Chris Landry: Fisher and Snead prefer Mariota to Winston

[fearsomefour]

Mariotta is more athletic and has zero character issues we know of. Kind of an easy choice from that perspective. I don't want either really.

 

[DaveFan'51]

...we need an insurance plan, for Sam, for the team, and yeah, for us, the best damn football fans in the world.

It would be foolish not to have an insurance plan, and Our front Office and Coaching Staff aren't Fools!!

 

[bwdenverram]

No, it's not a fact. Bradford isn't in the top 2 or 3 in the NFL in terms of arm strength. Winston has a stronger arm than Bradford. The guy throws in the mid 90s in baseball. He's got a cannon.

Bradford's arm strength is firmly in the very good territory. Winston's is in the great territory. And Winston is very accurate with his placement. As accurate as Sam coming out. Same is more accurate now but that's because he's been in the league for years. Winston will likely get there.

Where Sam had/has the huge upper hand is/was decision making.

Regardless, I have Sam as the top QB I've ever evaluated and Winston is very close in terms of on the field play(as was Luck).

Probably not a fair comparison given the OL and offense Bradford ran in college. But as much as I value your opinion Jrry I just can't agree. I've watched a bunch of highlights on both Winston and Sam in college and I'm not sure how you can come away with Bradford wasn't as accurate coming out of college. In fact, what I see watching both guys pass is if anything Sam put the ball more in the receivers stride than Winston. That is not to say Winston isn't fairly accurate and I agree he does have a strong arm. But I don't see much difference. And pretty much every "expert" and player that has played with Sam thus far has said he's the most accurate QB they've seen. I will say Winston in college might have a slightly stronger arm overall but I do think Sam got stronger since college. And most notably in preseason before he got hurt again his arm looked as strong as ever.
One thing I'l give Winston all day is his overall strength and ability to avoid the rush is pretty impressive.

 

[RamFan503]

I think the arm strength thing is a little deceiving in that Winston puts far more of his big body into his throws as does a baseball pitcher. Bradford's short compact motion gets the ball out quicker and with pretty much the same zip if not a little more on a lot of throws. He rarely if ever has to wind up to make a throw and uses his arm more than his body whereas Winston generally puts more body into his throws.

You can't really say that throwing a baseball 95 miles per hour is all about having a strong arm. Much of that speed is generated through the motion and the arm as a whip like extension.

I believe one of our regular members broke it down pretty well at one time when this kind of discussion came up. His son I believe is a minor league pitcher - hint - if you are watching this thread whoever you are.

 

[jrry32]

Yep. I know few QBs who can complete that pass in the NFL. I think Bradford has about as good an arm as Flacco. Not the deep ball touch, but the strength.

Though, a bit hard to say. Sam hasn't really had too many chances or the WR, to hit guys deep like Flacco.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f75oTotRbIc

 

[jrry32]

Probably not a fair comparison given the OL and offense Bradford ran in college. But as much as I value your opinion Jrry I just can't agree. I've watched a bunch of highlights on both Winston and Sam in college and I'm not sure how you can come away with Bradford wasn't as accurate coming out of college.

That's not what I said.

In fact, what I see watching both guys pass is if anything Sam put the ball more in the receivers stride than Winston. That is not to say Winston isn't fairly accurate and I agree he does have a strong arm. But I don't see much difference. And pretty much every "expert" and player that has played with Sam thus far has said he's the most accurate QB they've seen. I will say Winston in college might have a slightly stronger arm overall but I do think Sam got stronger since college. And most notably in preseason before he got hurt again his arm looked as strong as ever.
One thing I'l give Winston all day is his overall strength and ability to avoid the rush is pretty impressive.

Okay but highlights and games are a different story. As I said before, Winston's arm is a bit stronger while both guys are about equally accurate.

I think the arm strength thing is a little deceiving in that Winston puts far more of his big body into his throws as does a baseball pitcher. Bradford's short compact motion gets the ball out quicker and with pretty much the same zip if not a little more on a lot of throws. He rarely if ever has to wind up to make a throw and uses his arm more than his body whereas Winston generally puts more body into his throws.

You can't really say that throwing a baseball 95 miles per hour is all about having a strong arm. Much of that speed is generated through the motion and the arm as a whip like extension.

I believe one of our regular members broke it down pretty well at one time when this kind of discussion came up. His son I believe is a minor league pitcher - hint - if you are watching this thread whoever you are.

Winston actually hasn't maximized his arm strength yet because he doesn't consistently put as much of his body as he could into his throws. His mechanics still need some developing.

I can say that you can't throw a baseball 95 mph without a naturally strong arm. Which is what I did say. Your motion and mechanics are going to dictate velocity in both football and baseball but you have to have a naturally strong arm to reach that sort of ceiling.

And I gotta disagree that Bradford uses his arm more than his body. He has excellent mechanics. If anything, he incorporates more of his body into his throws than Winston because he's more refined mechanically. Watch Tom Brady. It doesn't look like he's putting that much of his body in his throws but he is because his mechanics are so sound. He's a guy who improved his arm strength by really putting a ton of work into his legs and core strength.

 

[bwdenverram]

That's not what I said.
As accurate as Sam coming out. Sam is more accurate now but that's because he's been in the league for years. Winston will likely get there.

This is what you said so it sounds implied. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. You also said Sam's arm strength again was in the very good category and Winston was in the great category. I don't see that but again that's just my view.

You have your view of Winston and I respect it, period. I just don't agree with it. That said, if he becomes a Ram I would be more than happy.

 

[Athos]

Which is what I did say. Your motion and mechanics are going to dictate velocity in both football and baseball but you have to have a naturally strong arm to reach that sort of ceiling.

That's not really all that true based purely on really short guys, or guys with wonky deliveries in baseball. I'll defer that you know your football, but I live, breath, and die baseball.

Carlos Martinez of the Cardinals weights 185 soaking wet and racket his fastball up over 100mph. In baseball, mechanics, delivery, and stride mean a lot. A guy like Trevor Rosenthal generates the strength from his lower half for the upper 90s speed. You're falling forward, literally, towards the plate. A guy like C-Mart generates much of that speed purely on quick twitch muscle, and a quick release.

Or, another example if you like is Tim Lincecum who weights 170 soaking wet. He gets to 95, or rather, got to 95, because of that wonky, trebuchet like delivery where he winds way back before extending through the wind up.

 

[jrry32]

That's not really all that true based purely on really short guys, or guys with wonky deliveries in baseball. I'll defer that you know your football, but I live, breath, and die baseball.

Carlos Martinez of the Cardinals weights 185 soaking wet and racket his fastball up over 100mph. In baseball, mechanics, delivery, and stride mean a lot. A guy like Trevor Rosenthal generates the strength from his lower half for the upper 90s speed. You're falling forward, literally, towards the plate. A guy like C-Mart generates much of that speed purely on quick twitch muscle, and a quick release.

Or, another example if you like is Tim Lincecum who weights 170 soaking wet. He gets to 95, or rather, got to 95, because of that wonky, trebuchet like delivery where he winds way back before extending through the wind up.

Do you think those guys could throw 95 to 100 mph if they didn't have naturally strong arms? The fact is that guys that throw that hard are rare. If it were all mechanics, you'd see a lot more guys capable of doing it.

You guys are misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying throwing is all arm strength. I'm saying quite the opposite. But am I saying that it takes extraordinary natural arm strength to be able to throw that hard in baseball. Same thing with football. Guys like Cutler, Rodgers, Stafford, Kaepernick, etc. have extraordinary natural arm strength.

 

[RamFan503]

If it were all mechanics, you'd see a lot more guys capable of doing it.

Not really because much like any real talented person, you can't teach just anyone to perfect those mechanics. You might be able to get some to throw faster but the ability to use the techniques and talents of most hard throwing pitchers is pretty rare.

As far as throwing a baseball, Randy Johnson used to joke about being a total weakling until he got up on the mound. He was all knees and elbows. Pedro Martinez was what 5'10" and a buck fifty? So yeah - I'd say those guys throw hard despite not having naturally strong arms. I would even say that most pitchers don't have what would be regarded as strong arms.

I agree that Winston can develop into a better QB and combined with his strength and abilities has the tools to be very special. But I think he will really struggle at first trying to get that much room to step into throws in order to get zip and accuracy on them. I just don't think he will be able to float those passes like he does into zones in the NFL without getting several of them picked off by more talented DBs. I just don't see anywhere near the arm talent that I see in Sam Bradford. Will he be a better NFL QB than Bradford? Quite possibly so. If he can keep his head right, I think he has a rare combination of skills and size that will make him pretty hard to defend against.

 

[psxpaul]

You know who had a canon of an arm, with good accuracy? Jamarcus Russell. And we all know how that guy's career went. He had a pretty good highlight reel too:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJV4yu-llk

 

[jrry32]

Not really because much like any real talented person, you can't teach just anyone to perfect those mechanics. You might be able to get some to throw faster but the ability to use the techniques and talents of most hard throwing pitchers is pretty rare.

As far as throwing a baseball, Randy Johnson used to joke about being a total weakling until he got up on the mound. He was all knees and elbows. Pedro Martinez was what 5'10" and a buck fifty? So yeah - I'd say those guys throw hard despite not having naturally strong arms. I would even say that most pitchers don't have what would be regarded as strong arms.

I think you're mistaking actual strength with arm strength in the context of throwing a ball. I'm not talking about lift strength. I'm talking about throwing a ball. Randy Johnson had a cannon...and his height only helped.

I caught passes from a guy who threw in the low 90s and high 80s. It hurt without gloves. You've gotta have a strong arm to throw that hard.

I agree that Winston can develop into a better QB and combined with his strength and abilities has the tools to be very special. But I think he will really struggle at first trying to get that much room to step into throws in order to get zip and accuracy on them. I just don't think he will be able to float those passes like he does into zones in the NFL without getting several of them picked off by more talented DBs. I just don't see anywhere near the arm talent that I see in Sam Bradford. Will he be a better NFL QB than Bradford? Quite possibly so. If he can keep his head right, I think he has a rare combination of skills and size that will make him pretty hard to defend against.

Winston doesn't need that sort of room. He wasn't incorporating his body well into throws in college and was still rifling the ball in there.

 

[jrry32]

You know who had a canon of an arm, with good accuracy? Jamarcus Russell. And we all know how that guy's career went. He had a pretty good highlight reel too:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJV4yu-llk

You know who else had a cannon for an arm with accuracy? Aaron Rodgers and Brett Favre. And we all know how their careers went. They had pretty good highlight reels too.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSggj2vssK8


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RoRRkyjd4c

 

[RamFan503]

I think you're mistaking actual strength with arm strength in the context of throwing a ball. I'm not talking about lift strength. I'm talking about throwing a ball. Randy Johnson had a cannon...and his height only helped.

I caught passes from a guy who threw in the low 90s and high 80s. It hurt without gloves. You've gotta have a strong arm to throw that hard.



Winston doesn't need that sort of room. He wasn't incorporating his body well into throws in college and was still rifling the ball in there.

Nah man - I think it is quite obvious that coming out of college, Winston could kick Sam's ass in a dead lift competition but Sam had the mechanics and talent to get more out of his passes in tighter windows and with less of a motion with his body.

We may be arguing semantics to a point but I don't see Winston being able to develop the arm talent that Sam has been able to no matter how much they work with him. That doesn't mean he couldn't be a better pro. Hell - by staying on the field he could be a better pro. But I don't see Winston's arm talent as what will potentially set him apart from his peers once he reaches the NFL. It will be the combination of good arm talent and elite physicality for the position. Unless of course he can't keep his head straight - then nothing else matters.

 

[jrry32]

Nah man - I think it is quite obvious that coming out of college, Winston could kick Sam's ass in a dead lift competition but Sam had the mechanics and talent to get more out of his passes in tighter windows and with less of a motion with his body.

We may be arguing semantics to a point but I don't see Winston being able to develop the arm talent that Sam has been able to no matter how much they work with him. That doesn't mean he couldn't be a better pro. Hell - by staying on the field he could be a better pro. But I don't see Winston's arm talent as what will potentially set him apart from his peers once he reaches the NFL. It will be the combination of good arm talent and elite physicality for the position. Unless of course he can't keep his head straight - then nothing else matters.

I don't agree.

 

[Jorgeh0605]

You know who had a canon of an arm, with good accuracy? Jamarcus Russell. And we all know how that guy's career went. He had a pretty good highlight reel too:

I think you digress from the conversation. Nobody is debating the validity of arm strength as a determining factor in their success. The other posters are simply comparing the arm strengths of Bradford and Winston.

But honestly comparing arm strength is really arguing over semantics IMO. As a QB you need to show you have the arm strength to compete in the NFL. There is really not much benefit to having one of those QB's from the "great arm strength" tier compared to the "really good" tier. You kind of just have to be able to get it done.

However, I think Bradford's mechanics give him the extra zip to edge out Winston in the end result. Not saying his arm strength is superior, but his overall throwing ability is. You can't really measure their arm strength in a vacuum because of all the other important variables involved.

I do think that Winston is undoubtedly the best QB in the draft. Debates between him and Mariota are just noise IMO. The only thing keeping this from being a done deal for Tampa Bay are his character flaws.

 

[FrantikRam]

I disagree with all of you about Bradford's arm strength. It's just average IMO.

Watch him when he is forced to throw with poor mechanics, and see what happens. It's not pretty, and it's why we need a "perfect" offensive line with Sam. I realize he can throw the ball hard, but if we're talking about natural arm strength, I don't see it with Sam.

 

[psxpaul]

I think you digress from the conversation. Nobody is debating the validity of arm strength as a determining factor in their success. The other posters are simply comparing the arm strengths of Bradford and Winston.

That's my point though - all this talk about arm strength is just silly and pointless.

But honestly comparing arm strength is really arguing over semantics IMO. As a QB you need to show you have the arm strength to compete in the NFL. There is really not much benefit to having one of those QB's from the "great arm strength" tier compared to the "really good" tier. You kind of just have to be able to get it done.

Exactly this. Its worse than arguing semantics because there is no actual metric that would settle the question. Its a "my dad could beat up your dad" argument.

 

[WestCoastRam]

So Fisher and Snead prefer Mariota over Winston... because Sam has arm strength and Winston doesn't?