Balzer talkin sense.... on you know what

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Accountability for Saints Mess Goes Higher Than Williams
By Howard Balzer

Published: March 07, 2012 @ 12:36am
Howard Balzer is the Managing Editor and Lead Columnist for 101Sports.com and host of "Pro Football Sunday" on 101 ESPN. Contact him via email at HBalzer@101espn.com and follow him on twitter @HBalzer721.
http://www.101sports.com/category/hbalz ... -Williams/

Random thoughts while stunned at the lack of perspective from the lynch-mob mentality that somehow believes Gregg Williams is the devil incarnate ...

My reference to the player or players that ratted out his one-time teammates as “a snitch” generated a reaction from those that said a better term is “whistle-blower.”

I beg to differ. First, there have been other players that consider them snitches. More important, a whistle-blower is someone that tries to stop something before it happens, or at the very least, looks to stop it when it’s gotten out of hand.

It’s fair to assume that didn’t happen.

That “apology” from Saints coach Asshole Face and general manager Mickey Loomis sure sounded sincere, didn’t it?

Especially when their apology was to their boss, owner Thomas Benson. Heck, they could have gone to his office and done that. Their 101-word statement was just as much PR as commissioner Roger Goodell’s reaction to this whole mess.

And how is it that all the sanctimonious calls for a lifetime ban for Williams aren’t also advocating the same fate for Payton? He knew about it, condoned it, and did nothing to stop it. In fact, Goodell has numerous emails between Payton and convicted felon Mike Ornstein, who bank-rolled some of the bounties.

Ornstein once worked for the NFL in marketing, but was nabbed for trying to defraud the league to the tune of $350,000. He engineered a scheme involving fraudulent invoices. That led to a guilty plea for mail fraud and he served four months home confinement, five years probation and paid the league $160,000 in restitution.

Wait; there’s more. He got involved with Reggie Bush when he was at Southern Cal and was a party to the improper benefits Bush received. He ended up in New Orleans after Bush was drafted, and became a friend and confidant of Payton. The New Orleans Time-Picayune once wrote, “While not an official employee of the Saints, Ornstein has been a fixture at practices, games and in the locker room since the Saints drafted Bush in April 2006. He often wears team gear and is a regular presence on the sideline and on the field during practices.”

He later got in trouble with the law again involving Super Bowl tickets and trading cards with fake letters of authenticity.

And somehow Williams is the only bad guy in this because he got carried away with a system that didn’t result in significantly more penalties or fines than other teams for illegal hits?


Still, here’s the one aspect I’m really having a hard time grasping: How is it that anyone can somehow consider this situation much worse than what Bill Belichick orchestrated in New England?

The Patriots were involved in a consistent system for numerous years of cheating to gain a competitive advantage over their opponents. Most amazing is that after the Patriots turned over their tapes to the NFL, Goodell had them destroyed.

For their transgressions, Belichick was fined $500,000, the Patriots $250,000 and the team forfeited a first-round pick. That’s it. No suspensions, not even one game. Yet, most everyone expects the punishments to be much worse now. Why?

How is it that anyone can make a coherent argument that paying bonuses to players for what they do anyway is somehow worthy of a suspension for Williams of a year, which many believe Goodell will rule?

Goodell professes to be tough on player safety, but despite all the fines for illegal hits in the last two seasons, only two players, Lions defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh and Steelers linebacker James Harrison, have been suspended. Suh’s actions were so egregious, Goodell didn’t have a choice. But Harrison got one game after being hit with fines in multiple games.

Yet, there are those that believe the Steelers have been victimized, and fined unfairly, while Harrison consistently says he won’t change the way he plays and his coach defends him.

But Gregg Williams is the dangerous monster that must be stopped.
 

Selassie I

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Basically what I've been saying.

The speculation of an 8, 16, or more game suspension is just the media pulling #s out of their ass.

The HC and GM should receive equal penalties to Greg.
 

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Funny thing is, what's going to happen to Ornstein ? I don't see what the league can do to him, and I don't see any laws broken.
 

Selassie I

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Ornstein's very public presence says a lot about the values and beliefs of the owner and head coach of the aint franchise.
 

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Selassie I said:
Basically what I've been saying.

The speculation of an 8, 16, or more game suspension is just the media pulling #s out of their ass.

The HC and GM should receive equal penalties to Greg.
Exactly right. If Payton doesn't get the same thing Williams does, then this whole thing is a farce. That said, if the Commissioner doesn't want to hurt Payton (the more high-profile public figure), then Williams may get off with just a fat dent to his wallet and a few games off.
 

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Pretty obvious that this is a PR witch hunt being conducted as Goodell's personal vendetta. I would really like to see some reporters actually hit on that.
 

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RamFan503 said:
Pretty obvious that this is a PR witch hunt being conducted as Goodell's personal vendetta. I would really like to see some reporters actually hit on that.
You've hit a big nail on the head there, as the league is a big machine now that ALL the sportswriters basically work for directly, or indirectly. Going against the NFL PR machine would almost certainly mean a huge hit to a sports writers prestige, and maybe even the end of their career. That's one of the big reasons I absolutely never ever trust the media hype coming out of this machine, for its merely management of public perception.
 

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interference said:
RamFan503 said:
Pretty obvious that this is a PR witch hunt being conducted as Goodell's personal vendetta. I would really like to see some reporters actually hit on that.
You've hit a big nail on the head there, as the league is a big machine now that ALL the sportswriters basically work for directly, or indirectly. Going against the NFL PR machine would almost certainly mean a huge hit to a sports writers prestige, and maybe even the end of their career. That's one of the big reasons I absolutely never ever trust the media hype coming out of this machine, for its merely management of public perception.

Not at all.

This is the real deal and for good reason.

For one thing this has nothing to do with "hits"--that's a side topic.

Non-contract awards for players are illegal in the NFL. They violate both the league constitution and the CBA.

They don't even have to lead to injuries. Merely the OFFER is illegal.

The NFL has a longstanding rule prohibiting “Non-Contract Bonuses.” Non-contract bonuses violate both the NFL Constitution and By-Laws and the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Clubs are advised every year of this rule in a memo from the commissioner. Citing Sections 9.1(C)(8), and 9.3(F) and (G) of the Constitution and By-Laws, the memo for the 2011 season stated:

“No bonus or award may directly or indirectly be offered, promised, announced, or paid to a player for his or his team’s performance against a particular team or opposing player or a particular group thereof. No bonuses or awards may be offered or paid for on field misconduct (for example, personal fouls to or injuries inflicted on opposing players).”

They are illegal for a couple of reasons.

1. Dancing around the cap sets a bad precedent. Keep that loophole open and in the end you give competitive advantage to wealthier teams.

2. Coaches should not be promoting a situation where injuries are encouraged through incentives.

Coaches can't violate league rules.

If they do, how can you ask players to respect league rules.
 

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zn said:
Not at all.

This is the real deal and for good reason.

For one thing this has nothing to do with "hits"--that's a side topic.

Non-contract awards for players are illegal in the NFL. They violate both the league constitution and the CBA.

They don't even have to lead to injuries. Merely the OFFER is illegal.
I dunno. I mean, I know this is primarily about offering non-contract bonuses and such, but there's WAY too much talk about the particulars and the language in those bonuses. "Take a guy out, and you're paid." I know that's not illegal, per se', but I think Goodell is focusing on that every bit as much as he's focusing on the rule-breaking aspect of the bonuses.

In my mind, this is two-fold. He can drop the hammer for the non-contract bonuses, AND he can further promote his agenda of player safety being of paramount importance. That also might help him push his agenda of an 18-game schedule at some point. Every chance he gets to make the game safer, furthers his cause. That last part is just my opinion, but it kinda fits.

Again, I know this is about the rules being broken. But I think it's more than that. The media is focusing on "the other part." To the point of outrage. If it's only about breaking the rules, then nobody would talk about the cart-offs or the individual player bounties.
 

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zn said:
interference said:
RamFan503 said:
Pretty obvious that this is a PR witch hunt being conducted as Goodell's personal vendetta. I would really like to see some reporters actually hit on that.
You've hit a big nail on the head there, as the league is a big machine now that ALL the sportswriters basically work for directly, or indirectly. Going against the NFL PR machine would almost certainly mean a huge hit to a sports writers prestige, and maybe even the end of their career. That's one of the big reasons I absolutely never ever trust the media hype coming out of this machine, for its merely management of public perception.

Not at all.

This is the real deal and for good reason.

For one thing this has nothing to do with "hits"--that's a side topic.

Non-contract awards for players are illegal in the NFL. They violate both the league constitution and the CBA.

They don't even have to lead to injuries. Merely the OFFER is illegal.

The NFL has a longstanding rule prohibiting “Non-Contract Bonuses.” Non-contract bonuses violate both the NFL Constitution and By-Laws and the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Clubs are advised every year of this rule in a memo from the commissioner. Citing Sections 9.1(C)(8), and 9.3(F) and (G) of the Constitution and By-Laws, the memo for the 2011 season stated:

“No bonus or award may directly or indirectly be offered, promised, announced, or paid to a player for his or his team’s performance against a particular team or opposing player or a particular group thereof. No bonuses or awards may be offered or paid for on field misconduct (for example, personal fouls to or injuries inflicted on opposing players).”

They are illegal for a couple of reasons.

1. Dancing around the cap sets a bad precedent. Keep that loophole open and in the end you give competitive advantage to wealthier teams.

2. Coaches should not be promoting a situation where injuries are encouraged through incentives.

Coaches can't violate league rules.

If they do, how can you ask players to respect league rules.
The Saints had 4 fines in 2009 - 2010 (I think it was only 4). So, if they were indeed running this outrageous bounty program that targeted player injury, you'd think that they would have been more effective at achieving their goals. If this is about player safety, then we should be talking about Fisher's Titan's who has many more fines in those two seasons.

The way the media has just pounded on this issue before the report came out, and the relentless focus on Williams tells me this is about something else. For example, affecting Vegas odds-makers makes a lot more sense to me as the real NFL concern than player safety.
 

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zn said:
Not at all.

This is the real deal and for good reason.

For one thing this has nothing to do with "hits"--that's a side topic.

Non-contract awards for players are illegal in the NFL. They violate both the league constitution and the CBA.

They don't even have to lead to injuries. Merely the OFFER is illegal.


They are illegal for a couple of reasons.

1. Dancing around the cap sets a bad precedent. Keep that loophole open and in the end you give competitive advantage to wealthier teams.

2. Coaches should not be promoting a situation where injuries are encouraged through incentives.

Coaches can't violate league rules.

If they do, how can you ask players to respect league rules.

Do you really believe that [bolded] or are you just trying to be contrarian? You really believe that if it were not for the idea that these "bounties" were directed at injuring players, anyone would really be talking about it much less calling for year long suspensions or lifetime bans? C'mon man.

I get that any type of bonuses are against league rules. I get that Goodell would be likely to penalize guys for doing it. But we'd be talking mere slaps on the wrist.

Everyone knows that this stuff has been going on for years. The REAL question is not whether the Saints and in particular Williams paid bonuses for great plays and I think you know that. The REAL question is - did he pay to have players injured.

The severity of the suspensions/fines will come down to the findings of that question - not IF he circumvented the collective bargaining agreement. We all know he did. We all know many coaches have during the same time frame and before him. Let's be real - not just argumentative.
 

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So if this whole "bountygate" is about intent to injure oppposing players, shouldnt the league be looking into teams whos players were repeatedly fined for illegal hits? this whole witch hunt has nothing to do with player safety that is just a guise to make the public think GW is a bad guy. If saints players were only fined 4 times for illegal hits the bounties must not have been much incentive to injure players, or the saints players werent willing to cross the line for a little extra cash.

And why is GW the face of this investagation? Shouldnt DL the steelers DC be investigated as he has 1 player on his defense James Harrison who was fined more often than the entire saints defense and even suspended for illegal hits yet this is all focused on GW. This plus the fact that SP isnt the one being pursued as the leader of all this, afterall he is the HC of the team that ran this bounty program, leads me to believe RG has a hidden agenda.

Is it to punish the Rams? Looks that way to me.
 

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RamBall said:
So if this whole "bountygate" is about intent to injure oppposing players, shouldnt the league be looking into teams whos players were repeatedly fined for illegal hits? this whole witch hunt has nothing to do with player safety that is just a guise to make the public think GW is a bad guy. If saints players were only fined 4 times for illegal hits the bounties must not have been much incentive to injure players, or the saints players werent willing to cross the line for a little extra cash.

And why is GW the face of this investagation? Shouldnt DL the steelers DC be investigated as he has 1 player on his defense James Harrison who was fined more often than the entire saints defense and even suspended for illegal hits yet this is all focused on GW. This plus the fact that SP isnt the one being pursued as the leader of all this, afterall he is the HC of the team that ran this bounty program, leads me to believe RG has a hidden agenda.

Is it to punish the Rams? Looks that way to me.

Every campaign needs a poster child. I honestly think it is that simple and also that insidious.
 

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RamFan503 said:
RamBall said:
So if this whole "bountygate" is about intent to injure oppposing players, shouldnt the league be looking into teams whos players were repeatedly fined for illegal hits? this whole witch hunt has nothing to do with player safety that is just a guise to make the public think GW is a bad guy. If saints players were only fined 4 times for illegal hits the bounties must not have been much incentive to injure players, or the saints players werent willing to cross the line for a little extra cash.

And why is GW the face of this investagation? Shouldnt DL the steelers DC be investigated as he has 1 player on his defense James Harrison who was fined more often than the entire saints defense and even suspended for illegal hits yet this is all focused on GW. This plus the fact that SP isnt the one being pursued as the leader of all this, afterall he is the HC of the team that ran this bounty program, leads me to believe RG has a hidden agenda.

Is it to punish the Rams? Looks that way to me.

Every campaign needs a poster child. I honestly think it is that simple and also that insidious.
One man's poster child is another man's escape-goat :)
 

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interference said:
RamFan503 said:
RamBall said:
So if this whole "bountygate" is about intent to injure oppposing players, shouldnt the league be looking into teams whos players were repeatedly fined for illegal hits? this whole witch hunt has nothing to do with player safety that is just a guise to make the public think GW is a bad guy. If saints players were only fined 4 times for illegal hits the bounties must not have been much incentive to injure players, or the saints players werent willing to cross the line for a little extra cash.

And why is GW the face of this investagation? Shouldnt DL the steelers DC be investigated as he has 1 player on his defense James Harrison who was fined more often than the entire saints defense and even suspended for illegal hits yet this is all focused on GW. This plus the fact that SP isnt the one being pursued as the leader of all this, afterall he is the HC of the team that ran this bounty program, leads me to believe RG has a hidden agenda.

Is it to punish the Rams? Looks that way to me.

Every campaign needs a poster child. I honestly think it is that simple and also that insidious.
One man's poster child is another man's escape-goat :)


Hey - watch it! That was the name of my landscape company while I was going to school in Chico - Scapegoat Landscape Co. :7up: