Breaking Down the Top 2 QBs - Goff vs. Wentz

[blackbart]

Great job @jrry32 I can't wait for this next week to go by so we can see who the pick. No doubt we will have an upgrade at QB and hopefully be out of purgatory for a decade or so.

 

[RAMpage28]

Agree with a lot of this.

Seems like both guys are a win. I would be happy with either pick.

 

[nighttrain]

I don't really want to get into any lengthy discussions or arguments about it, because it is what it is, we pick who we pick, and I think both players are going to be great, but I'll just throw my opinion out there.

I just prefer Goff because he's already "there". I'm kind of tired of waiting on potential and development. At some point, we need to take the guy who's ready to lead us to the playoffs right now and win games right now. If Goff is ready to go, plug him in. By no means do I think I know a lot about football, but I get the vibe that Goff is ready to play right now, and Wentz is still a work in progress. If we get the sure top 15ish QB instead of the potential top 10 QB, so be it. I'm okay with that.

And the Ram's need a ready to play QB, Goff, this team has a great chance to be a winner next season or three, = starting this SEASON.
PLAYOFFS


train

 

[FloridaBison]

Jrry32. Excellent work, and with that I do have a question for you. Ive read two different articles that made statements about Goffs "getting along" with his teammates. The articles elude to perhaps not getting along with other players as well as his ability to be a leader in the huddle.

I didn't think much of it until Gruden stated that Goff was coming back to Orlando to work on those very things.

Feedback?

 

[jrry32]

Jrry32. Excellent work, and with that I do have a question for you. Ive read two different articles that made statements about Goffs "getting along" with his teammates. The articles elude to perhaps not getting along with other players as well as his ability to be a leader in the huddle.

I didn't think much of it until Gruden stated that Goff was coming back to Orlando to work on those very things.

Feedback?

Can't say. I've never heard anything about him having problems with teammates. But I'm not in the locker-room out there.

 

[jhbchristopher]

Jrry32. Excellent work, and with that I do have a question for you. Ive read two different articles that made statements about Goffs "getting along" with his teammates. The articles elude to perhaps not getting along with other players as well as his ability to be a leader in the huddle.

I didn't think much of it until Gruden stated that Goff was coming back to Orlando to work on those very things.

Feedback?

CAL fan here, watched every game Goff played, first off CAL doesn't huddle so not sure why some one would say he doesn't lead in the huddle. Secondly his teammates love him, have been to many games and watched all the others it's pretty easy to tell. Lastly he's not a screamer, he leads by example, he will talk to people when mistakes are made but doesn't feel the need to embarrass his teammates on TV. To CAL fans Goff is known for his calmness and coolness especially under pressure, nothing rattles him, his favorite players are Montana and Young, he definitely emulated Montana in the coolness department. Dude get knocked down and gets right pack up again, he makes a bad throw but goes right back to the same throw and hits it. He has astonishing numbers against the blitz, pretty crazy but he does. I think it also shows in his pocket presence and awareness, he just doesn't let stuff bother him which helps him focus.

Also not sure what you meant about going back to work with Gruden on something? Haven't heard of seen that anywhere, it wouldn't be the brightest thing for a potential first pick to announce that he has leadership issues and is seeking help from Gruden. It sounds like the author of the articles you read didn't do his homework or maybe has a little bias.

People lead differently, Goff isn't a yeller, doesn't make him a bad leader. Montana didn't yell either, I think he won a few rings.

 

[jrry32]

Here are some great examples of what make Goff special:
https://gifs.com/gif/W61WDx
https://gifs.com/gif/v2wmV5
https://gifs.com/gif/xkyoX3
https://gifs.com/gif/PNG631
https://gifs.com/gif/o2mAxB
https://gifs.com/gif/v2wmG0
https://gifs.com/gif/W61WMQ
(make sure to watch the last video because the work he does on that play for a first down is incredible)

I purposefully didn't pick big plays and scoring plays from that game.(trust me, there were some amazing throws for big plays/TDs in this game that I easily could have picked) I picked plays that seem like fairly run of the mill plays on the stat sheet. The reason I picked these plays is because they illustrate the things that Goff does that will make the biggest difference at the next level.

He's got bodies all around him and yet he's fully in control. He's moving with a purpose and always knows where his receivers are so he's ready to get the ball out to the open man as soon as he has enough time.

That's what wins you football games. The guy who can buy just that extra split second of time when the pocket is collapsing and hit his open WR with the ball.

And I recognize a few of these are check-downs but that's my point. Peyton Manning murders teams with check-downs. Because when he's under pressure, he always seems to know who is open. Goff has that same sort of ability. He's not too selfish. When he knows the pressure is coming, he'll hit his check-down guy. And he moves so quickly through his progressions and reads that he actually gives his check-down guy an opportunity to pick up yards after the catch.

Goff's instincts, movement, and poise in the pocket are special. He has a great feel for where throwing lanes are and an innate sense of where pressure is coming from. He has extremely quick feet which allow him to move quick and reset quickly to get the ball out. And the guy doesn't drop his eyes. He keeps his head on a swivel and knows exactly who to get the ball to as soon as he's bought enough time to get it out.

The guy's OL sucked. And it forced him to develop these skills. Thank the Lord it did. Because this is a kid who can step in right away and make the Rams OL look good.

 

[ausmurp]

As those in the draft forum know, I've spent months watching the QBs in this draft to try and determine who the Rams should draft after seeing our struggles this year. I made it known in this forum (more than some appreciated) that I felt the Rams needed to grab a QB. Luckily, the Rams rewarded my temper tantrum of sorts.

For those who have only seen the highlights and read the scouting reports or heard from the talking head, I hope this is useful for you. I'm going to break down the strengths and weaknesses of each passer, compare them to a few NFL passers, and explain my preference for Goff over Wentz. For those of you who question where my report comes from, I watched between 12 and 20 games for each of Goff and Wentz which includes games from past years. Here are my reports on each:
Goff
Strengths:

• Great accuracy and touch on passes to all levels of the field. Will hit the strike zone consistently. Can drop the ball in the bucket on deep passes. Puts the ball in the correct spot for YAC. Doesn't throw with more velocity than is needed. Consistently throws the ball in a way to protect his WRs when possible.
• Outstanding pocket presence, movement, and poise under pressure. He's truly Luck caliber in his ability to maneuver the pocket, buy time, and find or create throwing lanes as a college passer. He has active, quick feet which allow him to set and reset quickly when moving and get the ball out in an instant. Dealt with a lot of pressure due to having a poor performing OL and constantly threw with defenders in his face or after he was forced off his spot.
• Top tier mental processing speed through his progressions and reads. Quick-minded player who can move through full-field reads with speed. Consistently can get to his 3rd or 4th progression when needed even when under fire. Rarely locks onto WRs. He also throws with great anticipation. He understands how to throw a WR open and how throws should be timed.
• Tough SOB. He took a beating throughout his career at Cal due to his OL and due to the team's lack of success. His defense was consistently one of the worst in the NCAA and forced Goff into shootouts. They went 1-11 his freshman year and 5-7 his sophomore year. Goff kept it together, never got discouraged, and helped Cal go 8-5 in his junior year. Some will blame Goff for his team not winning more but Cal's offense actually ranked 11th in points per game with 38.2 points per game scored his sophomore year...the problem was that their defense gave up 39.8 points per game. His junior year, the offense performed similarly with 37.8 points per game ranking 17th in the NCAA but the defense improved to allowing only 30.7 points per game which accounted for the team winning 8 games instead of 5. For those who knock Goff for not winning more, I have to wonder how a QB can compensate for a defense that allows nearly 40 points per game. Even Drew Brees has struggled to get New Orleans over the hump when their defense is among the worst in the NFL.
• Excellent intangibles. I have heard nothing but good things about Goff's work ethic, film habits, personality, leadership, and character. He's not an outgoing and outwardly confident at Wentz but Goff is the type of kid who is the first in and the last out by all reports and is popular among teammates. Goff was also responsible for running his offense at the LOS and received more responsibility at the LOS from his OC than any other QB who played under him.
• Checks all the physical boxes. Goff is 6'4" 215 with solid mobility, awesomely quick feet, and an above average arm. His hands are meet the minimum criteria in terms of size. And he's never missed a start due to an injury although he did suffer a separated shoulder in the last game of his freshman year at Cal.
• Great decision-maker. Goff is a lot like Peyton Manning in how you'd classify him. He's not a true gunslinger or a true game manager. He mixes elements of both but leans a tad more towards the gunslinger side of the coin. He's never shied away from testing tight coverage, he will take shots down the field, and he has a tremendous amount of confidence in his ability to fit throws into tight windows.
• Quick, natural release. Goff gets the ball out quickly and efficiently.

Weaknesses:

• Goff has a skinny frame and his hands are smaller than you'd like. He had some issues with fumbles during his career although it did seem to improve in his final year at Cal. There are some concerns that his frame will lead to durability issues in the NFL. It's possible.
• Goff will occasionally short-arm passes that he rushes which leads to inaccuracy. He also has some stretches of inconsistency when teams are able to throw him off his rhythm. He's definitely a rhythm passer. When he's on, he's lethal but he does have some stretches in games where he's off.
• Goff's arm is above average but it isn't elite. He won't be able to make some of the intermediate to deep sideline throws with zip at the NFL level against tight coverage. But there's a possibility that his arm strength will increase as he adds weight and physically matures.
• Goff can be fooled by underneath zone defenders at times which has led to interceptions. Will also force some passes knowing there is a risk of interception. Washington State got him once using a Cover-2 Trap. Goff went after the trap a few others times in the game and got away with it. He's definitely a guy who will take some risks.
• Hasn't had many big moments in his career. Cal hasn't been a contender and Goff hasn't had to make many drives in big, close games. He did it this year against Arizona State but it wasn't a game on a big stage.
• Goff played in an Air Raid variant so taking drops under center and learning a NFL playbook and NFL verbiage will be new to him.

Overall:

• Frankly, Goff doesn't have a lot of true weaknesses. He has some attributes that aren't strengths but they're more neutral than weaknesses. He's a polished passer who is extremely adept mentally and a great pure thrower. I've been smitten with him for over a year. Some will say that he resembles Bradford. And he does. He looks like college Bradford. Skinny kid who is a great pure thrower. But he's so much more advanced in the pocket than Bradford was. I hate to throw around this comparison but he really reminds me of Peyton Manning. Manning is the best QB I've seen play the game and one of my favorite players of all time so I don't throw that comparison around lightly. But he has feet, instincts, and movement in the pocket that are like Manning. And his coach even discusses how Goff studied Manning's feet and mannerisms in the pocket. What I see in Goff is a guy who I think will realistically pan out like Philip Rivers.(I can't say he'll pan out like Manning...it's just not fair to any player to expect that) He's not a dead-on comparison for Rivers as they have different body types, throwing motions, and demeanors. However, like Rivers, Goff has great movement and feel in the pocket, he is highly effective throwing vertically despite not possessing an elite arm, and he's a highly intelligent guy with a great feel for the game. I was reading an article where Goff was describing his thought process on a series of plays. He explained how he recognized that Stanford was playing a Cover-2, anticipated that their CB would not abandon his assignment to jump the underneath route because of his inexperience, and then showed a video of him making a perfect throw into the window created by the Stanford CB carrying the outside WR up the field rather than abandoning the assignment to jump the route the slot WR ran. Then Goff explained that the next time they ran that play in the same game, he expected the CB to not play the outside WR quite as tightly due to being burned once. Due to this, Goff threw the same route but released the ball a tick earlier and threw it to his WR's back hip to keep the CB from being able to jump the route, and then they showed the video of the throw being put on his WR's back hip a split second sooner and the CB trying to jump the route but failing because the ball was on the other side of the WR. What's my point here? Goff combines all the things you look for in a great QB into one skill-set. He's highly intelligent, he's deadly accurate, he has outstanding work habits, and he has amazing instincts in the pocket. I think he's a #1 overall caliber player and if we draft him, we'll win at least one Super Bowl with him as a our QB. You can bookmark this thread if you think that comment is too "optimistic."

Wentz
Strengths:

• Wentz is the most physically talented passer since Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick. We're talking about a 6'5" 235 pound QB with good mobility and a rifle for an arm. The day he steps onto the NFL field, he'll have one of the strongest arms in the NFL. This is a kid who can make any throw you ask him to. There is no throw off limits in an offense. You want a 15 yard out route from the opposite hash? He'll make the throw. You want a 60 yard hail mary bomb? He'll make the throw. He's got an unreal arm. We're talking Kaepernick, Newton, Cutler, Rodgers tier arm here.
• Wentz is a very accurate passer with the potential to be even more accurate in the future. He will make a lot of throws that make your jaw-drop because of his arm strength/accuracy combination. I saw him make throws to intermediate comebacks where the CB was blanketing the WR. I saw him make a throw down the seam that dropped perfectly between 3 defenders to his WR. And despite his arm strength, the touch is there. He'll put some mustard on shorter throws when the window is tight but he knows when to take something off the ball. And he needs to make a tough throw, he will. People have a far more negative impression of his deep ball than they should because he throws it with such good touch. He has slow WRs so he airs the ball out to allow them to adjust to it and make plays rather than trying to throw lasers that they won't be able to run under. People think that his deep ball will hang at times but it's by design. I've seen him throw passes 55 yards in the air on a line.
• Wentz's instincts in the pocket are good. He feels pressure, he reacts, and he does his best to escape pressure. Wentz doesn't drop his eyes. He doesn't get happy feet. He doesn't fear being hit. He has a good feel for pressure and knows when to get rid of the ball. He has great poise and composure in the pocket.
• Wentz is a great runner who is a legitimate threat to take off and pick up big chunks of yardage if the defense doesn't respect his legs. He isn't Kaepernick or RGIII fast but he has good vision, good agility, and is fearless (too much so, frankly).
• Wentz is an outstanding decision-maker who rarely forces balls into coverage. He will not hesitate to take risks or take shots down the field but he's not a guy who takes unjustifiable risks. And when he does take risks, he generally puts the ball in a spot where only his guy will make a play.
• Wentz's intelligence and intangibles are top notch. People have been raving about his work habits, leadership, intelligence, and character. He's the type of guy that NFL evaluators dream of at QB. He's a good ole boy who speaks with confidence, commands respect, studies hard in the classroom and the film room, and behaves himself off the field. Type of kid who is the first one in the building and the last to leave. And I've heard rumors that he has an insanely good memory and ability to retain information.
• Wentz played in a pro style run-first system that has a lot of similarities to the offense that the Rams currently run. He used verbiage similar to the verbiage used in the pros. He's a very pro ready player mentally and was responsible for running his pro style offense at the LOS (this included calling protections). Wentz made full-field reads, went through progressions with speed, and threw NFL routes.
• Wentz played in plenty of big moments and made a number of big time plays and big time drives in those games. There's no question of whether he can handle pressure or "clutch" situations. This is a kid who led a come from behind game winning drive with less than 2 minutes left down 4 in the FCS National Championship game during his first year as a starter. In the big moments, Wentz will step up.

Weaknesses:

• Wentz's lower body mechanics need a lot of refinement. Like Jameis Winston, he plays with too wide of a throwing base which constantly forces him to set and reset when he's forced off his spot and wastes precious time before he throws trying to get himself in a proper base. Wentz also is very inconsistent with his pocket movement. He flashes it from time to time but allows his feet to die too often in the pocket. He's got to keep his feet active and keep moving or he'll be a sitting duck in the NFL. He received consistent protection at NDSU from a talented OL so he was able to get away with picking a spot and staying there a lot of the time. Wentz's feet are also not as agile and light as Goff's.
• Wentz needs to be more deceptive with his eyes. He locks onto WRs at times and can get tunnel vision. He's definitely behind Goff in this category as Goff does a great job of moving defenders with his eyes and keeping from locking onto targets. Wentz got away with it in college because he has such a cannon for an arm but he needs to be more consistent using his eyes to move defenders or NFL defenders will pick on him as a rookie.
• Wentz needs to do a better job of protecting the ball when he runs and protecting himself. He took a lot of unnecessary hits at NDSU and ended up breaking his wrist due to that. He also fumbled quite a bit when he took off and ran. We can't have either of those things in the NFL because both are easily preventable.
• Wentz doesn't move as quickly and seamlessly through his progressions as Goff does. He'll lock onto WRs from time to time and be late to his second or third progression. But this is understandable as he has a lot less starting experience.
• Wentz played at the FCS level so he didn't perform against anywhere near the level of athletes he'll be facing at the NFL. That all said, he still threw against plenty of tight windows due to how unathletic his WRs were.

Overall:

• Wentz has bigger questions and is less polished than Goff. He's got some mechanical issues in his lower body that he'll have to work through although he did show significant improvement during the Senior Bowl and pre-draft process as a whole. However, Wentz is incredibly physically gifted and has all the requisite attributes needed to be great. He has the instincts and mental acuity. I don't see anything lacking in his skill-set aside from the correctable issues that I discussed above. He does have some similarities to Bradford in that he's not as fleet-footed as Goff in the pocket and didn't have to develop great pocket movement in college due to his protection but I think he has a better feel for pressure than Bradford did coming out and is more poised under pressure. Wentz's ceiling is sky high and he's a great fit for a run first offense. Especially one that wants to throw vertically. Wentz needs to protect himself in the NFL in order to stay healthy. Some people compare him to Big Ben but I don't really see the same game there. Ben is such a strong guy and unwilling to go down. Wentz doesn't have the same strength and tackle-breaking ability in the pocket. Personally, I think he's more like a young Carson Palmer. People may scoff at that who don't remember Palmer when he was younger before the catastrophic knee injury but Palmer actually ran a 4.65 40 coming out of college. My personal opinion is that, despite Wentz's athleticism, he shouldn't be used as a runner in the NFL. Like Palmer, he has the ability to be a great pocket passer. Develop him as a passer and protect him from injuries. If he has a seam, he can certainly run. Just make sure he knows to get down and protect himself. Wentz has some similarities to Bortles although I think he's more mentally polished than Bortles was. Ultimately though, I think he has Favre-caliber throwing ability. He doesn't have the gunslinger mindset that Favre has but he has that caliber of an arm and movement skills. I fully expect Wentz to be a top 10 QB in the NFL once he develops. One thing I loved reading about Wentz was the breakdown of the game winning TD he threw against Northern Iowa. In Wentz's first year as a starter, Northern Iowa kicked NDSU's ass. You knew Wentz wanted to get revenge. Northern Iowa got after Wentz and hit him a lot in that game. Wentz threw his first two INTs of the season in that game because their defense was playing so well. One of them was simply a bad decision under pressure. Down 4 with less than 2 minutes, Wentz drove NDSU almost 80 yards. On his final play, Wentz recognized that the defense was in Cover-1 man and recognized the blitz they were bringing so he changed the protection and audibled the play to take advantage of the match-up of his slot WR on the LB. Wentz threw a slot fade that the FS in Cover-1 couldn't get to and the LB covering the slot WR wasn't in position to defend for the game winning TD. It was equally impressive that he recognized the coverage early enough to change the concept and the blitz to change the protection as well as him also having the confidence to change the play and the protection in that sort of situation (45 seconds left in the game down by 4 just inside the red-zone). I think Wentz is every bit worth being the #2 pick and I expect whoever takes him will end up being very happy with him.

Those are my thoughts and why I slightly prefer Goff over Wentz. I think the Rams have a win-win decision on their hands. Both guys will be franchise QBs in the NFL. However, I think Goff is the more polished player and the less risky choice. Despite the offense he played in, he's a very developed QB who is ready to step in and make an immediate impact...and he's not lacking for upside either. No matter what happens on April 28th, this team has a bright future with Goff or Wentz at the helm.

Great write up. Can we pin this to the top until the draft is over?

The only thing I think you are off on is the Wentz to Bradford/Palmer comparison. I didn't scoff but based on what I see and hear, Wentz does really compare more to Roethlisberger/Bortles over any other NFL starting QBs, in that he is more mentally and physically developed than the other prospects (and most of those before). I've read a report or 2 that have even compared his command of the huddle/leadership to Luck's. That is the type of QB I want, one that will command the offense like a leader, and win. Goff is 21, skinny, and some reports have him acting slightly immature toward teammates.

Now on the flip side, I think Goff actually compares a lot more to Bradford/Stafford, especially if you take away Bradford's injuries. Read the reports, they're almost identical - it's actually sort of scary. I was reading back on Bradford's scouting report and the same things were said - deadly accurate, near perfect arm though arm strength just avg, good pocket presence, good athlete (ran a 4.79 40 remember..), better under center than given credit for (?), great feet in the pocket (?) etc. etc. (I know, these scouts were way wrong haha). Here is the nfl.com report: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sam-bradford?id=497095. I read a few others too.

When it comes down to it, I just want the one who can win us games and stay healthy. I'm just praying we don't draft a bust. But I feel like Wentz will strive with the rams better than Goff will, in my gut. In most cases with the draft it gets over looked that, the team makes the player most of the time.

 

[jrry32]

Great write up. Can we pin this to the top until the draft is over?

The only thing I think you are off on is the Wentz to Bradford/Palmer comparison. I didn't scoff but based on what I see and hear, Wentz does really compare more to Roethlisberger/Bortles over any other NFL starting QBs, in that he is more mentally and physically developed than the other prospects (and most of those before). I've read a report or 2 that have even compared his command of the huddle/leadership to Luck's. That is the type of QB I want, one that will command the offense like a leader, and win. Goff is 21, skinny, and some reports have him acting slightly immature toward teammates.

Ben is such a unique player. He's massive and very difficult to bring down. Wentz isn't that big or strong in the pocket. Wentz isn't a small guy but he doesn't have Ben's strength and tackle-breaking ability. Can't really compare him based on that. Ben is just too unique. It would be like comparing a QB with good mobility to Mike Vick. Just can't do that. Will take a really special player to get the Ben comparison. The guy in this class who breaks tackles like Ben is Jacoby Brissett but Brissett isn't a consistent enough thrower or consistent enough mentally at this point to earn that comparison.

Bortles is a closer comparison but Bortles had such a great feel in the pocket and really good movement as a prospect. Wentz isn't on his level in that regard. But it should be noted that I wasn't comparing Wentz to Bradford. Very different players. I was comparing Wentz's weaknesses in the pocket to Bradford's. Wentz has a lot in common with Palmer and Bortles. I'd say he's a mix of both guys.

I've not heard anything negative about Goff with teammates. Do you mind linking these reports? I'd like to read them.

Now on the flip side, I think Goff actually compares a lot more to Bradford/Stafford, especially if you take away Bradford's injuries. Read the reports, they're almost identical - it's actually sort of scary. I was reading back on Bradford's scouting report and the same things were said - deadly accurate, near perfect arm though arm strength just avg, good pocket presence, good athlete (ran a 4.79 40 remember..), better under center than given credit for (?), great feet in the pocket (?) etc. etc. (I know, these scouts were way wrong haha). Here is the nfl.com report: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sam-bradford?id=497095. I read a few others too.

Goff isn't similar at all to Stafford. Completely different players. Like I said, there are some similarities to Bradford but Goff is on a whole another level when it comes to pocket instincts, movement, and poise under pressure. He's among the best I've evaluated in those categories. Bradford wasn't. It's the one blind spot I had with Bradford. When he got the NFL, it became apparent how raw he was in that regard. He improved over time but he's never grown comfortable with pressure. He's a guy you have to keep clean.

When it comes down to it, I just want the one who can win us games and stay healthy. I'm just praying we don't draft a bust. But I feel like Wentz will strive with the rams better than Goff will, in my gut. In most cases with the draft it gets over looked that, the team makes the player most of the time.

Good news is that both will win us games and neither will be a bust.(imo) I don't really see either working harder or striving more than the other. Both guys have outstanding work habits and character.

 

[Mackeyser]

Here are some great examples of what make Goff special:
https://gifs.com/gif/W61WDx
https://gifs.com/gif/v2wmV5
https://gifs.com/gif/xkyoX3
https://gifs.com/gif/PNG631
https://gifs.com/gif/o2mAxB
https://gifs.com/gif/v2wmG0
https://gifs.com/gif/W61WMQ
(make sure to watch the last video because the work he does on that play for a first down is incredible)

I purposefully didn't pick big plays and scoring plays from that game.(trust me, there were some amazing throws for big plays/TDs in this game that I easily could have picked) I picked plays that seem like fairly run of the mill plays on the stat sheet. The reason I picked these plays is because they illustrate the things that Goff does that will make the biggest difference at the next level.

He's got bodies all around him and yet he's fully in control. He's moving with a purpose and always knows where his receivers are so he's ready to get the ball out to the open man as soon as he has enough time.

That's what wins you football games. The guy who can buy just that extra split second of time when the pocket is collapsing and hit his open WR with the ball.

And I recognize a few of these are check-downs but that's my point. Peyton Manning murders teams with check-downs. Because when he's under pressure, he always seems to know who is open. Goff has that same sort of ability. He's not too selfish. When he knows the pressure is coming, he'll hit his check-down guy. And he moves so quickly through his progressions and reads that he actually gives his check-down guy an opportunity to pick up yards after the catch.

Goff's instincts, movement, and poise in the pocket are special. He has a great feel for where throwing lanes are and an innate sense of where pressure is coming from. He has extremely quick feet which allow him to move quick and reset quickly to get the ball out. And the guy doesn't drop his eyes. He keeps his head on a swivel and knows exactly who to get the ball to as soon as he's bought enough time to get it out.

The guy's OL sucked. And it forced him to develop these skills. Thank the Lord it did. Because this is a kid who can step in right away and make the Rams OL look good.

You booger. The last gif doesn't load! LOL I get to the last one...Make sure to watch *click* ... (placeholder icon)... nooooooooo.

 

[den-the-coach]

The guy's OL sucked. And it forced him to develop these skills. Thank the Lord it did. Because this is a kid who can step in right away and make the Rams OL look good.

Counselor you made a great case and it appears the Rams will make Jared Thomas Goff the number one pick overall in the 2016 NFL draft. I am stoked and have visions of Super Bowl Victories dancing in my head.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Great write up. Can we pin this to the top until the draft is over?

The only thing I think you are off on is the Wentz to Bradford/Palmer comparison. I didn't scoff but based on what I see and hear, Wentz does really compare more to Roethlisberger/Bortles over any other NFL starting QBs, in that he is more mentally and physically developed than the other prospects (and most of those before). I've read a report or 2 that have even compared his command of the huddle/leadership to Luck's. That is the type of QB I want, one that will command the offense like a leader, and win. Goff is 21, skinny, and some reports have him acting slightly immature toward teammates.

Now on the flip side, I think Goff actually compares a lot more to Bradford/Stafford, especially if you take away Bradford's injuries. Read the reports, they're almost identical - it's actually sort of scary. I was reading back on Bradford's scouting report and the same things were said - deadly accurate, near perfect arm though arm strength just avg, good pocket presence, good athlete (ran a 4.79 40 remember..), better under center than given credit for (?), great feet in the pocket (?) etc. etc. (I know, these scouts were way wrong haha). Here is the nfl.com report: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sam-bradford?id=497095. I read a few others too.

When it comes down to it, I just want the one who can win us games and stay healthy. I'm just praying we don't draft a bust. But I feel like Wentz will strive with the rams better than Goff will, in my gut. In most cases with the draft it gets over looked that, the team makes the player most of the time.

I know alot of people won't agree with me but i think Fisher loved Sam. And if he wasn't so brittle he would still be with the Rams on a long term contract. So i can understand if he likes goff.

But he also loved McNair, probably much more than Sam. So i can understand if he likes Wentz.

I don't think this decision for them was easy either way.

.

 

[ausmurp]

Ben is such a unique player. He's massive and very difficult to bring down. Wentz isn't that big or strong in the pocket. Wentz isn't a small guy but he doesn't have Ben's strength and tackle-breaking ability. Can't really compare him based on that. Ben is just too unique. It would be like comparing a QB with good mobility to Mike Vick. Just can't do that. Will take a really special player to get the Ben comparison. The guy in this class who breaks tackles like Ben is Jacoby Brissett but Brissett isn't a consistent enough thrower or consistent enough mentally at this point to earn that comparison.

Bortles is a closer comparison but Bortles had such a great feel in the pocket and really good movement as a prospect. Wentz isn't on his level in that regard. But it should be noted that I wasn't comparing Wentz to Bradford. Very different players. I was comparing Wentz's weaknesses in the pocket to Bradford's. Wentz has a lot in common with Palmer and Bortles. I'd say he's a mix of both guys.

I've not heard anything negative about Goff with teammates. Do you mind linking these reports? I'd like to read them.



Goff isn't similar at all to Stafford. Completely different players. Like I said, there are some similarities to Bradford but Goff is on a whole another level when it comes to pocket instincts, movement, and poise under pressure. He's among the best I've evaluated in those categories. Bradford wasn't. It's the one blind spot I had with Bradford. When he got the NFL, it became apparent how raw he was in that regard. He improved over time but he's never grown comfortable with pressure. He's a guy you have to keep clean.



Good news is that both will win us games and neither will be a bust.(imo) I don't really see either working harder or striving more than the other. Both guys have outstanding work habits and character.

By the Ben/Bortles comparison, I should've also included Luck, and I was just pointing out that physically and mentally, he compares more to these guys. He's not elusive like Ben you are right. But as far as pre-draft top 10 QB prospects go, he is in that category (top tier physical and metal development) and there aren't a lot of others in that category.

Physically Goff compares to Bradford for sure, minus the injury. The slight build is concerning to me. I know he has not been injured, but his lack of muscle and physical ability could be an issue in the NFL though it was not in college. This is something we'll just have to wait to see.

I'll look for the links on the disgruntled teammate reports. Have you read about Wentz command and leadership though? It is said to be on a similar level to Andrew Luck. That could be a very important trait, agian we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[ausmurp]

I'm excited either way. Can't wait for draft day.

 

[Killgasm]

Here are some great examples of what make Goff special:
https://gifs.com/gif/W61WDx
https://gifs.com/gif/v2wmV5
https://gifs.com/gif/xkyoX3
https://gifs.com/gif/PNG631
https://gifs.com/gif/o2mAxB
https://gifs.com/gif/v2wmG0
https://gifs.com/gif/W61WMQ
(make sure to watch the last video because the work he does on that play for a first down is incredible)

I purposefully didn't pick big plays and scoring plays from that game.(trust me, there were some amazing throws for big plays/TDs in this game that I easily could have picked) I picked plays that seem like fairly run of the mill plays on the stat sheet. The reason I picked these plays is because they illustrate the things that Goff does that will make the biggest difference at the next level.

He's got bodies all around him and yet he's fully in control. He's moving with a purpose and always knows where his receivers are so he's ready to get the ball out to the open man as soon as he has enough time.

That's what wins you football games. The guy who can buy just that extra split second of time when the pocket is collapsing and hit his open WR with the ball.

And I recognize a few of these are check-downs but that's my point. Peyton Manning murders teams with check-downs. Because when he's under pressure, he always seems to know who is open. Goff has that same sort of ability. He's not too selfish. When he knows the pressure is coming, he'll hit his check-down guy. And he moves so quickly through his progressions and reads that he actually gives his check-down guy an opportunity to pick up yards after the catch.

Goff's instincts, movement, and poise in the pocket are special. He has a great feel for where throwing lanes are and an innate sense of where pressure is coming from. He has extremely quick feet which allow him to move quick and reset quickly to get the ball out. And the guy doesn't drop his eyes. He keeps his head on a swivel and knows exactly who to get the ball to as soon as he's bought enough time to get it out.

The guy's OL sucked. And it forced him to develop these skills. Thank the Lord it did. Because this is a kid who can step in right away and make the Rams OL look good.

They look like easy throws but the Rams last QBs have not been able to make them; they're either overthrown, underthtown, or they're pick 6's because of the pressure. This is why Goff is our guy.

 

[DB16]

Great read. And I agree with most of it, but not all.

However, on paper, Goff is the pick hands down. But I still like Wentz more due to his potential.

Either way, can't wait for April 28th to see who our franchise quarterback will be for me to support.

 

[jrry32]

You booger. The last gif doesn't load! LOL I get to the last one...Make sure to watch *click* ... (placeholder icon)... nooooooooo.

It loads for me. Don't know what's up.

 

[Mackeyser]

It loads for me. Don't know what's up.

I dunno either. Every other one loaded right away. It loaded now.

Good clips.

 

[Ladoc]

As those in the draft forum know, I've spent months watching the QBs in this draft to try and determine who the Rams should draft after seeing our struggles this year. I made it known in this forum (more than some appreciated) that I felt the Rams needed to grab a QB. Luckily, the Rams rewarded my temper tantrum of sorts.

For those who have only seen the highlights and read the scouting reports or heard from the talking head, I hope this is useful for you. I'm going to break down the strengths and weaknesses of each passer, compare them to a few NFL passers, and explain my preference for Goff over Wentz. For those of you who question where my report comes from, I watched between 12 and 20 games for each of Goff and Wentz which includes games from past years. Here are my reports on each:
Goff
Strengths:

• Great accuracy and touch on passes to all levels of the field. Will hit the strike zone consistently. Can drop the ball in the bucket on deep passes. Puts the ball in the correct spot for YAC. Doesn't throw with more velocity than is needed. Consistently throws the ball in a way to protect his WRs when possible.
• Outstanding pocket presence, movement, and poise under pressure. He's truly Luck caliber in his ability to maneuver the pocket, buy time, and find or create throwing lanes as a college passer. He has active, quick feet which allow him to set and reset quickly when moving and get the ball out in an instant. Dealt with a lot of pressure due to having a poor performing OL and constantly threw with defenders in his face or after he was forced off his spot.
• Top tier mental processing speed through his progressions and reads. Quick-minded player who can move through full-field reads with speed. Consistently can get to his 3rd or 4th progression when needed even when under fire. Rarely locks onto WRs. He also throws with great anticipation. He understands how to throw a WR open and how throws should be timed.
• Tough SOB. He took a beating throughout his career at Cal due to his OL and due to the team's lack of success. His defense was consistently one of the worst in the NCAA and forced Goff into shootouts. They went 1-11 his freshman year and 5-7 his sophomore year. Goff kept it together, never got discouraged, and helped Cal go 8-5 in his junior year. Some will blame Goff for his team not winning more but Cal's offense actually ranked 11th in points per game with 38.2 points per game scored his sophomore year...the problem was that their defense gave up 39.8 points per game. His junior year, the offense performed similarly with 37.8 points per game ranking 17th in the NCAA but the defense improved to allowing only 30.7 points per game which accounted for the team winning 8 games instead of 5. For those who knock Goff for not winning more, I have to wonder how a QB can compensate for a defense that allows nearly 40 points per game. Even Drew Brees has struggled to get New Orleans over the hump when their defense is among the worst in the NFL.
• Excellent intangibles. I have heard nothing but good things about Goff's work ethic, film habits, personality, leadership, and character. He's not an outgoing and outwardly confident at Wentz but Goff is the type of kid who is the first in and the last out by all reports and is popular among teammates. Goff was also responsible for running his offense at the LOS and received more responsibility at the LOS from his OC than any other QB who played under him.
• Checks all the physical boxes. Goff is 6'4" 215 with solid mobility, awesomely quick feet, and an above average arm. His hands are meet the minimum criteria in terms of size. And he's never missed a start due to an injury although he did suffer a separated shoulder in the last game of his freshman year at Cal.
• Great decision-maker. Goff is a lot like Peyton Manning in how you'd classify him. He's not a true gunslinger or a true game manager. He mixes elements of both but leans a tad more towards the gunslinger side of the coin. He's never shied away from testing tight coverage, he will take shots down the field, and he has a tremendous amount of confidence in his ability to fit throws into tight windows.
• Quick, natural release. Goff gets the ball out quickly and efficiently.

Weaknesses:

• Goff has a skinny frame and his hands are smaller than you'd like. He had some issues with fumbles during his career although it did seem to improve in his final year at Cal. There are some concerns that his frame will lead to durability issues in the NFL. It's possible.
• Goff will occasionally short-arm passes that he rushes which leads to inaccuracy. He also has some stretches of inconsistency when teams are able to throw him off his rhythm. He's definitely a rhythm passer. When he's on, he's lethal but he does have some stretches in games where he's off.
• Goff's arm is above average but it isn't elite. He won't be able to make some of the intermediate to deep sideline throws with zip at the NFL level against tight coverage. But there's a possibility that his arm strength will increase as he adds weight and physically matures.
• Goff can be fooled by underneath zone defenders at times which has led to interceptions. Will also force some passes knowing there is a risk of interception. Washington State got him once using a Cover-2 Trap. Goff went after the trap a few others times in the game and got away with it. He's definitely a guy who will take some risks.
• Hasn't had many big moments in his career. Cal hasn't been a contender and Goff hasn't had to make many drives in big, close games. He did it this year against Arizona State but it wasn't a game on a big stage.
• Goff played in an Air Raid variant so taking drops under center and learning a NFL playbook and NFL verbiage will be new to him.

Overall:

• Frankly, Goff doesn't have a lot of true weaknesses. He has some attributes that aren't strengths but they're more neutral than weaknesses. He's a polished passer who is extremely adept mentally and a great pure thrower. I've been smitten with him for over a year. Some will say that he resembles Bradford. And he does. He looks like college Bradford. Skinny kid who is a great pure thrower. But he's so much more advanced in the pocket than Bradford was. I hate to throw around this comparison but he really reminds me of Peyton Manning. Manning is the best QB I've seen play the game and one of my favorite players of all time so I don't throw that comparison around lightly. But he has feet, instincts, and movement in the pocket that are like Manning. And his coach even discusses how Goff studied Manning's feet and mannerisms in the pocket. What I see in Goff is a guy who I think will realistically pan out like Philip Rivers.(I can't say he'll pan out like Manning...it's just not fair to any player to expect that) He's not a dead-on comparison for Rivers as they have different body types, throwing motions, and demeanors. However, like Rivers, Goff has great movement and feel in the pocket, he is highly effective throwing vertically despite not possessing an elite arm, and he's a highly intelligent guy with a great feel for the game. I was reading an article where Goff was describing his thought process on a series of plays. He explained how he recognized that Stanford was playing a Cover-2, anticipated that their CB would not abandon his assignment to jump the underneath route because of his inexperience, and then showed a video of him making a perfect throw into the window created by the Stanford CB carrying the outside WR up the field rather than abandoning the assignment to jump the route the slot WR ran. Then Goff explained that the next time they ran that play in the same game, he expected the CB to not play the outside WR quite as tightly due to being burned once. Due to this, Goff threw the same route but released the ball a tick earlier and threw it to his WR's back hip to keep the CB from being able to jump the route, and then they showed the video of the throw being put on his WR's back hip a split second sooner and the CB trying to jump the route but failing because the ball was on the other side of the WR. What's my point here? Goff combines all the things you look for in a great QB into one skill-set. He's highly intelligent, he's deadly accurate, he has outstanding work habits, and he has amazing instincts in the pocket. I think he's a #1 overall caliber player and if we draft him, we'll win at least one Super Bowl with him as a our QB. You can bookmark this thread if you think that comment is too "optimistic."

Wentz
Strengths:

• Wentz is the most physically talented passer since Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick. We're talking about a 6'5" 235 pound QB with good mobility and a rifle for an arm. The day he steps onto the NFL field, he'll have one of the strongest arms in the NFL. This is a kid who can make any throw you ask him to. There is no throw off limits in an offense. You want a 15 yard out route from the opposite hash? He'll make the throw. You want a 60 yard hail mary bomb? He'll make the throw. He's got an unreal arm. We're talking Kaepernick, Newton, Cutler, Rodgers tier arm here.
• Wentz is a very accurate passer with the potential to be even more accurate in the future. He will make a lot of throws that make your jaw-drop because of his arm strength/accuracy combination. I saw him make throws to intermediate comebacks where the CB was blanketing the WR. I saw him make a throw down the seam that dropped perfectly between 3 defenders to his WR. And despite his arm strength, the touch is there. He'll put some mustard on shorter throws when the window is tight but he knows when to take something off the ball. And he needs to make a tough throw, he will. People have a far more negative impression of his deep ball than they should because he throws it with such good touch. He has slow WRs so he airs the ball out to allow them to adjust to it and make plays rather than trying to throw lasers that they won't be able to run under. People think that his deep ball will hang at times but it's by design. I've seen him throw passes 55 yards in the air on a line.
• Wentz's instincts in the pocket are good. He feels pressure, he reacts, and he does his best to escape pressure. Wentz doesn't drop his eyes. He doesn't get happy feet. He doesn't fear being hit. He has a good feel for pressure and knows when to get rid of the ball. He has great poise and composure in the pocket.
• Wentz is a great runner who is a legitimate threat to take off and pick up big chunks of yardage if the defense doesn't respect his legs. He isn't Kaepernick or RGIII fast but he has good vision, good agility, and is fearless (too much so, frankly).
• Wentz is an outstanding decision-maker who rarely forces balls into coverage. He will not hesitate to take risks or take shots down the field but he's not a guy who takes unjustifiable risks. And when he does take risks, he generally puts the ball in a spot where only his guy will make a play.
• Wentz's intelligence and intangibles are top notch. People have been raving about his work habits, leadership, intelligence, and character. He's the type of guy that NFL evaluators dream of at QB. He's a good ole boy who speaks with confidence, commands respect, studies hard in the classroom and the film room, and behaves himself off the field. Type of kid who is the first one in the building and the last to leave. And I've heard rumors that he has an insanely good memory and ability to retain information.
• Wentz played in a pro style run-first system that has a lot of similarities to the offense that the Rams currently run. He used verbiage similar to the verbiage used in the pros. He's a very pro ready player mentally and was responsible for running his pro style offense at the LOS (this included calling protections). Wentz made full-field reads, went through progressions with speed, and threw NFL routes.
• Wentz played in plenty of big moments and made a number of big time plays and big time drives in those games. There's no question of whether he can handle pressure or "clutch" situations. This is a kid who led a come from behind game winning drive with less than 2 minutes left down 4 in the FCS National Championship game during his first year as a starter. In the big moments, Wentz will step up.

Weaknesses:

• Wentz's lower body mechanics need a lot of refinement. Like Jameis Winston, he plays with too wide of a throwing base which constantly forces him to set and reset when he's forced off his spot and wastes precious time before he throws trying to get himself in a proper base. Wentz also is very inconsistent with his pocket movement. He flashes it from time to time but allows his feet to die too often in the pocket. He's got to keep his feet active and keep moving or he'll be a sitting duck in the NFL. He received consistent protection at NDSU from a talented OL so he was able to get away with picking a spot and staying there a lot of the time. Wentz's feet are also not as agile and light as Goff's.
• Wentz needs to be more deceptive with his eyes. He locks onto WRs at times and can get tunnel vision. He's definitely behind Goff in this category as Goff does a great job of moving defenders with his eyes and keeping from locking onto targets. Wentz got away with it in college because he has such a cannon for an arm but he needs to be more consistent using his eyes to move defenders or NFL defenders will pick on him as a rookie.
• Wentz needs to do a better job of protecting the ball when he runs and protecting himself. He took a lot of unnecessary hits at NDSU and ended up breaking his wrist due to that. He also fumbled quite a bit when he took off and ran. We can't have either of those things in the NFL because both are easily preventable.
• Wentz doesn't move as quickly and seamlessly through his progressions as Goff does. He'll lock onto WRs from time to time and be late to his second or third progression. But this is understandable as he has a lot less starting experience.
• Wentz played at the FCS level so he didn't perform against anywhere near the level of athletes he'll be facing at the NFL. That all said, he still threw against plenty of tight windows due to how unathletic his WRs were.

Overall:

• Wentz has bigger questions and is less polished than Goff. He's got some mechanical issues in his lower body that he'll have to work through although he did show significant improvement during the Senior Bowl and pre-draft process as a whole. However, Wentz is incredibly physically gifted and has all the requisite attributes needed to be great. He has the instincts and mental acuity. I don't see anything lacking in his skill-set aside from the correctable issues that I discussed above. He does have some similarities to Bradford in that he's not as fleet-footed as Goff in the pocket and didn't have to develop great pocket movement in college due to his protection but I think he has a better feel for pressure than Bradford did coming out and is more poised under pressure. Wentz's ceiling is sky high and he's a great fit for a run first offense. Especially one that wants to throw vertically. Wentz needs to protect himself in the NFL in order to stay healthy. Some people compare him to Big Ben but I don't really see the same game there. Ben is such a strong guy and unwilling to go down. Wentz doesn't have the same strength and tackle-breaking ability in the pocket. Personally, I think he's more like a young Carson Palmer. People may scoff at that who don't remember Palmer when he was younger before the catastrophic knee injury but Palmer actually ran a 4.65 40 coming out of college. My personal opinion is that, despite Wentz's athleticism, he shouldn't be used as a runner in the NFL. Like Palmer, he has the ability to be a great pocket passer. Develop him as a passer and protect him from injuries. If he has a seam, he can certainly run. Just make sure he knows to get down and protect himself. Wentz has some similarities to Bortles although I think he's more mentally polished than Bortles was. Ultimately though, I think he has Favre-caliber throwing ability. He doesn't have the gunslinger mindset that Favre has but he has that caliber of an arm and movement skills. I fully expect Wentz to be a top 10 QB in the NFL once he develops. One thing I loved reading about Wentz was the breakdown of the game winning TD he threw against Northern Iowa. In Wentz's first year as a starter, Northern Iowa kicked NDSU's ass. You knew Wentz wanted to get revenge. Northern Iowa got after Wentz and hit him a lot in that game. Wentz threw his first two INTs of the season in that game because their defense was playing so well. One of them was simply a bad decision under pressure. Down 4 with less than 2 minutes, Wentz drove NDSU almost 80 yards. On his final play, Wentz recognized that the defense was in Cover-1 man and recognized the blitz they were bringing so he changed the protection and audibled the play to take advantage of the match-up of his slot WR on the LB. Wentz threw a slot fade that the FS in Cover-1 couldn't get to and the LB covering the slot WR wasn't in position to defend for the game winning TD. It was equally impressive that he recognized the coverage early enough to change the concept and the blitz to change the protection as well as him also having the confidence to change the play and the protection in that sort of situation (45 seconds left in the game down by 4 just inside the red-zone). I think Wentz is every bit worth being the #2 pick and I expect whoever takes him will end up being very happy with him.

Those are my thoughts and why I slightly prefer Goff over Wentz. I think the Rams have a win-win decision on their hands. Both guys will be franchise QBs in the NFL. However, I think Goff is the more polished player and the less risky choice. Despite the offense he played in, he's a very developed QB who is ready to step in and make an immediate impact...and he's not lacking for upside either. No matter what happens on April 28th, this team has a bright future with Goff or Wentz at the helm.

Thank you for all that info! It is nicely done and very thorough. Some were worried about Goffs lack of arm strength (yet he has a stronger arm than Warner). This has already been posted but his velocity is higher than Wentz and this IS a measure of arm strength. When both are compared to top quarterbacks in the NFL they are more than favorable. This is comforting .
http://blogs.ourlads.com/2016/03/02/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2015/

 

[DR RAM]

Great, fair write up, and I'm with you on we will be a better team with either guy. I give a slight edge to Wentz, because he will be able to move the chains with his feet, and arm. Goff has a slightly faster processor, but Wentz isn't too far behind, and his arm makes up for some of it.

I think Wentz is more ready to play day 1, although I'm not saying Goff can't.

We win either way.