Declaration of Independence

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Farr Be It

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Why would you say something that petty and divisive?



@Memphis Ram is historically correct. At one point in our nations history if you were black, free or a slave, you were not considered human and had no rights. It took an Amendment to the above document to correct that grotesque error.
Pretty common knowledge, Les. I could lay out the story of who led the correction of that injustice. I think the point is, why go negative on Independence Day? There are no unflawed countries. I don't think @Memphis Ram meant anything nefarious in posting that comment. Or you Les. You're both correct.

There are countries today that enslave people.

America is the Greatest country on the face of the planet. I don't say that in some "jingoistic" way. I say it out of truth, gratefulness, reverence, appreciation, and as a balance against the incorrect, self-loathing statements usually originated from college campuses.
 

LesBaker

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Pretty common knowledge, Les. I could lay out the story of who led the correction of that injustice. I think the point is, why go negative on Independence Day? There are no unflawed countries. I don't think @Memphis Ram meant anything nefarious in posting that comment. Or you Les. You're both correct.

A lot, and I mean a lot of people truly don't know about that. And also don't know that depending on the state if you were 1/4 or in some cases 1/8 black you were considered completely black. I think that in some extreme cases any non-white ancestors kept a person form having rights.

I don't think it was anything other than a casual remark, in response to the part of the Declaration that he quoted. It's an interesting topic/discussion and how that type of thing has evolved has always been something I think about and enjoy discussing.
 

Farr Be It

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I don't think it was anything other than a casual remark, in response to the part of the Declaration that he quoted. It's an interesting topic/discussion and how that type of thing has evolved has always been something I think about and enjoy discussing.

It was a bit of a turd in the Independence Day punch bowl. I enjoy the discussion too. But you know, Forum rules. And besides, it may degenerate into you PM ing me about what a horrible, ignorant, loathsome human being I am.:sneaky:
 

Loyal

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I will not discuss politics because this site is not about that. As a historian, my overriding principle when examining an historical period, is the context of the times. It can be historically unfair (and even dishonest) to judge a time period with today's standards for political reasons (especially). For instance:

When the Nazi's systematically attempted complete genocide of European Jewry, it was diabolically horrible in the 1940's in that time, as well as today. It is not revisionist history (which is dishonest) to say that it was horrific then as it is now.

In contrast, I had to overcome my own revisionist historical impulse to condemn the Aztecs for their culture before first contact in 1492. Aztecs did mass human sacrifices in the hope to influence the "gods". Aztecs would mostly use captured enemy soldiers to be sacrificed by the thousands atop a pyramid temple to encourage the Sun to continue its journey across the sky. One temple was dedicated with 20,000+ victims, with their hearts being carved out with obsidian knives, one after the other.
The Aztec rain god Tlaloc required the sacrifice of children to ensure sufficient rainfall for crops every year. The children were abused so that they cried on the way to their death (whipped, scratched, hurt), believing that the more they cried, the more Tlaloc would be pleased. The terrified children were sacrificed, with their little hearts being carved out. Yeah, I have told history professors that I didn't give a shyte what happened to the Aztecs and the Incas because of this (Incas had similar rituals) because they were barbaric. I was not wrong to feel the horror concerning this culture with distaste, but I was wrong in not overcoming the disgust to see the context of the time and place. The other great empire in South America, the Incas, did similar sacrifices for similar reasons. The Americas were hermetically sealed from the rest of the World for hundreds of years (maybe thousands of years), so they did these things outside of the norms of Europe/Asia/Africa in those years. Yet, many of the lesser tribes/peoples from which came the sacrificial victims, were the key. Cortes drew from these subjugated peoples for allies and along with biological ally of European disease (diseases of which Natives were totally subject), conquered the Aztecs.

To be fair, the civilized Europeans, would work enslaved natives to death by the millions (greatly aided by disease and sorrowful depression). It is good to be as objective as possible when considering historical events in their context and not judge from our vantage point using only our cultural POV, which is true when considering the founders of the United States. I could describe these things, but won't because it would get the thread locked via the discussion. CONTEXT, grasshoppers! CONTEXT!
 

fearsomefour

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It is impossible to have a logical, reasonable, level headed conversation with entire segments of the population at this point Loyal.
Waste of energy to try.
 

OldSchool

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happy-treason-day-peasants-14695932.png
 

CGI_Ram

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Can't say I see anything particularly wrong here guys, but I am worried where it could go.

I like we know each other as Rams Fans first and foremost. Politics can threaten that... so I must close this thread.

Plus it's our rules, #8; https://ramsondemand.com/help/terms

Thank you.
 
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