down. Then very early RT Andrew Donnal injured his knee & have been shelved ever-since. Then Pace Murphy injured his left elbow & just return to action last Saturday. Those three RT player events have interfered greatly with Kromer's right side plans.

He still has some options....hopefully Donnal will eventually get healthy if he will be IR'd. Once Pace Murphy gets healthy he could see some easing into action @ RT but I sure do not see him seeing any LT action with that weakened left elbow/arm. Darrell Williams looked much better @ LT than RT so I would not desire him seeing any time @ RT. Or Cody Wichmann steps up @ RG like he has the last 2 seasons & kicks Jamon Brown to the sideline.

 

[LACHAMP46]

View: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/898141362486378496

On Rob Havenstein you see why Kromer preferred to have him starting @ right OG. I still think IF a reserve OL'er can step up & demonstrate a better get off @ right OT, then Kromer can follow through on his original OL plans where Big Rob is inside & starting. However until them we will see Jamon Brown pathetically laboring once again.

Kromer got hit hard @ the OT position very early. First the total implosion of GRob @ RT & his quick departure.

Curious Boni....what the hell do you think is wrong with Donnal? And do you think he can shake whatever it is and be ready to play? I want to see Donnal get a chance to start somewhere....

What the hell do you think is wrong with Wichman?

 

[JIMERAMS]

Some observations, obviously I'm no expert/etc so my assessment might be off. They are all running plays, I couldn't find/haven't looked for pass plays.

The only lineman to actually get good blocks on this play are Saffold and Sullivan. Whitworth's man beats him on the inside, Whitworth gets away with a hold. Hav gets a pass because his man takes himself out of the play, but he could barely get a hand on him, luckily the play was going in the opposite direction. It's looks like Brown is shifting to the outside and his man takes an inside angle, don't know if that was by design but he didn't stand a chance.

Both Whitworth and Brown push aside their first block and make it to the 2nd level. Hav and Higs whiff on their assignments.

Both Whitworth and Sully make it to 2nd level, Hav does a good job of holding off his man. Brown gets pushed back a little, but manages to hold the defender off, luckily the play went away from him. Higs gets destroyed by the defender, but a valiant effort and the player takes himself out. Woods keys in on the saftey, tries to help Higs and misses the LB. Gurley should've cut up.

I actually think this one is entirely on Gurley, he should've cut left instead of going right.. There's a crease between Whitworth and Saffold, Brown and Hav completely plow through the middle of the D. I think he got nervous because Higs man pushes him back, but Higs holds up. And if you look at Everett and Woods it looks like they're cutting off the backside rush, not lead blocking. That probably would'v gone for 6, I think maybe Gurley might still be shocked from last season.

Both Brown and Hav get beat off of the line, Brown inside and Hav outside but they hold the D off long enough for M. Brown to skate through. I think M. Brown does a good job of reading his blocks, if the initial block would've been cleaner he would've had more momentum to blow by Kupp's man. Kupp doesn't offer much on this block, but maybe he thought Brown would be going to the outside.

Based off on this clips, I'd say Brown's biggest challenge is defending the inside rush, and Havenstein still looks a little slow off of the edge.
The rest of the clips are backups and can be found here. https://giphy.com/channel/tgodfrey25

Let me know what you think.

those last 2 clips HAV doesn't get beat at all im not sure what you are seeing? Gurley should have taken on the man outside on the last one Kup had his man boxed out and gurley turned right in to him.

 

[shovelpass]

those last 2 clips HAV doesn't get beat at all im not sure what you are seeing? Gurley should have taken on the man outside on the last one Kup had his man boxed out and gurley turned right in to him.

2nd to last clip: I was actually praising Hav. Read it again.

Last clip: you're right, I mistook Hav for Higs, I didn't see the man between Brown and Higs, yeah Hav does a good job there. It's Brown, not Gurley. I did say that Kupp probably thought the play was to the outside, if you look though the middle of the D is well blocked. Players are taught to follow their blocks, why bother trying to make a a man miss when you have lanes up the middle? But yes, he pretty much turned into the defender. Kupp also stops short and the defender takes an inside angle on him. If Kupp took the defender head on Brown could've cut up the field for a big gain, but that might be the plays design. If the play was designed to go outside it makes no sense to leave an unguarded defender out there. Just observations.

 

[Merlin]

On that first clip I think Whit's block was probably ok. My presumption is it was designed to bounce outside and when his man took himself out of the play he went with it. While it was poorly executed all over, the most glaring issue was the instant and severe penetration that Brown allowed. You just can't have that.

I'm actually surprised there weren't a cut or two on the OL after that game. And as to Brown, he's just been very disappointing to me this camp, I really expected him to flourish under this OL coach and system.

That said, there is still time for Kromer to shape these guys. And 3 preseason games left to go before the regular season. So I do think we (and I include myself here) need to be careful how much judgment we pass on these guys.

 

[shovelpass]

On that first clip I think Whit's block was probably ok. My presumption is it was designed to bounce outside and when his man took himself out of the play he went with it. While it was poorly executed all over, the most glaring issue was the instant and severe penetration that Brown allowed. You just can't have that.

I'm actually surprised there weren't a cut or two on the OL after that game. And as to Brown, he's just been very disappointing to me this camp, I really expected him to flourish under this OL coach and system.

That said, there is still time for Kromer to shape these guys. And 3 preseason games left to go before the regular season. So I do think we (and I include myself here) need to be careful how much judgment we pass on these guys.

I agree, had Brown not blown his assignment Gurley would've been far away from Whitworth's man. Yeah, hopefully either Brown can get it together or they can find someone who can.

 

[BonifayRam]

Curious Boni....what the hell do you think is wrong with Donnal? And do you think he can shake whatever it is and be ready to play? I want to see Donnal get a chance to start somewhere....What the hell do you think is wrong with Wichman?

Last I heard from McVay said that Donnal had tweaked his knee & it was thought that he would have been back to work by now.....guess that knee may be worse than first indicated. I would prefer that Donnal entrench himself in @ the RT post & let Kromer's plan of Havenstein working inside @ RG..... Jamon Brown could take up the important 6th OL'er position @ 3 posts (LG/RG/RT) like Donnal was mid season last season. Not a bad position for JB.

I have no info on Cody Wichmann other than he has been working on the 2nd team @ both OG posts. If Donnal is out much longer he is will have a ton of catch up work to do to play an important role in this OL.

 

[So Ram]

I agree, had Brown not blown his assignment Gurley would've been far away from Whitworth's man. Yeah, hopefully either Brown can get it together or they can find someone who can.

What about Copper Kupp dropping a pass on 2nd & 10 ? All 3 pass plays on Mannion first series Brown pass protection was solid .

 

[So Ram]

2nd to last clip: I was actually praising Hav. Read it again.

Last clip: you're right, I mistook Hav for Higs, I didn't see the man between Brown and Higs, yeah Hav does a good job there. It's Brown, not Gurley. I did say that Kupp probably thought the play was to the outside, if you look though the middle of the D is well blocked. Players are taught to follow their blocks, why bother trying to make a a man miss when you have lanes up the middle? But yes, he pretty much turned into the defender. Kupp also stops short and the defender takes an inside angle on him. If Kupp took the defender head on Brown could've cut up the field for a big gain, but that might be the plays design. If the play was designed to go outside it makes no sense to leave an unguarded defender out there. Just observations.

Was thinking you were bagging on Jamon Brown. Marshall said was a little indecisive there. But as he goes he will carry people with him. If he stays outside he has a chance to break it .

Sort of pisses me off Ram fans want to give Austin Blythe a pass. What a freaking crappy snap right after that on 2nd dwn. Making it 3rd & 35. Worse than a 3 yard loss because of a missed block.