Empty Sets

[RamWoodie]

Terrible pick to start the 2nd half, and while it wasnt a result of a tipped ball like the ones you mentioned, it was the result of a poor play design/call
Rams ran the ball great in 1st half and if McVay wanted to go deep they were perfectly set up for play action. Instead they show all their cards and Staff made a mistake.
Just awful all around.
I think Staff has been pretty darned good this year, made some 1st downs with his feet and some of his throws just make you shake your head that somebody could put a ball in such a tight spot
If anything, he's a victim of his own success, he makes them look so much better than what they are

I don't disagree. I think Stafford simply threw before he looked...and he knew it. The playcall was bad too!

 

[El Chapo Jr]

What pisses me off about that empty set shit is that the opening drive could have been used to crush the Steelers mentally. Can you imagine if we rammed it down their throats and scored? That would have killed any momentum they would have had. It also begs to question that if the Rams truly want a more physical team, we need to commit to punching teams in the mouth, especially when their run defense is as horrible as Pittsburgh's is. We played into their strength by going empty to open the drive.

 

[Ellard80]

What pisses me off about that empty set shit is that the opening drive could have been used to crush the Steelers mentally. Can you imagine if we rammed it down their throats and scored? That would have killed any momentum they would have had. It also begs to question that if the Rams truly want a more physical team, we need to commit to punching teams in the mouth, especially when their run defense is as horrible as Pittsburgh's is. We played into their strength by going empty to open the drive.

we ran the ball pretty effectively but still didn't score a lot of points for various reasons.

 

[Jacobarch]

we ran the ball pretty effectively but still didn't score a lot of points for various reasons.

Plenty of reasons for that. Penalties, false starts, drops, miscues, miss kicks, play calling, and some bad luck. The rams really shot themselves in the foot this game, and this game is going to the one that haunts them for the rest of the season.

 

[Merlin]

What pisses me off about that empty set shit is that the opening drive could have been used to crush the Steelers mentally. Can you imagine if we rammed it down their throats and scored? That would have killed any momentum they would have had. It also begs to question that if the Rams truly want a more physical team, we need to commit to punching teams in the mouth, especially when their run defense is as horrible as Pittsburgh's is. We played into their strength by going empty to open the drive.

Very true. But look how many opportunities they had to win yesterday...

If Higbee hauls in that pass instead of hearing footsteps we win.

If the kicker just hits that late field goal and the Steelers have to drive the length of the field we probably win.

If the refs don't completely fuck us with a ghost PI call on that third down where the defense earned a stop we win.

Tomlin had two weeks to fine tune his defense to nullify our advantages in this matchup and it put them into the game. For the rest it was the Rams executing like fuckheads and losing the game. And the Steelers are not a bad team, they're probably a better roster than us outside of QB but still they required a string of shit going their way through the entire game to keep us down and got it done.

It's unfortunate but if this team has the fight I think they do there is still room for them to win a bunch of games and still threaten for a wildcard. At least being in the chase brings enjoyment. I'm fine with all that because we're short on this roster as we've been talking about all offseason and through camp. But they play their asses off and compete above their heads usually because we have one of the best coaching staffs in the league and because they brought in a bunch of leaders and character this past offseason on top of what they already had.

 

[Ellard80]

Plenty of reasons for that. Penalties, false starts, drops, miscues, miss kicks, play calling, and some bad luck. The rams really shot themselves in the foot this game, and this game is going to the one that haunts them for the rest of the season.

yep... thats kind of my point

Just running the ball effectively isn't going solve everything.

 

[WestCoastRam]

Very true. But look how many opportunities they had to win yesterday...

If Higbee hauls in that pass instead of hearing footsteps we win.

If the kicker just hits that late field goal and the Steelers have to drive the length of the field we probably win.

If the refs don't completely fuck us with a ghost PI call on that third down where the defense earned a stop we win.

Tomlin had two weeks to fine tune his defense to nullify our advantages in this matchup and it put them into the game. For the rest it was the Rams executing like fuckheads and losing the game. And the Steelers are not a bad team, they're probably a better roster than us outside of QB but still they required a string of shit going their way through the entire game to keep us down and got it done.

It's unfortunate but if this team has the fight I think they do there is still room for them to win a bunch of games and still threaten for a wildcard. At least being in the chase brings enjoyment. I'm fine with all that because we're short on this roster as we've been talking about all offseason and through camp. But they play their asses off and compete above their heads usually because we have one of the best coaching staffs in the league and because they brought in a bunch of leaders and character this past offseason on top of what they already had.

Playing teams coming off byes is gonna be an issue for us this year. Doesn't Dallas come off one this week too? Don't we have someone else like that or a couple teams coming off Thurs?

 

[El Chapo Jr]

we ran the ball pretty effectively but still didn't score a lot of points for various reasons.

Wish we leaned on it a bit more. I know there are other plays that if made, would have helped, but for once, I want McVay to apply a smash mouth approach vs a team who is weak against the run.

 

[Merlin]

Playing teams coming off byes is gonna be an issue for us this year. Doesn't Dallas come off one this week too? Don't we have someone else like that or a couple teams coming off Thurs?

Without a doubt. And when it's really nasty is when you face a good coach. Tomlin for example with two weeks to nuke your scheme and prep his defense means you're gonna be in Pittsburgh's kind of game. The Rams having FOUR of those is fucking ridiculous.

NFL didn't have the Rams on their playoffs hopeful list this season, plain and simple. They knew it was a reload so the Rams have to fight the schedule plus the refs with an undermanned roster. I am hoping we still make the playoffs anyway, and I'll tell you right now that if they can get this OL pass protecting at a higher level we remain one of the best darkhorses around.

 

[WestCoastRam]

Without a doubt. And when it's really nasty is when you face a good coach. Tomlin for example with two weeks to nuke your scheme and prep his defense means you're gonna be in Pittsburgh's kind of game. The Rams having FOUR of those is fucking ridiculous.

NFL didn't have the Rams on their playoffs hopeful list this season, plain and simple. They knew it was a reload so the Rams have to fight the schedule plus the refs with an undermanned roster. I am hoping we still make the playoffs anyway, and I'll tell you right now that if they can get this OL pass protecting at a higher level we remain one of the best darkhorses around.

Speaking of getting nuked... I'm gonna share an opinion that's unpopular for sure. I don't believe this team is going anywhere in the playoffs so I'm actually sorta, kinda, not-really, but sorta-maybe, really okay with losing to the Steelers. And losing some more games this season as long as the Rams are competitive and don't lay down as that will improve our draft standings and give us the maximum amount of resources to have one last go in 2024 before the whole thing gets blown up.

If this team was different, had a young QB, a young Donald, Kupp, I would certainly be thinking otherwise regardless of the talent surrounding them.

 

[Merlin]

I'm pissed about this loss. This one, just like Cincy, really got under my skin. But I do agree philosophically that we're still ahead of where I figured they'd be. Just sucks to see a winnable game get away from them when so many different opportunities were there to get the dub.

Kicker is a significant problem. If you want to win games vs good defenses you gotta play field position and come away with points when they're available. But overall this one came down to poor execution on both sides of the ball IMO. Players just need to use it as fuel and go upset Dallas though and I'll feel a lot better about things.

 

[Oregonram]

What pisses me off about that empty set shit is that the opening drive could have been used to crush the Steelers mentally. Can you imagine if we rammed it down their throats and scored? That would have killed any momentum they would have had. It also begs to question that if the Rams truly want a more physical team, we need to commit to punching teams in the mouth, especially when their run defense is as horrible as Pittsburgh's is. We played into their strength by going empty to open the drive.

I'm starting to think that Sean doesn't think about the other teams weakness on defense..I think he just sees his guy's possibilities..and thought starting the 3rd quarter...hey we can step on their jugular. I would have thought with the lead, he would have run clock and ran Freeman at their DL and at least tired them a bit....I am trying to understand our coach.

 

[Oregonram]

Empty sets are used a lot in most levels of football.

Let me break down some ideas for you.

Why did Mcvay do a dumb thing and start with an empty set at the beginning of the half?
Likely he did this because we had been running the ball effectively so PITT came out in a base defense.
One concept and probably the most heavily used reason for empty sets is it makes linebackers and safeties who are in the game to stop the run cover in space. In theory it worked because you had Watt out covering instead of rushing... but of course it went completely wrong because of a bad read and good call by the Steelers.
It's a cat and mouse game.. I come out in base... so I spread you out... you come out in dime... so I run the ball etc.

Other reasons why teams run empty.

It makes the defense have difficulty disguising coverages.
It stretches the zones in the defense.
It accentuates speed advantages.
If you have a fast QB it creates problems.
It makes the defense have to cover two quick slot threats.

IF anyone has some data about our empty sets id like to see it. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

How effective are we in empty sets? We definitely remember the bad plays but forget the good ones - i think pukas first long gain was out of empty.

Empty sets are meant to get the ball out quickly - when we see Stafford holding the ball for a long time in an empty set its usually bad...

Thank you for the thoughtful data...I think the only speed advantage is Tutu..everyone else are great rout runners, not burners though

 

[Ellard80]

I'm starting to think that Sean doesn't think about the other teams weakness on defense..I think he just sees his guy's possibilities..and thought starting the 3rd quarter...hey we can step on their jugular. I would have thought with the lead, he would have run clock and ran Freeman at their DL and at least tired them a bit....I am trying to understand our coach.

yeah good thought process

empty sets are typically not shot plays however, they are more for short yardage chunks where the ball comes out quick.

of course sometimes they do lead to big plays.

Your shot plays of course typically come out of other formations = typically ones meant to look like runs.

 

[Tano]

On the interception, if Stafford had seen Watt leave his man, then we had a completely wide open Nacua that could have gone for a TD or be run down way down the field. If If and another If - so many ifs in this damn game from week to week.

 

[Rmfnlt]

I would like an educated conversation.

Sorry, I'm going to have to recuse myself. LOL

 

[Merlin]

I'm starting to think that Sean doesn't think about the other teams weakness on defense..I think he just sees his guy's possibilities..and thought starting the 3rd quarter...hey we can step on their jugular. I would have thought with the lead, he would have run clock and ran Freeman at their DL and at least tired them a bit....I am trying to understand our coach.

I think he knew we weren't gonna go down the field with the run game and decided to bet on Stafford. For the record I despite empty sets. But when they are executed well they can be a key part of an offense. Problem is the Rams cannot execute empty sets, they spring too many free runs to the QB to do that.

Top criticisms for McVay thus far this year to my eye at least...

1. Teams are all over us pre-snap. Our hots are too often anticipated, and Stafford has not been as sharp as usual seeing threats. I suspect there are some tells via down/distance/formation too, though that is all opinion on my part.

2. We can't run screens for shit. Way teams approach us we should be able to screen them to good effect.

3. "Regular season Stafford" is different from "Postseason I smell a ring Stafford." I understand why he trusts him implicitly but he has to find a way to give him a complementary run game. Problem is once again, year after year after fucking year, he is stuck with JAG backfield options. RB quality is hurting this offense.

4. Free runs at the QB are something that aren't really tracked via stats but they're something the Rams feel like they allow too much. I think some of this is Stafford. Some of it is scheme and prep. And some of it is the OL not being good enough in consistency. But they need to cut that shit in half at the very least or Stafford won't make it through the season.

 

[KJD_Ram]

this game is going to the one that haunts them

just like the Stealer game we lost a few years back that cost us a playoff spot on the absolute Bullshit strip sack fumble return TD that was clearly an incomplete pass...fuck Shittsburgh

 

[WestCoastRam]

Thank you for the thoughtful data...I think the only speed advantage is Tutu..everyone else are great rout runners, not burners though

Perhaps the author meant "quick" and not "speed." You're not running 7 step drops out of empty (unless you're Martz).

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

When Mcvay first burst onto the scene the Rams would use the same formation to run or pass. No defense could work out what they were doing most of the time. 2017 Gurley just ran out of gas in the playoffs and the offense stalled against the falcons because of it.

In 2018 the Bears used the jail break pass rush and McVay couldn't work out how to counter it. Then of course bellyfat used it in the superbowl and McVay was clueless. Not sure why seeing the bears gave him a preview. Even then if Gurley was healthy the rams probably win. And no Kupp meaning the Rams were relying on stone hands cooks to make clutch plays.

Then 2019 came and his offense looked different, like it does now. He wanted the qb to take more control. Goff couldn't do it the way Mcvay wanted so he traded for Stafford who could do it. That is, make something out of nothing.

Now Stafford is not making much happen when nothing is there. That's why drives stall so often. Probably because he doesn't have enough time.

Mcvay has to fix it.

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