Bradford to vikings

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Q729

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What about Warner? I cheered for him as hard as when he was a Ram going for that elusive 2nd ring with the Cardinals after the Patsies cheated him and the Rams kicked him to the curb like spoiled meat.
Warner's a good guy and all, but I too couldn't have cared less after he left. I didn't really care for the Steelers, but I was hoping the Cardinals didn't win the Super Bowl. Part of the reason is the Cardinals should always suck worse than us. Same as the Seahawks. Unfortunately, the football gods are pricks.
 

LACHAMP46

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To me it's not that The Vikings made a Bad Move, It that Philly made a Stupid move!! JMO
Maybe they see something in Wentz....Clearly it's not Chase Daniels...He's looked almost awful in the preseason, imo.....

Wentz is indeed the real deal...Looked like a young Elway in his one PS game....running around...gunning throws...exciting....

Once I realized we moved to 1 and we're going to take one of these guys, I started watching games. Not highlight reels.
Games matter, of course...but measurables matter more...You have to project how a guy will perform, and develop around superior athletes that they play with in college...No matter the level...It's why arm talent is huge in my book...Smaller windows and all...It's why I like a solid frame...football is a contact sport..Injuries HAPPEN...and the scrambling/athletic thing, well, just look around..It's hard to find a true pocket QB...It's easier to develop the pocket presence, while moving the ball if need be by scrambling...
I never understood why ROD members preferred one player over the other, if not based entirely on physical attributes.....I think looking at games is only a small part of an eval...or should be...find the best player regardless of circumstances...eye test...and if you can find out any info into a players intellect, that seems to help a bunch too...
Wentz seems to possess the ability to process information quickly...look at him when the play breaks down...ball snapped and a free rusher..no problem..and has that cannon arm, with the mobility...He's gonna start opening day...with only one preseason game...think about that...if he does well...I won't be shocked in the least. Hell, don't they play Cleveland?
 

Dodgersrf

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Maybe they see something in Wentz....Clearly it's not Chase Daniels...He's looked almost awful in the preseason, imo.....

Wentz is indeed the real deal...Looked like a young Elway in his one PS game....running around...gunning throws...exciting....

Games matter, of course...but measurables matter more...You have to project how a guy will perform, and develop around superior athletes that they play with in college...No matter the level...It's why arm talent is huge in my book...Smaller windows and all...It's why I like a solid frame...football is a contact sport..Injuries HAPPEN...and the scrambling/athletic thing, well, just look around..It's hard to find a true pocket QB...It's easier to develop the pocket presence, while moving the ball if need be by scrambling...
I never understood why ROD members preferred one player over the other, if not based entirely on physical attributes.....I think looking at games is only a small part of an eval...or should be...find the best player regardless of circumstances...eye test...and if you can find out any info into a players intellect, that seems to help a bunch too...
Wentz seems to possess the ability to process information quickly...look at him when the play breaks down...ball snapped and a free rusher..no problem..and has that cannon arm, with the mobility...He's gonna start opening day...with only one preseason game...think about that...if he does well...I won't be shocked in the least. Hell, don't they play Cleveland?
All the attributes you stated are why I prefer Goff.
Goff played well under pressure. He put the ball in tight windows. He processed information very quickly. He stood tall in the poket and threw the ball down field, knowing he was going to get hit. He took a losing organization and made them respectable.

I like Wentz as well. He just didn't have the experience Goff has had. His team also suffered little drop off when he was injured. They won without him. Then throw in the fact that he has had injuries is something that concerned me. Goff has been healthy his entire college career as far as I know.

I like both guys. I just prefer Goff.
I do admit that pure pocket passers have a tougher time early in their pro careers due to the fact that they can't just take off running when they feel pressure or get lost. Comparing Goff to guys like Wilson and Kap would be unfair. He's probably looking at a first-year more like P.Manning or Aikmen. Pretty rough.
 

kurtfaulk

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All the attributes you stated are why I prefer Goff.
Goff played well under pressure. He put the ball in tight windows. He processed information very quickly. He stood tall in the poket and threw the ball down field, knowing he was going to get hit. He took a losing organization and made them respectable.

I like Wentz as well. He just didn't have the experience Goff has had. His team also suffered little drop off when he was injured. They won without him. Then throw in the fact that he has had injuries is something that concerned me. Goff has been healthy his entire college career as far as I know.

I like both guys. I just prefer Goff.
I do admit that pure pocket passers have a tougher time early in their pro careers due to the fact that they can't just take off running when they feel pressure or get lost. Comparing Goff to guys like Wilson and Kap would be unfair. He's probably looking at a first-year more like P.Manning or Aikmen. Pretty rough.

Well said.

.
 

dieterbrock

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Ayup. I was kind of amazed at how quickly I could stop caring about him once he was traded, since I had invested so much energy into debating about him prior to that. I guess once a player exits the premises, I couldn't really care less what he does or doesn't do. Actually, that's not true. I cared about Isaac Bruce when he was unceremoniously forced out of here. Never rooted for him over there, but I did continue to admire the guy.
Being traded to Philly, I still felt invested in him because the worse Philly record, the better our 2nd rounder would be. In addition, I live in a predominant Eagles territory so I couldn't escape it...
But now his success/failure has no impact on the Rams, so I'd like to see the kid play well
 

Warner4Prez

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Maybe they see something in Wentz....Clearly it's not Chase Daniels...He's looked almost awful in the preseason, imo.....

Wentz is indeed the real deal...Looked like a young Elway in his one PS game....running around...gunning throws...exciting....

Games matter, of course...but measurables matter more...You have to project how a guy will perform, and develop around superior athletes that they play with in college...No matter the level...It's why arm talent is huge in my book...Smaller windows and all...It's why I like a solid frame...football is a contact sport..Injuries HAPPEN...and the scrambling/athletic thing, well, just look around..It's hard to find a true pocket QB...It's easier to develop the pocket presence, while moving the ball if need be by scrambling...
I never understood why ROD members preferred one player over the other, if not based entirely on physical attributes.....I think looking at games is only a small part of an eval...or should be...find the best player regardless of circumstances...eye test...and if you can find out any info into a players intellect, that seems to help a bunch too...
Wentz seems to possess the ability to process information quickly...look at him when the play breaks down...ball snapped and a free rusher..no problem..and has that cannon arm, with the mobility...He's gonna start opening day...with only one preseason game...think about that...if he does well...I won't be shocked in the least. Hell, don't they play Cleveland?
But dat footwork?

I'm in ND, wanted Wentz not only for the novelty, but because I've seen him play and know what he is and what he's capable of. He's off the charts when it comes to ability.

My biggest gripe though, Goff never played under center. So, trade the farm for him to come and QB a run heavy team?...Just doesn't jive well with me.

It's water under the bridge though. I'm hoping he learns the ropes and takes those reins like John Wayne.
 

OC--LeftCoast

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This is a good article because I agree with it. ;)

It's a little long but well written and he constructs a pretty good case.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/pag...-smart-general-managers-make-odd-decisions-qb

Just when you thought it was safe to head to the beach or watch some tennis during the summer's last long weekend, the NFL reminded you on Saturday morning that its phones never turn off. The Eagles and Vikings consummated a fun, fascinating trade just days before the season begins, with Philly sending starting quarterback Sam Bradford to Minnesota for a 2017 first-round pick and a conditional fourth-round pick in 2018. It's a remarkable turn of events for a pair of teams with two of the more intelligent and aggressive general managers in all of football. In both their cases, though, we can see just how the rules for quarterbacks and the rules for decision-making at all other positions are entirely different.

Vikings general manager Rick Spielman has done an incredible job building a deep, young roster in Minnesota, mostly sticking to what would count as NFL personnel best practices. He's built through his lines, tried to amass extra draft picks by trading down and mostly stayed out of free agency. When he's veered from those principles in the past, he's avoided making the mistake again. The notable example there is when he traded up in 2013, sending second-, third-, fourth- and seventh-round picks to New England to draft Cordarrelle Patterson, with the Patriots using the selections to acquire Jamie Collins, Logan Ryan andLeGarrette Blount, Blount coming via trade.

Since then, by my count, Spielman has made 10 draft pick-for-pick trades. Eight of them were trades to move down. He traded the 240th pick to move up eight spots in the sixth round of this year's draft, about as modest of a trade-up as you can imagine, while his other trade up was at the end of the first round forTeddy Bridgewater. The price was much more amenable -- a lone fourth-round pick -- to make the trade, but the target was a quarterback. Even if Bridgewater never plays again (and he will), it was one of the few trade-ups which worked.

With extra third- and fourth-round picks in the 2017 draft coming his way from the Dolphins, Spielman has made his most curious and aggressive move since the Patterson trade. It tells us a lot about how he perceives his team and their short-term chances to compete and how desperate Minnesota was for a passer. As much as I suggested the Vikings could get by with Shaun Hill at quarterback, it's clear Spielman and coach Mike Zimmer don't agree. (Given that they're watching Hill every day in practice and realize how bad things would be if Hill himself got injured, they deserve at least some benefit of the doubt here.)

Hill has been a better quarterback than Bradford by every single statistical measure I can find over the course of their respective careers, including quarterback rating (45.6 for Hill to Bradford's 40.5), but the differences are modest and Hill is eight years older. Bradford should give the Vikings a higher floor than the one they had with Hill, especially given the possibility that Hill might have been injured and the Vikings might have been forced into playingTaylor Heinicke or Joel Stave.

comfortable checking the ball down, though his completion percentage on passes within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage as a pro is actually below league average (66.5 percent against an average of 69.1 percent).

That's where you start getting into the problems with Bradford.

He's not Bridgewater in terms of his accuracy, as the former Louisville star completed 73.2 percent of his passes in that same 10-yard bracket during his first two professional seasons. Bradford is not going to threaten teams with his feet in even the modest way that Bridgewater has as a pro, limiting the effectiveness of those RPOs. And the former first overall pick is a perennial injury risk himself, having missed 33 of 96 possible starts during his six-year pro career.

If there was a ceiling to Bradford's game, maybe this would make more sense, but if Bradford was going to break out, wouldn't it have happened by now? I've seen suggestions that Bradford elevated his game during the final few weeks of the 2015 season after returning from an injury, but I'm skeptical. Bradford's numbers did improve over his final five games -- he completed 67 percent of his passes, averaged 7.3 yards per attempt and threw eight touchdowns against four picks while averaging 286 yards per contest -- but his QBR over that stretch was still a 49.7, which was just below Johnny Manziel for 22nd.

Look closer at that stretch and a lot of the gloss wears off. He beat the Patriots in a game in which he threw for 120 yards and the New England special teams self-destructed. He threw for 247 yards and a touchdown against a Bills pass defense missingStephon Gilmore, their top corner. Bradford went for 368 and two touchdowns against the Cardinals, but it was in a 23-point loss in which Bradford also threw two picks and lost a fumble. He lost another fumble for a touchdown against Washington in a 14-point loss, in a game that needed 56 attempts to get to 380 yards. Bradford finished with 320 yards and two touchdowns (with a pick) against the Giants, who had the league's fifth-worst pass defense. It's also a five-game stretch amid a six-year career that has suggested Bradford's a below-average starting quarterback. This isn't even a Josh McCown-level flash.

McCown is an interesting name to bring up because he's one of the quarterbacks Minnesota likely inquired about in trades. Spielman suggested several days ago that teams were asking for crazy things in return for a quarterback. Given that Cleveland just got a fourth-round pick as part of a swap for punter Andy Lee, it wouldn't surprise me if they asked for much more in return for McCown. Other teams likely felt equally as precious about the likes of Brian Hoyer and Mike Glennon.

If that were the case, you can probably figure out how the Vikings contorted themselves into making this trade. If they felt it was absolutely necessary to acquire a veteran quarterback and had to have one by the end of the weekend, Minnesota very well might have thought that it was better to give up first- and fourth-round picks for Bradford than, say, a second-rounder for McCown or Glennon. I don't think that logic is sound or justifiable, but it is comprehensible.

The acquisition of Bradford also speaks to the possibility that Bridgewater might not be ready for 2017. Glennon would have been a free agent after the year, while McCown will be 38 and might not be worth keeping around. The same could be true of Bradford, but after this trade, the Vikings have him on a relatively friendly contract. Bradford's cap hit for 2016 is $7 million, and the Vikings basically have a one-year unguaranteed option for Bradford for 2017 at $17 million. If Bradford plays well this year, Minnesota could have franchised him next year for something in the $20 million range, but that would have been guaranteed money. Now they can wait and see how Bridgewater's knee heals. If he's ready, given this market, it's fair to say that they'll likely find a trade partner to recoup something from the Bradford deal.

As for the Eagles, their second contract with Bradford comes to a premature end. They paid Bradford $11 million in bonuses as part of his two-year, $35 million deal, with $5.5 million of that just hitting Bradford's bank account on Thursday. They incurred the opportunity cost of starting Bradford throughout training camp and the preseason without handing those reps to Chase Daniel or first-round pick Carson Wentz (who probably wouldn't have taken them anyway with his rib injury), but essentially that $11 million paid for first- and fourth-round picks.

Most NFL teams would happily pay $11 million for a mid-first round pick if they had the opportunity. (In fact, I wonder whether a team like the Browns might think about signing a veteran quarterback each offseason in the future for the sole intent of trading them in August.) The selection is even more valuable for the Eagles, who are pick-starved after the deal to trade up and grab Wentz. Their first-round pick in 2017, now the property of Cleveland, is likely to be more valuable than the one they've acquired from Minnesota, but to keep things simple, let's cancel out those two 2017 first-round picks and the fourth-rounder they sent in 2016 for the fourth-rounder they're getting from Minnesota.

Including the Dolphins trade, you can make the argument that Philly got Wentz and what will end up as a fourth-round pick from the Browns for their 2016 first- and third-round picks, a 2018 second-rounder, two players they didn't want (Byron Maxwell and Kiko Alonso) and the $11 million cost of holding onto Bradford. I don't know if that's a good trade, necessarily, but it's far more palatable than the Wentz deal in a vacuum.

Reports suggest the Eagles will turn to Wentz immediately as their starter if he's physically able to play, which seems aggressive. Wentz has missed most of the past three weeks of the preseason with a hairline fracture in his ribs, limiting his work in practice while preventing him from playing. Wentz suggested he wouldbe ready for Week 1, but why rush him back into the lineup when you paid Chase Daniel $12 million in guarantees for this exact situation? If Wentz isn't physically ready, you run the risk of being forced to bench him for subpar play amid the famously forgiving Philly fan base, which won't do wonders for his reputation. If Wentz had been so convincing as to justify the No. 1 spot before the injury, the Eagles would have been giving him the No. 1 reps then, too. I have to admit that I don't see the harm in giving Daniel a couple of weeks as the starter before turning things over to Wentz permanently when he's physically ready.

The same is true for Bradford in Minnesota. Vikings fans surely remember the lone disastrous start of Josh Freeman in purple and white, a Monday night game against the Giants in which Freeman went 20-of-53 for 190 yards while posting a 6.5 QBR. That start came two weeks after Freeman had been signed by the team, leaving him precious days to learn the playbook and Minnesota scheme, let alone develop any timing or rapport with his receivers. Freeman suffered a concussion late in the game and never played again for the Vikings.

Bradford can't start in Week 1. It would be even more foolish and a quicker time frame than the one the Vikings gave Freeman, which was itself far too short. We're eight days out from Minnesota's opener at Tennessee and 15 from their home opener against Green Bay, the exact number of his days Freeman had before his start. Do you bring Bradford in then? Could he realistically even be ready? What about the following Sunday, when the Vikings travel to Carolina? That's still probably too soon, but I don't think Minnesota can realistically wait any longer. Even as you move on to the Giants game in Week 4, he's still going to be learning all of this on the fly as Bradford (and Turner) prepare for each week's specific matchup.

The problem of Bradford being totally unfamiliar with Turner and his new scheme is why I think the most popular argument in favor of this trade doesn't make much sense. Smart people around the NFL have suggested that the Vikings needed to make this trade because they needed to compete whileAdrian Peterson is still in his prime, and while I can understand the argument, I don't know how much the deal really helps.

When Bradford has played in places where he had months and years to prepare, he hasn't been very good. What is going to click for Bradford in Minnesota (on no notice) which hasn't clicked for him elsewhere? After years of disappointing, as he figures his scheme out on the fly, why would he be any better in Minnesota?

If anything, the most plausible outcome is that Bradford plays worse than he has elsewhere. Minnesota made this deal out of desperation to try to ensure a level of certainty at quarterback in an attempt to save their 2016. In acquiring Bradford, the Vikings are likely getting a certainty, but not the one they want.


Moth's to a flame

Hell, it's not a real Bradford thread until you weigh in and...urinate? on it :LOL:
 

LesBaker

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Lol. Whut? These chosen #s are as random as they are meaningless without context.

In 2015, Teddy completed 67,5% of his passes in the 1-10yard range on 212 attempts. Sam did 68.7% in 252 attempts.

His deep ball accuracy was aid as well.

Sam went 7-14 in balls 31+ yards downfield. 50%. Don't need to look that up to say that's prolly top 10 or better. No INTs in that range either. 5TDs

50% in the 11-20 range. 8TDs, 8INTs. On a team dropping balls left and right.

Teddy was 2-13 in the 31+ range with a TD and an INT.

Both bad 21-30.

Teddy has a slight edge in the 11-20 zone. But only accuracy.

Screens behind the line aren't even worth mentioning.

Suffice to say, Sam will provide a dimension the Queens haven't had since Favre.

A deep ball. Provided WR chemistry, they will have a superior O this year if Sam adapts quickly enough.

Deep ball threat will in turn mean a slight increase in AP production as they now have to defend against it.

freak ESPN.

You didn't really read the article did you.

There is nothing wrong with being a fan of Bradford, but reality at some point has to set in.

He's average, and that's what the absolute facts are.

I feel like I am in a discussion about Testeverde sometimes.
 

LesBaker

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But dat footwork?

I'm in ND, wanted Wentz not only for the novelty, but because I've seen him play and know what he is and what he's capable of. He's off the charts when it comes to ability.

My biggest gripe though, Goff never played under center. So, trade the farm for him to come and QB a run heavy team?...Just doesn't jive well with me.

It's water under the bridge though. I'm hoping he learns the ropes and takes those reins like John Wayne.

!. They didn't actually trade the farm.

2. They aren't a run heavy team. Even with 2nd and 3rd string QB's they pass a lot more than they throw.
 

So Ram

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Wow. Good for them. I hope Bradford excels in their offense. The Vikings better run a lot of max protect.

You can laugh all you want !! From a NFL fan stand point. This Minnisota Villings team is for real !! They actually have a chance to win the Super Bowl .

Sam Bradford is a very solid QB.
 

LesBaker

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Moth's to a flame

Hell, it's not a real Bradford thread until you weigh in and...urinate? on it :LOL:

Maybe, but nobody outside of a few Rams fans think he is much of a QB and lost Rams fans don't think that either.

There's 11 pages in this thread..........not everyone thinks the Vikings scores a win here OK.
 

So Ram

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You didn't really read the article did you.

There is nothing wrong with being a fan of Bradford, but reality at some point has to set in.

He's average, and that's what the absolute facts are.

I feel like I am in a discussion about Testeverde sometimes.

Vinney was fun to watch. I'm really hopefully this trade went down ? All I know is I love a veteran QB. I really like the working relationship he will have in the QB film room.
 

JRobinson

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You can laugh all you want !! From a NFL fan stand point. This Minnisota Villings team is for real !! They actually have a chance to win the Super Bowl .

Sam Bradford is a very solid QB.

Dude, was there a "laughing emoji" anywhere? Sure, there was sarcasm; but there is truth to every sarcasm. The Vikings, who I actually like a lot, will absolutely need to 'Max protect' Sam.
 

Athos

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You didn't really read the article did you.

There is nothing wrong with being a fan of Bradford, but reality at some point has to set in.

He's average, and that's what the absolute facts are.

I feel like I am in a discussion about Testeverde sometimes.

I did and it was a waste of time. Bradford is a better QB than Teddy and the only thing he can do is run a bit.

But Sam is lethal on the bootleg. Like I said, we'll see how Bradford adapts on a quality team with a top five D, a WR like Diggs, AP, and a user friendly O.

Queens O will be better than a Teddy O providing his acclimation goes smoothly.

And "average" is currently better than anything the Rams are throwing out there right now.
 

So Ram

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Dude, was there a "laughing emoji" anywhere? Sure, there was sarcasm; but there is truth to every sarcasm. The Vikings, who I actually like a lot, will absolutely need to 'Max protect' Sam.

Why ?? Philly didn't ?? Bradford in my opinion looked a lot better towards the end of last season.He has better pocket presence than I've ever seen from him as well.
He has the best RB (besides Gurley)in the game behind him as well. To me I think that allows him more passing options. I saw Teddy play a couple times. I think Sam Bradford is a better QB.I also think Minnisota is in a prime postition to win. The field goal missed in Playoffs last season will only make them hungrier.
 

LACHAMP46

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My biggest gripe though, Goff never played under center.
Interesting...huh...
He processed information very quickly.
And Dodgersrf thinks he's processing info very quickly...hmmm, fumbling a snap from the shotgun does not show me a quick thinker, rather, someone whose mind is moving too quickly...info overload...tripping over your OG's feet and fumbling..same...
I do see the ability to stand in there and deliver an accurate ball...His throwing is pro-level...
Look at him when he does play again...probably sooner than many in here expect...If he's still staring down his receivers, IMO, the game is still moving too fast for him to understand what's really going on...He's not processing everything...not as well as someone that's aware of his surroundings, and able to calmly, but quickly scan the field....make a decision, and deliver the ball to the right target...
 

Dodgersrf

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Interesting...huh...
And Dodgersrf thinks he's processing info very quickly...hmmm, fumbling a snap from the shotgun does not show me a quick thinker, rather, someone whose mind is moving too quickly...info overload...tripping over your OG's feet and fumbling..same...
I do see the ability to stand in there and deliver an accurate ball...His throwing is pro-level...
Look at him when he does play again...probably sooner than many in here expect...If he's still staring down his receivers, IMO, the game is still moving too fast for him to understand what's really going on...He's not processing everything...not as well as someone that's aware of his surroundings, and able to calmly, but quickly scan the field....make a decision, and deliver the ball to the right target...
Agree. When your learning, your not processing the field, your thinking.
Once he learns the offense, he'll be able to play without thinking. He'll be able to see the field better and make the quick decion capability he exhibited in college.

He'll definitely be able to process info better than my auto correct. Which doesn't even recognize the term auto correct.
 

Warner4Prez

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!. They didn't actually trade the farm.

2. They aren't a run heavy team. Even with 2nd and 3rd string QB's they pass a lot more than they throw.
It wasn't quite the farm, but most of the 2016 draft and a 1st and 3rd next year is quite a bit for a team that will see a mass exodus of defensive talent over the next couple years.
Brockers, Ogletree, Johnson McDonald, Donald and Gaines will all need to be accounted for over the next couple of seasons, and the premium capital has been doled out.

You could argue they aren't a run heavy team, but they ended the season bottom 5 in pass play percentage and top 5 in run play percentage. I fully anticipate the offensive staff trying to gradually head the other direction, but again it's a process that will be slowed down by the new QB's learning curve.
 

FarNorth

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Maybe, but nobody outside of a few Rams fans think he is much of a QB and lost Rams fans don't think that either.

There's 11 pages in this thread..........not everyone thinks the Vikings scores a win here OK.
Pat Schurmer and Norv Turner beg to differ. But what do they know?