Cutler Scenario Mock

[Memphis Ram]

So we're not discussing QB play...we're discussing a team...that isn't the Rams? Why is it relevant then?

I've been discussing offensive points scored by Cutler's offense with their superior weapons in comparison to the Rams offense with Davis/Hill. You've focused soley on TD (& INTs) when FGs (scoring) count, too. Again, that is not unless the Bears kicker is missing a ton a FGs which isn't the case. He's simply not getting the opportunities. The fewest in the league.

 

[jrry32]

I've been discussing offensive points scored by Cutler's offense with their superior weapons in comparison to the Rams offense with Davis/Hill. You've focused soley on TD (& INTs) when FGs (scoring) count, too. Again, that is not unless the Bears kicker is missing a ton a FGs which isn't the case. He's simply not getting the opportunities. The fewest in the league.

2012 Rams with Bradford - 18.7 PPG
2014 Rams with Davis/Hill - 20.8 PPG

We're discussing Jay Cutler; we are not discussing the Bears offense.

You want to argue Hill and Davis are better than Cutler. Make that argument. Otherwise, I don't know what point you're trying to make.

I'm sorry, Memphis, but I just don't have the patience for this type of arguing. If you have a point, make it.

Are you arguing that Cutler would not make this team better at QB than Hill and Davis made it? Are you arguing this team would not score more(or many more) points with Cutler than Davis and Hill? Are you arguing that this team would not be better with Cutler than it was with Davis and Hill? Are you arguing Cutler is not enough of an upgrade?

What is the point here? It's easy to take stats and twist them to suit your argument. I'm not interested in hearing anymore about what the stats say. I want to know what you're saying.

And frankly, I think it's worth pointing out that Cutler and the Bears averaged 28.1 PPG last year in his 11 starts...so maybe there's more to this than simply the weapons. Or the fact that the Bears averaged 24.5 PPG with Cutler in 2012 without Bennett and prior to Jeffery breaking out. Or I could point out the Bears averaging 26.8 PPG in Cutler's 10 starts in 2011 without any of the weapons but Forte.

Cutler isn't consistent but he's shown the ability to produce especially when the team doesn't need him to shoulder the load...and the team doesn't have a dysfunctional locker-room with a Head Coach struggling to lead and an OC talking trash behind his QB's back.

But I'm not going to make excuses for the guy. His play this year hasn't been good. But then again, he's an average QB. It's been average. Difference is that the Bears have a terrible defense and a coaching staff struggling to keep hold of the locker-room.

So you can compare the Bears PPG to the Rams but it's not doing anything for me. Because I know Cutler is a far better QB than the guys we've had this year and I know we'd be averaging more PPG with him under center...I guess that just speaks to the job that our coaching staff has done this year. But then again, Rams fans want to fire Schotty.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Then stop being an ass and use the Rams garbage time stats in comparison to the Bears.

Oh wait.....Jrry already did and figured out the scoring still favors the Bears.

Actually, he didn't, but I'm not surprised that you got that wrong, too.

Then tell me, oh great one, what is the arbitrary designation for "garbage time stats?" Haven't the Rams played prevent all the time because Fisher is conservative and has burned us?

Is it garbage if the team gets in the big hole but fails to complete the come back like the Falcons game last year? Oh wait.....that was old larry's excuse for Bradford hate.

Is it 7 points?
14?
17?

2nd QTR?
3rd QTR?

5 minutes left in the game.

Please, help me understand when it magically becomes garbage time so I can go through every NFL player's stats and arbitrarily dock stats.[/QUOTE]

Oh please. Can the great one crap. Look you started being an ass when you asked me what I was smoking earlier and I've merely countered you "arguments."

You know darn well when teams have called the dogs off on defense trying to kill time as games have gotten out of hand vs. a bend but don't great style being played while outcomes are still in the balance.

Check the scoreboard & time remaining while watching the games and figure it out yourself. And some teams will even help you out as they won't be as aggressive on offense.

 

[moklerman]

Not exactly. No. Because Cutler's risk comes with significantly more guaranteed money and much less upside. So the risk just about evens out but there's more upside with Bradford for a team like Buffalo. And again, I'll restate that he fits their system better than Cutler.

I think Bradford would fit just about any system better than Cutler but the risk of Bradford staying healthy far outweighs Cutler's ability within a system. Plus, with Cutler, Buffalo would get a full offseason to integrate him. With Bradford? Probably not. That's a factor in all of this IMO. With the Rams, they can bring Bradford back as slowly as they want because knowledge and familiarity aren't an issue. Buffalo would need him on the field as soon as possible. That increases the risks IMO.

He's had 2 different coaches since then and Marrone isn't tight with Shanahan. So no, that's not the case.

But the point is whether or not Cutler's reputation is an issue. Regardless if Shanahan confirms it, if it isn't an issue, it isn't an issue.

I guess we'll see. Other than Tennessee and us, I'm not sold there will be too many takers. The Jets might factor in depending on their new coach.

Bills, Jets, Browns, Titans, Cardinals, Buccaneers, Redskins, Eagles...those are teams with obvious uncertainty at QB and I'm sure there might be a dark horse or two if he became available.

 

[Memphis Ram]

2012 Rams with Bradford - 18.7 PPG
2014 Rams with Davis/Hill - 20.8 PPG

We're discussing Jay Cutler; we are not discussing the Bears offense.

You want to argue Hill and Davis are better than Cutler. Make that argument. Otherwise, I don't know what point you're trying to make.

I'm sorry, Memphis, but I just don't have the patience for this type of arguing. If you have a point, make it.

Are you arguing that Cutler would not make this team better at QB than Hill and Davis made it? Are you arguing this team would not score more(or many more) points with Cutler than Davis and Hill? Are you arguing that this team would not be better with Cutler than it was with Davis and Hill? Are you arguing Cutler is not enough of an upgrade?

What is the point here? It's easy to take stats and twist them to suit your argument. I'm not interested in hearing anymore about what the stats say. I want to know what you're saying.

And frankly, I think it's worth pointing out that Cutler and the Bears averaged 28.1 PPG last year in his 11 starts...so maybe there's more to this than simply the weapons. Or the fact that the Bears averaged 24.5 PPG with Cutler in 2012 without Bennett and prior to Jeffery breaking out. Or I could point out the Bears averaging 26.8 PPG in Cutler's 10 starts in 2011 without any of the weapons but Forte.

Cutler isn't consistent but he's shown the ability to produce especially when the team doesn't need him to shoulder the load...and the team doesn't have a dysfunctional locker-room with a Head Coach struggling to lead and an OC talking trash behind his QB's back.

But I'm not going to make excuses for the guy. His play this year hasn't been good. But then again, he's an average QB. It's been average. Difference is that the Bears have a terrible defense and a coaching staff struggling to keep hold of the locker-room.

So you can compare the Bears PPG to the Rams but it's not doing anything for me. Because I know Cutler is a far better QB than the guys we've had this year and I know we'd be averaging more PPG with him under center...I guess that just speaks to the job that our coaching staff has done this year. But then again, Rams fans want to fire Schotty.

jrry32,

I made my point with my very first post. You guys ran with it in all different directions and I've been trying to keep up. I'll repeat.

Cutler has Matt Forte, Brandon Marshall, Alshon Jeffrey & Martellus Bennett and the Bears have barely scored more points than the Rams.

Here's another one of those overpaid, overrated QBs that teams grab ahold of panning for gold. The Rams would be crazy to trade for Culter AND THAT CONTRACT.

Even you call him an average QB. So what sense does it make to trade for and pay that kind of money for an average QB? They might as well keep Bradford.

 

[jrry32]

jrry32,

I made my point with my very first post. You guys ran with it in all different directions and I've been trying to keep up. I'll repeat.

No, you didn't. You didn't make a point besides raising an objection to the trade.

Posting that the Bears have barely scored more points than the Rams means nothing to me. What are you trying to say?

Would the Rams offense have been better this year with Cutler? Would the Rams have scored more points with Cutler? Would those extra points and better QBing have won us more games?

Then no, the Rams aren't panning for gold. We're not panning for Aaron Rodgers. We know what we're getting. What we're getting just happens to be good enough.

But since you want to focus on points...as I stated:
2013 - 28.1 PPG
2012 - 24.5 PPG
2011 - 26.8 PPG

Fact is that he wouldn't be available if he were gold. But he's enough for this team to contend.

 

[jrry32]

I think Bradford would fit just about any system better than Cutler but the risk of Bradford staying healthy far outweighs Cutler's ability within a system. Plus, with Cutler, Buffalo would get a full offseason to integrate him. With Bradford? Probably not. That's a factor in all of this IMO. With the Rams, they can bring Bradford back as slowly as they want because knowledge and familiarity aren't an issue. Buffalo would need him on the field as soon as possible. That increases the risks IMO.

Not really.

But the point is whether or not Cutler's reputation is an issue. Regardless if Shanahan confirms it, if it isn't an issue, it isn't an issue.

And AGAIN, Shanahan isn't sending out an email to all 32 teams. Him and Fisher are very tight. Fisher is privy to information that Marrone will not be.

Bills, Jets, Browns, Titans, Cardinals, Buccaneers, Redskins, Eagles...those are teams with obvious uncertainty at QB and I'm sure there might be a dark horse or two if he became available.

I forgot the Browns. Depends on what they think of Manziel as Kyle Shanahan is there. They could take a shot. Already counted the Titans and the Jets.

I don't see the others doing it.

 

[moklerman]

Not really.

The sooner Bradford is brought back, the higher the risk. Seems like a proven point.

And AGAIN, Shanahan isn't sending out an email to all 32 teams. Him and Fisher are very tight. Fisher is privy to information that Marrone will not be.

I think you're overvaluing this hypothetical insight from Shanahan. I'm curious what you think he might know that is a secret to the rest of the league?

I don't see the others doing it.

Okay, so that's still potentially 4 other teams going after the guy. Which constitutes a "market", which equals the cost going up. If the Browns, Titans, Jets, Rams and Bills are all pining after him, seems like a third might not be enough.

 

[Memphis Ram]

No, you didn't. You didn't make a point besides raising an objection to the trade.

Posting that the Bears have barely scored more points than the Rams means jackshit to me. What are you trying to say?

Would the Rams offense have been better this year with Cutler? Would the Rams have scored more points with Cutler? Would those extra points and better QBing have won us more games?

Then no, the Rams aren't panning for gold. We're not panning for Aaron Rodgers. We know what we're getting. What we're getting just happens to be good enough.

But since you want to focus on points...as I stated:
2013 - 28.1 PPG
2012 - 24.5 PPG
2011 - 26.8 PPG

Fact is that he wouldn't be available if he were gold. But he's enough for this team to contend.

Originally, my objection was the only point that I was making prior to your responses.

That said, I'm saying what you have already said. He's an average QB. But, to continue on, IMO, it makes no sense whatsoever to give up compensation for the right to vastly overpay an average QB.

Hell, the team could have very well been better off with Ryan Fitzpatrick. One could say that's he's good enough for this team to contend, too. Some even believe that Matt Moore could be good enough for this team to contend. For all we know, Austin Davis with more experience could be good enough for this team to contend. Of course, that's impossible for those who somehow believe that they have seen all that they need to see despite the kid starting for the first time in his entire career this year. No way he can improve. Unlike just about every other player in the league, he started out at his max capacity somehow.

BTW, on your PPG, did you subtract all of the Bears defensive and special teams scores? I think they had close to 30 TDs during that time span.

 

[jrry32]

The sooner Bradford is brought back, the higher the risk. Seems like a proven point.

I don't know when that would have been a proven point. He was injured in the preseason by a hit.

QBs don't get hit in practice.

I think you're overvaluing this hypothetical insight from Shanahan. I'm curious what you think he might know that is a secret to the rest of the league?

Well, he drafted, developed, coached, and shared a locker-room with Cutler. I think he knows quite a bit about the guy's film habits, attitude, personality, etc. even if it is older information.

Okay, so that's still potentially 4 other teams going after the guy. Which constitutes a "market", which equals the cost going up. If the Browns, Titans, Jets, Rams and Bills are all pining after him, seems like a third might not be enough.

Yea, I'm pretty sure I counted the Bills out. So there are possibly four teams...and who knows if the Jets and Browns are actually in the market or not. Who knows if the Rams or Titans are(but I assume they are).

I feel pretty confident I gave up enough. His contract, age, and reputation are going to lower his value.

None of us know what his market will be. But I think I made a reasonable estimate.

 

[jrry32]

Originally, my objection was the only point that I was making prior to your responses.

That said, I'm saying what you have already said. He's an average QB. But, to continue on, IMO, it makes no sense whatsoever to give up compensation for the right to vastly overpay an average QB.

It does when you have the cap flexibility, a team ready to contend, and need a QB but lack options at the position.

Hell, the team could have very well been better off with Ryan Fitzpatrick. One could say that's he's good enough for this team to contend, too. Some even believe that Matt Moore could be good enough for this team to contend. For all we know, Austin Davis with more experience could be good enough for this team to contend. Of course, that's impossible for those who somehow believe that they have seen all that they need to see despite the kid starting for the first time in his entire career this year. No way he can improve. Unlike just about every other player in the league, he started out at his max capacity somehow.

Yea and maybe the tooth fairy can come play QB for us. I've seen all I need to see. The guy isn't good enough. I don't need two seasons of him sucking to realize that. How many games did you need to figure out that Blaine Gabbert just didn't have the ability?

BTW, on your PPG, did you subtract all of the Bears defensive and special teams scores? I think they had close to 30 TDs during that time span.

Nope. Feel free to.

 

[jrry32]

Well, @moklerman maybe I overvalued Cutler...

Several NFL executives believe that it’s possible for Bears QB Jay Cutler to go from being benched to becoming a first-scenario, test-case trade. Never before has a team trading a player also had to give up drat-pick compensation to get rid of him. But some NFL executives believe that with any team having to absorb $25.5 million worth of guarantees in Cutler’s contract, the Bears might have to package a decent draft pick to get another team to take him. NFL rules dictate that nominal compensation must be exchanged between teams, but it could mean another team surrendering a late-round pick to Chicago for Cutler and a better pick. Such a scenario could enrage Bears fans, but to get a team to take on so much guaranteed money that could be used on valuable free agents and contract extensions, the Bears just might have to compensate a team with more than Cutler to do it.

 

[Memphis Ram]

It does when you have the cap flexibility, a team ready to contend, and need a QB but lack options at the position.

Disagree. This average QB might cost the team some of it's young 2016 free agents or force the team into a future salary cap hell situation.

Yea and maybe the tooth fairy can come play QB for us. I've seen all I need to see. The guy isn't good enough. I don't need two seasons of him sucking to realize that. How many games did you need to figure out that Blaine Gabbert just didn't have the ability?

You've seen all you need to see in only 8 games? Five of which were against, perhaps the top 5 defenses in the NFL? OK.

I didn't really watch Gabbert too much, but I see that his stats don't even compare to Davis.

Nope. Feel free to.

No need.

 

[Athos]

No need.

They why even bring it up? Make make others do your stat digging for you?

Disagree. This average QB might cost the team some of it's young 2016 free agents or force the team into a future salary cap hell situation.

If Bradford had never gotten injured, we'd be looking at an extension for him and virtually the SAME cap-hit Cutler would provide. The league is proving that even to sign an average QB, you're going to have to shell out $16million a year and that's the starting point.

BTW, on your PPG, did you subtract all of the Bears defensive and special teams scores? I think they had close to 30 TDs during that time span.

Do that for the Rams too and compare. :coffee:

I'm sure you'll find our offensive output even more depressingly bad.

 

[Memphis Ram]

They why even bring it up? Make make others do your stat digging for you?

YAWN. Merely asking a question. Not asking him to do any work.

If Bradford had never gotten injured, we'd be looking at an extension for him and virtually the SAME cap-hit Cutler would provide. The league is proving that even to sign an average QB, you're going to have to shell out $16million a year and that's the starting point.

That would be dependent upon how he played.

Do that for the Rams too and compare. :coffee:

I'm sure you'll find our offensive output even more depressingly bad.

Incorrect again. As I recall, the Rams might be struggling to have even half the same type of scores during that period of time. No need for me to look it up. It's an item that has been discussed in the past.

 

[jrry32]

Disagree. This average QB might cost the team some of it's young 2016 free agents or force the team into a future salary cap hell situation.

How? It's a two year deal and then we're out. We're set to have a ridiculous amount of cap room in 2016 either ways. It's not going to cost us our young free agents or force us into future salary cap hell.

You've seen all you need to see in only 8 games? Five of which were against, perhaps the top 5 defenses in the NFL? OK.

I didn't really watch Gabbert too much, but I see that his stats don't even compare to Davis.

Yes, I have. Davis lacks physical tools in a major way. His arm strength is well below average. He's below average height. He's average in terms of mobility. That's already working against him. So when you add on his lack of composure in the pocket, his struggles reading the blitz, his issues reading defenses, his lack of precise timing on throws, and his poor pocket presence...you have pretty major issues.

He's not good enough.

 

[Athos]

Incorrect again. As I recall, the Rams might be struggling to have even half the same type of scores during that period of time. No need for me to look it up. It's an item that has been discussed in the past.

Look. You either have the stats to prove YOUR point, or you don't. There's no sense even continuing unless you can actually back your argument up, which you haven't yet.

 

[Memphis Ram]

How? It's a two year deal and then we're out. We're set to have a ridiculous amount of cap room in 2016 either ways. It's not going to cost us our young free agents or force us into future salary cap hell.

Hayes, Brockers, Barron, Jenkins, Johnson, Sims, Quick, Zeurlein are set to be free agents, too. With Long, Austin, Ogletree, McDonald set to join the ranks the following season. The higher the league's salary cap should also push salaries higher as well.

Yes, I have. Davis lacks physical tools in a major way. His arm strength is well below average. He's below average height. He's average in terms of mobility. That's already working against him. So when you add on his lack of composure in the pocket, his struggles reading the blitz, his issues reading defenses, his lack of precise timing on throws, and his poor pocket presence...you have pretty major issues.

He's not good enough.

I haven't. IMO, only 8 games, 5 of which are vs. top 5 defenses, is way too early tell. Sure, he's not perfect, but I didn't expect perfection from such an inexperienced player. BTW, I don't agree with your assessment regarding his arm strength.

Either way, the team won 3 of 8 games with this poor player at QB who played most of his games prior to the defense showing up this season. If the defense doesn't go away and the team FINALLY builds a strong rushing attack (Fisher's MO), it wouldn't shock me one bit to see this team contend with a more experienced Davis.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Look. You either have the stats to prove YOUR point, or you don't. There's no sense even continuing unless you can actually back your argument up, which you haven't yet.

Look. You've jumped into the middle of a discussion and have been lost throughout most of the exchange which your last post only proves. With this, I agree. There's no sense in continuing this with YOU.

 

[jrry32]

Hayes, Brockers, Barron, Jenkins, Johnson, Sims, Quick, Zeurlein are set to be free agents, too. With Long, Austin, Ogletree, McDonald set to join the ranks the following season. The higher the league's salary cap should also push salaries higher as well.

We have $76+ million dollars in cap room in 2016 if Jake Long is cut. We're fine.

I haven't. IMO, only 8 games, 5 of which are vs. top 5 defenses, is way too early tell. Sure, he's not perfect, but I didn't expect perfection from such an inexperienced player. BTW, I don't agree with your assessment regarding his arm strength.

I'm not sure what you'd disagree with on arm strength. It was blatantly obvious that Davis doesn't have a strong arm.

Either way, the team won 3 of 8 games with this poor player at QB who played most of his games prior to the defense showing up this season. If the defense doesn't go away and the team FINALLY builds a strong rushing attack (Fisher's MO), it wouldn't shock me one bit to see this team contend with a more experienced Davis.

I think that believing that would be a mistake of epic proportions. And I think that's how you keep the Rams in the cellar when they're ready to contend for the playoffs.

Davis was terrible over his final 2 weeks. I don't care how good the defenses were on paper. He wasn't identifying the open WRs and when he did, he struggled hitting them. The guy got progressively worse as the season wore on...because defenses figured out his weaknesses and limitations.

Good luck putting your eggs in the Davis basket. I'll take a proven average QB over a fringe roster player who has "potential".(but really, I don't see much potential)