Demoff: Move to LA in the works since summer of 2013

[LesBaker]

I disagree Les, the formal rejection from the CVC was on July 6, 2013. That's about the time they started looking at land and I'm sure they were under the impression that the CVC would reject the 700 million dollar upgrades the Rams requested, however, if the CVC went along with those upgrades thus making the Dome a top tier stadium, the Rams would have had no recourse but to stay! That's it!

Dome talks head to new stage after Rams' proposal is rejected

• By David Hunn dhunn@post-dispatch.com 314-340-8121
  
• Jul 6, 2013

ST. LOUIS • Regional leaders have officially closed the door on a $700 million upgrade to the Edward Jones Dome, ushering in a new stage of negotiations with the St. Louis Rams.

This week, officials charged with running the Dome formally rejected — as long expected — the Rams’ proposal to overhaul the football stadium.

Kathleen “Kitty” Ratcliffe, president of the St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission, sent a letter to the Rams to say the agency is “not in a position” to pay for a $700 million renovation.

In a separate letter, Jim Shrewsbury, chairman of the Regional Convention and Sports Complex Authority, said it would not be “prudent” to make the improvements recommended by arbitrators earlier this year.

“Basically, what we’re saying is we’re not going to be bound by that arbitration,” Shrewsbury said in an interview Friday. “It is not going to force us to upgrade the stadium.”

“We simply don’t have the money to do it.”

The end of arbitration, however, opens the door for a new round of negotiations.

Shrewsbury said Gov. Jay Nixon had asked to take the lead on this round — one nearly certain to include talk of a new stadium, rather than trying to upgrade the Dome. Area officials have already begun scouting for potential new sites.

Nixon’s office emailed a statement late Friday afternoon saying, “I look forward to hearing from the Rams about their long-term plans.”

The Sports Complex Authority owns the dome. The CVC operates it. Both bodies are run by representatives of the city, county and state, which combined to fund the Dome’s construction.The lease with the CVC binds the Rams to stay at the Dome for two more football seasons. But this week’s letters mean that, if nothing changes, the team could leave St. Louis after the 2014 season, or go on a year-to-year lease.

Kevin Demoff, the Rams’ chief operating officer, did not return messages seeking comment.

A clause in the Rams’ contract required the CVC to provide the team with a “first-tier” stadium — in the top eight of 32 National Football League teams — by 2005, and again by 2015.

In 2012, the two sides began trading proposals for the 2015 marker.

The CVC’s final plan featured a new glass addition, outdoor terraces and a four-sided center-hung scoreboard. It estimated the total cost at under $200 million and called for the Rams to kick in half.

The Rams proposed tearing down half the Dome, extending it across Broadway and building a large glass wall. The team also wanted to add a sliding roof, reconfigured seating, two end zone “party platforms” and new, larger entrances. CVC contractors estimated the plan would cost at least $700 million.

Both sides rejected opposing proposals. Arbitrators took up the case in January and ruled in February that the Rams’ proposal was the only way to make the building first-tier.

CVC leaders immediately said it was unlikely the state, St. Louis and St. Louis County would agree to such an expense. The three are still paying a combined $24 million a year toward the bonds taken out to build the Dome.

Shrewsbury, head of the sports complex authority, said Friday that he wasn’t sure if Nixon had started talks with Rams owner Stan Kroenke. But nobody else, Shrewsbury said, is doing anything.

“If anything’s going on, it’s between Stan Kroenke and the governor,” Shrewsbury said. “This thing is still fluid.”

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_483935ed-ddd2-57a4-8cb6-24a1bdf37d1b.html

By this time things were already in the works, the land had been scoped out. The meeting with Spanos was well prior to the rejection of the upgrades.

 

[LesBaker]

Okay and I never had a dog in this fight either, however, I disagree. I do believe they wanted Los Angeles, however, if the CVC went along with the upgrades per the article, the Rams would have never been able to leave and IMO, you never, ever give up sure thing for a possibility.

The CVC should be hung in effigy....They are the ones that could have kept the Rams in St. Louis and they blew it and now they come back that the dome needs those type of upgrades to attract more businesses? Sorry, that is where the deception has been for a numbers of years.

FYI there is NO WAY any city would have agreed to what the Rams proposed. No how no way. Now that we know what we know (which isn't everything I'm sure) nothing was keeping the Rams in STL. Blaming the city is like yelling at the clouds. How can they possibly in your opinion be the source of deception for a number of years? I don't understand that.

 

[tahoe]

Okay and I never had a dog in this fight either, however, I disagree. I do believe they wanted Los Angeles, however, if the CVC went along with the upgrades per the article, the Rams would have never been able to leave and IMO, you never, ever give up sure thing for a possibility.

The CVC should be hung in effigy....They are the ones that could have kept the Rams in St. Louis and they blew it and now they come back that the dome needs those type of upgrades to attract more businesses? Sorry, that is where the deception has been for a numbers of years.

This is so false its not even funny! The Rams intentionally made the proposal impossible for the CVC to except. Not only would the city have to foot the entire $700 million estimated bill that would probably be higher, but the would have had to shut down the dome for 3 years costing the city another $400 million. So basically they told the city that they needed to foot a $1.1 billion bill all for a 10 year lease and then the rams would just leave anyways.

 

[Merlin]

By this time things were already in the works, the land had been scoped out. The meeting with Spanos was well prior to the rejection of the upgrades.

They could have scoped out all the land they wanted, it wouldn't have mattered had the CVC met the requirements of the contract. The Rams would have been locked up.

Not trying to be a jerk, or dredge up more hard feelings here, either. Just pointing out that the local elements in STL are not without blame and they need to be included in these discussions as part of the whole thing. They stole the team from LA with a sweetheart stadium deal. They lost the team because they chose not to meet the requirements of that deal.

It shouldn't have been a surprise, either. Kroenke didn't get rich by accident. Remember him offering to sign off on his option to allow Khan to purchase the team if he was paid off? Look at his history of business associations, the dude is a shark in a business suit. He just took his possession and stored it in a new spot and tripled its value, it is what it is man. CVC played hardball and lost.

 

[den-the-coach]

By this time things were already in the works, the land had been scoped out. The meeting with Spanos was well prior to the rejection of the upgrades.

Les...Les...Les....They starting looking at land on July 15, 2013 that is what Demoff stated and the CVC said no to the demands on July 6, 2013.

 

[fearsomefour]

They could have scoped out all the land they wanted, it wouldn't have mattered had the CVC met the requirements of the contract. The Rams would have been locked up.

Not trying to be a jerk, or dredge up more hard feelings here, either. Just pointing out that the local elements in STL are not without blame and they need to be included in these discussions as part of the whole thing. They stole the team from LA with a sweetheart stadium deal. They lost the team because they chose not to meet the requirements of that deal.

It shouldn't have been a surprise, either. Kroenke didn't get rich by accident. Remember him offering to sign off on his option to allow Khan to purchase the team if he was paid off? Look at his history of business associations, the dude is a shark in a business suit. He just took his possession and stored it in a new spot and tripled its value, it is what it is man. CVC played hardball and lost.

That about sums it up..

 

[den-the-coach]

This is so false its not even funny! The Rams intentionally made the proposal impossible for the CVC to except. Not only would the city have to foot the entire $700 million estimated bill that would probably be higher, but the would have had to shut down the dome for 3 years costing the city another $400 million. So basically they told the city that they needed to foot a $1.1 billion bill all for a 10 year lease and then the rams would just leave anyways.

And CVC is now communicating that they need to shut the dome down for upgrades, have they not? Look, in the end, the dome, not any other venue had to be a top tier stadium or the Rams had the right to relocate. The Rams gave them a plan that would upgrade the dome to a top tier stadium, they refused to so.

Now, was fair or equitable? No, but that's business and the fact that the CVC came back with 200 million in upgraded with the Rams footing 90% of that cost was also insulting.

 

[den-the-coach]

FYI there is NO WAY any city would have agreed to what the Rams proposed. No how no way. Now that we know what we know (which isn't everything I'm sure) nothing was keeping the Rams in STL. Blaming the city is like yelling at the clouds. How can they possibly in your opinion be the source of deception for a number of years? I don't understand that.

Because the CVC never reached out to ESK to work out a compromise. They knew about the clause and they felt there was no way the Rams would relocate. I'm just trying to communicate that there is plenty of blame to go around and you can't just keeping using ESK and Demoff a whipping boys, it's more complicated and not holding the CVC somewhat accountable too, is just, unjust!

 

[LesBaker]

Because the CVC never reached out to ESK to work out a compromise. They knew about the clause and they felt there was no way the Rams would relocate. I'm just trying to communicate that there is plenty of blame to go around and you can't just keeping using ESK and Demoff a whipping boys, it's more complicated and not holding the CVC somewhat accountable too, is just, unjust!

Kroenke didn't return calls and never met with anyone, at least that's what I heard.

As far as the date that they started to look at land being 7/15/13 and the CVC rejecting the demands on 6/6/13 doesn't tell us anything. Especially since the Rams submitted the demands mid 2012. My guess is that they were looking before that date. Just because Kroenke called Demoff around that 7/15 date doesn't mean they weren't looking.

Either way, this was a dirty deal and it lacked any shred of decency, decorum and professionalism to shit on the fans and city in their relo papers.

Now we know why they fought so hard to keep them private and not made public, they were worried about reprisals.

 

[den-the-coach]

Either way, this was a dirty deal and it lacked any shred of decency, decorum and professionalism to crap on the fans and city in their relo papers.

Now we know why they fought so hard to keep them private and not made public, they were worried about reprisals.

Fair enough Les and again I'm not doubting that the end game from when he purchased total control might have been Los Angeles, however, IMO, I don't think the CVC had ever done the fine people of St. Louis any favors over the years and the fact they just came back with they might need to upgrade the dome with more natural lighting and shut it down for a while to attract more high profile conferences seems to me they stabbed the people in the front not the back!

 

[bubbaramfan]

I continue to be baffled that folks from St. Louis are not as angry at their city officials and the Task Force as they are at Kroenke. They KNEW the Rams were leaving and continued act like they could keep the Rams in St. Louis. The RSA. CVC. Gov, Nixon and the Task Force ALL were instrumental in the Rams leaving. It could all have been avoided had the RSA honored the lease they signed. After spending 16 mil and stringing along fans for over a year when they knew damn well the Rams were going to leave anyway would piss me off if I lived in St. lLouis.

 

[LesBaker]

Because the CVC never reached out to ESK to work out a compromise. They knew about the clause and they felt there was no way the Rams would relocate. I'm just trying to communicate that there is plenty of blame to go around and you can't just keeping using ESK and Demoff a whipping boys, it's more complicated and not holding the CVC somewhat accountable too, is just, unjust!

That's a leap in logic I can't take Den, we just don't know how they felt about the Rams. We do know the Gov. and I think some other people tried to get in touch with Kroenke and he shut them out. He was leaving no matter what. Despite what he said and despite what Demoff said. They lied. And like a few people have said in just this thread it doesn't sit right that they lied then told the city and the fans to go fuck themselves.

The line about anyone signing onto the stadium in STL was the road to financial ruin was such over the top hyperbole I'm surprised it didn't start an NFL meme.

I'm not proclaiming anyone is innocent here, I'm just speaking my mind.

 

[DaveFan'51]

They lied. And like a few people have said in just this thread it doesn't sit right that they lied then told the city and the fans to go freak themselves.

I've said it before, but it bares repeating! Demoff stated that they, the Rams where told, in 2013/14. " You can not mention your intentions until 2015 By the League offices!!" So I, personally, can't call them Liar's!!

 

[FrankenRam]

They could have scoped out all the land they wanted, it wouldn't have mattered had the CVC met the requirements of the contract. The Rams would have been locked up.

Not trying to be a jerk, or dredge up more hard feelings here, either. Just pointing out that the local elements in STL are not without blame and they need to be included in these discussions as part of the whole thing. They stole the team from LA with a sweetheart stadium deal. They lost the team because they chose not to meet the requirements of that deal.

It shouldn't have been a surprise, either. Kroenke didn't get rich by accident. Remember him offering to sign off on his option to allow Khan to purchase the team if he was paid off? Look at his history of business associations, the dude is a shark in a business suit. He just took his possession and stored it in a new spot and tripled its value, it is what it is man. CVC played hardball and lost.

That's one very LA-centric way of looking at it.

I'm a STL resident and don't harbor any ill will towards Demoff for 'lying' the way he did. It truly was just business for him. He had no choice...assuming he liked his job and wanted to keep it.

But.....his boss is an entirely different matter. IMO, he made up his mind to move the team back to LA the minute he became aware of just how much the team's value would increase if he did so. It may have taken longer if STL had mortgaged it's future and attempted to live up to the ridiculously obscene agreement it originally signed to get the Rams from LA to STL, but you'll never convince me that Kroenke ever had any intention of staying in STL once the franchise value if in LA was determined.

I think that's why he kinda waited to the last minute to exercise his right of first refusal to take control of the team when the kids put it up for sale, and for a time it appeared Khan was going to buy it. IMO, he didn't decide to exercise that right until the franchise value in LA was determined. And from that moment, it was destined he would move the team back. It may have taken longer than it did if STL had kept up The Ed, but he would have found a way to do it one way or another.

It's also why he turned into The Silent One, and used Demoff to put the public spin on things.

And did I read somebody else actually said....'Blame the NFL, not the Rams'. Seriously?!?! The RAMS make the decision to move...the NFL just didn't let them as soon as the team originally requested. But we should blame the NFL for the team's desire. Good grief....you have absolutely got to be kidding me.

 

[tahoe]

Even with the stupid top tier clause it didn't give them the right to relocate it gave them the right to play in another facility. If the nfl had actually abided by their own bylaws the rams wouldn't have qualified to be able to relocate. There are only 2 or 3 owners that would have relocated the Rams out of St Louis because most of them actually care about their fan bases. We just got unlucky to have a horrible owner that only cares about greed. Georgia's kids wanted to only sell the team to someone that wouldn't move the team, Georgia let the top tier clause go the first time it came around.

 

[drasconis]

Tahoo and Les it is just time to let it go guys, not saying you aren't right to be mad...but the debate isn't going to change anything for anyone. To some SK will be the guy who got the Rams back to LA - and at the end of the day it isn't going to matter the mean or methods - he will be a "good" guy to them for it (and that is human nature). For others SK is the guy who turned his back on his community, doing whatever he could, however he could, to make a buck.

The team is moving, it won't change. The facts at this point won't change anything, everyones views of them are pretty locked in.

It sucks for you, it sucked for me, it sucked for lots of others. But you are fighting a war that won't be and can't be won. I recommend moving on - it is what I did, and I am feeling better overall about it (Still hate SK, just not losing sleep over it). still haven't decided if I am just going to have favorite players/coaches or if I will adopt a new team. I said it in my goodbye over it, nota rams fan anymore. Do I still lurk around the board, yeah probably too much. I find it a good source of general NFL knowledge and discussion (the FA discussion the other day was excellent), if I pipe in on a thread I try to keep purely about the nfl in general or other teams or FA, etc.. I avoid getting into the Rams stuff where my feelings may show or come out. I guess I have become one of those other teams visiting fans to this page - so follow the rules of that.

If you are staying rams fans then got to move on or else you will just get resentful and that isn't a good place to be.

They are your feelings though, so please don't take it as if I am saying you are wrong to have them or shouldn't have them.

 

[Angry Ram]

So the rest of the league doesn't care. If the NFL went and trashed the city from the get go, that would make fans upset around the league. Instead they pretend like they care, point out flaws, and then say it couldn't get done. What happens? A few weeks later and the rest of the fan bases don't care at all. People kept insisting that fans would revolt against the NFL, but they didn't, they won't. The NFL knew what they were doing, not their first rodeo.

It still doesn't excuse the fact they lied to their own fans. Stan, KD. Both of them did. Hell the only one who didn't lie was Grubman, who actually said the STL plan would fall short. It's one thing to keep it b/w CVC or RSA or w/e, another entirely to treat your fans that way.

Why would fans of other teams care in the 1st place? They have no worries except their own team. Life goes on for them. I also don't take fan "threats" seriously. Fans also boo the hell out of Roger Goodell during the draft. Then right he goes "the draft has started" all you hear is wild cheers.

 

[RamFan503]

Kroenke didn't return calls and never met with anyone, at least that's what I heard.

As far as the date that they started to look at land being 7/15/13 and the CVC rejecting the demands on 6/6/13 doesn't tell us anything. Especially since the Rams submitted the demands mid 2012. My guess is that they were looking before that date. Just because Kroenke called Demoff around that 7/15 date doesn't mean they weren't looking.

Either way, this was a dirty deal and it lacked any shred of decency, decorum and professionalism to crap on the fans and city in their relo papers.

Now we know why they fought so hard to keep them private and not made public, they were worried about reprisals.

There seems to be a want to ignore that the Rams already waived the top tier status in 2005 with a condition that by 2012 there would be proposals laid out by the CVC on how to get the Dome to top tier status. So the CVC failed to live up to the clause in 2005 and living up to that clause then would have no doubt made the 2015 deadline not only easier to obtain but would have shown good faith efforts on behalf of the CVC/RSA. They didn't do anything and instead put forth an eye rolling proposal that would have done virtually nothing to bring the Dome into the modern era of the NFL.

In doing so, the CVC/RSA could have very likely set the ball in motion for Stan to look for a new site. I am quite certain Stan has ALWAYS known how much more the team would be worth in LA. The thought that he suddenly realized that in 2010 or later is to me kind of ridiculous. I also find it at odds with reality that Stan was planning on moving back in 2010 when he bought controlling interest as he IMO no doubt knew the Hollywood Park and adjacent 60+ acres existed and had already been looked at as a potential LA NFL stadium site. He would have looked at that property and others back then if that was the case. It appears obvious, it wasn't until AFTER the CVC/RSA officially declined to accept the renovation OR offer a counter that Stan went and looked at the property that was clearly already on his radar.

Cause and effect is what I see here. The CVC/RSA had previously according to some reports, told the Rams to take a hike and they weren't going to perform meaningful renovations on the Dome going back to 2005. During the next 7 years, they essentially did nothing to establish a belief that they would hold up or even come close to holding up their end of the deal. Instead, they were telling Stan that he couldn't have a top notch facility - even if it was a new one. Sorry but the new facility that went from Stan not having to pony up for a top tier stadium to having to fund $700+ million AND any over runs yet still wouldn't be capable of housing Superbowls, AND he wouldn't own, AND would be mid level at opening was a non-starter IMO.

And still there was every chance the NFL owners would side with Spanos/Davis. So what do you do as an owner? You make the strongest case you can for relocation. In your opinion, that meant shitting on the fans and the city. On the flip side, that meant painting a grim economic picture that was more about business and the future of his team and investment. If I am from STL I take great offense to that. If I am not, I just don't. He was going to make his strongest case - period.

That's a leap in logic I can't take Den, we just don't know how they felt about the Rams. We do know the Gov. and I think some other people tried to get in touch with Kroenke and he shut them out. He was leaving no matter what. Despite what he said and despite what Demoff said. They lied. And like a few people have said in just this thread it doesn't sit right that they lied then told the city and the fans to go freak themselves.

The line about anyone signing onto the stadium in STL was the road to financial ruin was such over the top hyperbole I'm surprised it didn't start an NFL meme.

I'm not proclaiming anyone is innocent here, I'm just speaking my mind.

I'm not sure you or anyone else here is in a position to state that his ruin comment was inaccurate. Sorry but spending hundreds of millions of dollars on ZERO equity doesn't spell sound financial move to me. And guys like Stan don't invest to lose money. In fact doing so could very well jeopardize his ability to make the many other deals he makes on a more regular basis.

You are expecting him to spend essentially the same as he spent on one of the largest operating cattle and farming ranches in America and not own anything after doing so. You really think owning only the Rams team in STL even comes close to these kinds of deals? Frankly, if he stayed in STL under the deal that was offered and between his original 40% and then the amount he paid to take controlling interest, he would have paid more for the Rams than the franchise would be worth. Then you add in the amount he has to pay for maintenance of the new stadium, salaries for players, coaches, trainers, staff, etc and by my estimate, the Rams would be the lowest yielding team in the NFL and possibly even a money loser.

That's one very LA-centric way of looking at it.

I'm a STL resident and don't harbor any ill will towards Demoff for 'lying' the way he did. It truly was just business for him. He had no choice...assuming he liked his job and wanted to keep it.

But.....his boss is an entirely different matter. IMO, he made up his mind to move the team back to LA the minute he became aware of just how much the team's value would increase if he did so. It may have taken longer if STL had mortgaged it's future and attempted to live up to the ridiculously obscene agreement it originally signed to get the Rams from LA to STL, but you'll never convince me that Kroenke ever had any intention of staying in STL once the franchise value if in LA was determined.

I think that's why he kinda waited to the last minute to exercise his right of first refusal to take control of the team when the kids put it up for sale, and for a time it appeared Khan was going to buy it. IMO, he didn't decide to exercise that right until the franchise value in LA was determined. And from that moment, it was destined he would move the team back. It may have taken longer than it did if STL had kept up The Ed, but he would have found a way to do it one way or another.

It's also why he turned into The Silent One, and used Demoff to put the public spin on things.

And did I read somebody else actually said....'Blame the NFL, not the Rams'. Seriously?!?! The RAMS make the decision to move...the NFL just didn't let them as soon as the team originally requested. But we should blame the NFL for the team's desire. Good grief....you have absolutely got to be kidding me.

That may be a LA centric way of looking at things but it is to be expected by many fans that wanted the Rams back in LA.

That being said, I like your take on Demoff. he had a job to do and I think really, he needs to be taken out of the equation when talking about what went down. I honestly don't know what people expected him to say.

The rest though.... It is hard to say when Stan started thinking about moving the Rams back to LA. I have to think that a guy like him has known for many years that the Rams would be worth far more in LA. The timing actually really fits in with the CVC officially refusing to do anything about the stadium issue as to when Stan starts looking for land in LA in earnest. He had to know that property existed yet he had never really looked at it? He gets so excited when he finally does look at it that he wakes up KD to excitedly tell him about it?

That doesn't say to me that he was planning this as far back as 2010. What it tells me is that once he had mentally moved on from believing he was going to get a good deal done in STL, he locked into that property and it would have taken quite the deal to move him off that spot. He makes huge deals all the time. I'm thinking as soon as that call was made to KD, STL was fading into his rear view mirror. But it doesn't sound like - with all that is coming out now - that he even really was going there unless nothing was happening in STL. And as it appears at the time - nothing was.

I didn't even want the Rams to move. But I get why they did it. I also get why the fans of the St Louis Rams are pissed. I would be too. But like what has already been said, wagging our fingers at Stan and KD or doing it on a Rams board that is not and has never been based in St Louis or LA and has always been site neutral, is fruitless and not what I believe most of us are here for.

 

[RamFan503]

Even with the stupid top tier clause it didn't give them the right to relocate it gave them the right to play in another facility. If the nfl had actually abided by their own bylaws the rams wouldn't have qualified to be able to relocate. There are only 2 or 3 owners that would have relocated the Rams out of St Louis because most of them actually care about their fan bases. We just got unlucky to have a horrible owner that only cares about greed. Georgia's kids wanted to only sell the team to someone that wouldn't move the team, Georgia let the top tier clause go the first time it came around.

Not sure but by my recollection is that the deal worked out in 2005 after the CVC did not fulfill the top tier status was that relocation was specifically included. It may have even been in the original lease. The NFL guidelines might be a different story.

Georgia didn't simply let the clause go. They carefully negotiated requirements that the CVC needed to meet in 2012 in order to meet the 2015 deadline. Again, if I recall right, it is even written in the arbitration decision.

You can't know that there are only 2 or 3 owners that would have moved the team when considering the entire situation. I would guess - and it is only a guess - that there are only a handful of owners that wouldn't have moved the team. The idea that NFL owners value their fan bases over money just doesn't hold up.